Originally posted by ?YLLAER
But anyway, the difference here is that the EU stuff surrounding the characters from the movies for the most part directly contradicts what we see in the G-Canon movies. You can't say the same thing regarding characters that don't feature in the movies.
Even if I were to agree to that fundamentalist interpretation, the fact remains that the EU is entirely subordinate to the films & TV series... not merely the EU that pertains to film & TV characters.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Even if I were to agree to that fundamentalist interpretation, the fact remains that the EU is entirely subordinate to the films & TV series... not merely the EU that pertains to film & TV characters.
One of the most powerful, and under-emphasized combat feats in the mythos occurs in TPM, with Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan Kenobi's super-speed.
I must once again cite Darth Wong:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet we have explicit confirmation that the Rule of Two was a success in this regard through each generation.He was the Sith'ari. But unless we interpret that prophecy illogically and literally ("a perfect being"😉, his cosmological and political importance has no bearing on his Force power.
Unless you'd be willing to confer the same to Palpatine simply by virtue of being history's most successful Sith?
Yeah, except we don't since that quote isn't nearly conclusive.
Except the description of the Sith'ari is "One who has freed themselves from all restrictions has reached perfection, their potential fulfilled. Perfect strength, perfect power, perfect destiny." Even if you don't take it literally, it still indicates strength as a large part of the Sith'ari. Recall that the first Sith'ari was called it because of his strength in battle.
The Rule of Two was largely founded upon the principle that secrecy and deception were the greatest weapons of the Sith, that if an apprentice was able to overcome his master using those means he rightfully succeeded him, and that the Sith could be considered as being more powerful based on such a succession in the sense that it reflects a methodologically more progressive hierearchy. We know that this happened multiple times and it simply doesn't logically follow that each generation of Sith would always grow more powerful (in the manner that we deal with the term) than the last. I acknowledge that the order's knowledge base increased over time but I don't know if we can say this would have particularly influenced the individual power of its members given that they always seemed to rely on the same few core abilities in combat. It would seem that natural talent would be far more important, and such an attribute would presumably be entirely random for the most part.
I can only assume that any text that states that they grew consecutively more powerful each generation is either referring to how resourceful the order was or is operating under an unrealistic interpretation of canon.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, except we don't since that quote isn't nearly conclusive.Except the description of the Sith'ari is "One who has freed themselves from all restrictions has reached perfection, their potential fulfilled. Perfect strength, perfect power, perfect destiny." Even if you don't take it literally, it still indicates strength as a large part of the Sith'ari. Recall that the first Sith'ari was called it because of his strength in battle.
And I'm not saying Bane is frail or a weak feeb, to borrow KT's terminology. I just don't think he's top 10 anymore.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZbecause there are too many peeps stronger than him
yeah i consider bane in my lower half of my top 10 sith, no doubt. my revised list would be:
1. Sidious
2. Plagueis
3. Vitiate
4. Caedus
5. Darth Krayt
6. Exar Kun
7. Tulak Hord
8. Darth vader
9. Darth Nox/Emperor's wrath
10. Darth Nox/Emperor's wrathi probably forgot some1
actually bane isnt even on my list lol
Edit: AND I left out nihilus
So anyway, any thoughts on who my final two should be?
Originally posted by Nephthys
My own Top 8 atm would be: Sidious, Plagueis, Vitiate, Bane, Nihilus, Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, Krayt.After that I'm torn between Vader, Marka Ragnos, Zannah, Malgus and Nox for the last two. Maybe Caedus, though no-one's yet changed my mind about him. sneer
Honorable mentions to the Emperors Wrath, Nyriss, Jadus, Uliq Qel'Droma, the First Son, Baras, Wyyrlok, Tyrannus and Karness Muur. Also the Dread Masters but obvs they don't count.
Originally posted by Nephthys
My own Top 8 atm would be: Sidious, Plagueis, Vitiate, Bane, Nihilus, Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, Krayt.After that I'm torn between Vader, Marka Ragnos, Zannah, Malgus and Nox for the last two. Maybe Caedus, though no-one's yet changed my mind about him. sneer
Honorable mentions to the Emperors Wrath, Nyriss, Jadus, Uliq Qel'Droma, the First Son, Baras, Wyyrlok, Tyrannus and Karness Muur. Also the Dread Masters but obvs they don't count.
I'm leaving out the ancient sith, 'cause their unknowns, and not-Vitiate TOR era sith, because I don't know any of them. I also haven't read Legacy, so...f*ck Krayt.
1. Sidious (Neph has flipped to our side yet again)
2. Plagueis
3. Vitiate
4. Bane
5. Caedus
6. Darth Nihilus
7. Darth Revan
8. Darth Vader
9. Darth Jadus ('cause I realized I was running out of sith)
10. Count Dooku
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only relevance that the story's medium has to the equation is the fact that there would be far greater constraints imposed on visual media (due to budget and time) than on literature. Animators have to vividly capture "lolz blow shiz up" whereas all Karpyshyn need do is lovingly detail it with words at a comparatively trivial cost.
In the past perhaps. With today's technology and with the kinds of budgets these games have, it really isn't that costly to animate big imagery at all, certainly not to the extent that it would be a meaningful barrier on what they creatively want to achieve.
I mentioned videogames as they are usually marketed in a visually exciting manner and every design decision is usually made to accomodate the kind of gameplay they wish to present, both of which would make designers more inclined to feature over the top, exciting action (and more improtantly this is indeed what the TFU designers were going for). Novels by comparison are concerned solely with telling a story and will usually have more of an emphasis on keeping things realistic and grounded.
More importantly, that Karpyshyn himself does not ascribe superiority to Bane over the likes of Revan or even Vader is in itself telling of his authorial intentions: He could have answered the question by saying "lolz Vader fights like an old man, Bane BLOWS UP TEMPLES AND DISINTEGRATES SHIT LOL" but elects not to.
Drew could very well consider Bane the most powerful of the three, he basically chose not to give his opinion on the matter.
Even in the realm of Lucas-canon, we observe a noticeable increase in choreography and performance from characters (not just Jedi and Sith). In the OT, they moved awkwardly and clumsily, lifting X-wings with constipated expressions; in the PT, they move smoothly and fluidly at greater speeds and with greater agility, throwing mini-van sized Senate pods like frisbees;
Now here's where technological limitations would account for such differences (though for what it's worth George does give in-universe explanations for those variances).
in the Clone Wars microseries, characters annihilate armies and use Trade Federation landing craft like an Asian might wield gongs; in the Clone Wars CGI series, fighters openly engage in acrobatics despite the presence of heavy armor; Darth Maul drags a Jedi shuttle around like Tonka toys, Savage Opress destroys a room by merely flexing. And, in fact, you even notice a Power Creep between Clone Wars seasons 2 & 3+.
Likewise with videogames, cartoons will also have a higher propensity for over the top action, and in the case of the original CW cartoon I believe this was also the intention as it was with TFU.
Stylistic variance simply does exist.
Indeed they do, but not always, and I don't think the Bane trilogy is an example where you can say they do.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't recall making that opine.Anyway, Vader, Marka Ragnos, Zannah, Malgus, Caedus, Emperors Wrath, Nyriss, Jadus, Uliq Qel'Droma, the First Son, Baras, Wyyrlok, Tyrannus, Karness Muuror or Nox? Pick two.
Caedus, vader, and arguably nox/emperor's wrath are ahead of bane, so...
wait, so you don't think vitiate > sidious?
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't recall making that opine.Anyway, Vader, Marka Ragnos, Zannah, Malgus, Caedus, Emperors Wrath, Nyriss, Jadus, Uliq Qel'Droma, the First Son, Baras, Wyyrlok, Tyrannus, Karness Muuror or Nox? Pick two.
Caedus and Vader.
And, upon further arbitrary mathematics, I'd flip Vader above Darth Revan.