Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering Satele herself calls the Hero of Tython the orders greatest champion, I disagree with her being above him/her.Agreed on Kyp.
V Oh yeah. The Hero beat Vitiate while Revan got owned by him, so I'd switch those two also.
The Hero of Tython defers to Satele when discussing the assault on Dromund Kaas. Well the light side choice anyways.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats a good point, but even in her prime Satele was only matching Baras and was losing to Malgus. She's clearly intensely powerful, but nowhere near the Emperor. As Ares pointed out, Baras didn't really match the Wrath or Satele in lightsabers, nor is the Wrath the Hero's equal. As for the Hero being outmatched in TK and the Force, I think thats wrong. Firstly because the Hero is shown blocking Vitiates Force powers and beating him and Vitiate is a lot more powerful than Satele. The Hero can weather Vitiates attacks, when I seriously doubt Satele could. Secondly, a darkside choice has the Hero overpowering Vitiate in TK and killing him.As for her being the Emperor's greatest foe, I think that was said but a) I don't know where, the context or if it was and b) its wrong.
Yeah, I guess you can say he wasn't owned, even if he was beaten inside of a page, but my point is that Revan lost while the Hero didn't. And no, its been pretty conclusively shown that it wasn't Vitiates voice, one of the lead writers for the Knight campaign said "The Jedi Knight defeats the Emperor at the end, and the Emperor's body does die.” And even if he was weakened, he was on an extremely potent darkside nexus which would boost him and weaken the Hero and the Hero has to fight through Kaas City and the Imperial Guard at the Dark Temple to get to him, so its not as if HoT was walking into that fight whistling either.
1. Matching Baras is impressive, and her losing to Malgus was before her prime. And what evidence doesn't suggest Wrath=Hero? At the very least, all 4 SWTOR orbitals are on the same level. Didn't the Warrior class also beat Vitiate's voice?
Also, Ares, Baras was a lightsaber specialist. Not a force beast.
2. Didnt Plagues state Vitiate's spirit survived, and returned to its original body, and Vitiate only had only truly died a few centuries before the events of "Plagues"? I'm pretty sure it was a voice, dude. Also--Revan fought a non-weakened Vitiate on the same Nexus. :/
Revan>Hero is still quite arguable.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. Matching Baras is impressive, and her losing to Malgus was before her prime. And what evidence doesn't suggest Wrath=Hero? At the very least, all 4 SWTOR orbitals are on the same level. Didn't the Warrior class also beat Vitiate's voice?Also, Ares, Baras was a lightsaber specialist. Not a force beast.
Well Ares claims that they only really crossed blades like once, so maybe she doesn't really match Baras.
The Hero beat Vitiate. 😐 And the Voice the Wrath beat was possessed and had Vitiate fighting for control of it and trying to let the Wrath kill him. Plus he'd been fighting Sel-Makor for ages.
Erm, no not really. Baras is listed in the Notable Sith Inquisitor section. Als note that Baras doesn't even have his lightsaber out in the first part of the duel and likewise has it clipped at the end.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
2. Didnt Plagues state Vitiate's spirit survived, and returned to its original body, and Vitiate only had only truly died a few centuries before the events of "Plagues"? I'm pretty sure it was a voice, dude. Also--Revan fought a non-weakened Vitiate on the same Nexus. :/Revan>Hero is still quite arguable.
Da fuq? Did he? Someone get me a quote here if so, because wat?
It wasn't the same nexus. The Dark Temple is a much more potent nexus than Dromund Kaas, if Kaas even really is one. No-one is ever mentioned as being amped on Kaas or the darkside affecting anything.
Not really. The Heroes above Revan quite solidly.
As I said even if he was weakened, he was on an extremely potent darkside nexus which would boost him and weaken the Hero and the Hero has to fight through Kaas City and the Imperial Guard at the Dark Temple to get to him, so its not as if HoT was walking into that fight whistling either. Besides which before the fight he can replenish his energy if you go to save one of your allies.
Just T7, your astromech.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sorry for double-post, but where does Celeste Mourne fit into all of this? Does her connection to Karness Muur make her not count, or something?
Well, on her own she's very skilled, possibly in the top 10 of her era, but not top-10 of all time material. Once she's got a century under her belt and can draw upon the talisman, she's even stronger, but still, probably *near* the all-time chart rather than in it.
It's only when she gives Muur free reign that we're really talking top-list levels, and of course that's not very Jedi at that point.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As I said even if he was weakened, he was on an extremely potent darkside nexus which would boost him and weaken the Hero and the Hero has to fight through Kaas City and the Imperial Guard at the Dark Temple to get to him, so its not as if HoT was walking into that fight whistling either. Besides which before the fight he can replenish his energy if you go to save one of your allies.Just T7, your astromech.
When Vitate beats Revan, Vitate is not only at full power but has access to a dark side nexus as well. And it's not like Revan was operating at peak performance either. He had just woken up from a drug induced stupor that he had been in for over a year a mere day before his battle with Vitiate.
Not the same nexus.
Originally posted by Master Han
Yet the same issues apply to Revan.
Lawl, Dromund Kaas isn't as strong a nexus as the Dark Temple and Revan only had to fight through one Imperial Guard while the HoT has to fight through an entire temple of them. Plus Vitiate has 300 years on the version Revan fought.
And the HoT doesn't let her trusty astromech get disintegrated. estahuh
Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no indication Revan was hindered by the drugs, especially since Bane learned the ability to purge his system of toxins from Revan.
Obviously these drugs surpassed his anti-toxin abilities, or else he would have escaped long ago.
Nor is it said he was diminished by his years of captivity.
Yeah, but it's a reasonable and logical inference.
It isn't comparable because the HoT won. She wasn't even out of breath.
Since it's safe to conclude that Revan fought a stronger Vitiate, all things considered, in a lesser state, it certainly is very comparable.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nor is it said he was diminished by his years of captivity.
😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't comparable because the HoT won. She wasn't even out of breath.
Except we can't state that the version of Vitate she faced was as powerful as the one Revan faced.
Admittedly, I haven't played through the full JK storyline, but wasn't that the whole reason he attacked at that time was due to the fact that Vitiate was weakened?
If he was weakened you'd think the text would note that at some point. Revan was in captivity for 300 years til TOR yet when released is none the worse for wear.
Originally posted by Master Han
Obviously these drugs surpassed his anti-toxin abilities, or else he would have escaped long ago.
Not after he'd escaped and regained his Force powers. If he can catch Nyriss' lightning, I don't see why he couldn't purge his system of the drugs.
Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, but it's a reasonable and logical inference.
Perhaps.
Originally posted by Master Han
Since it's safe to conclude that Revan fought a stronger Vitiate, all things considered, in a lesser state, it certainly is very comparable.
It isn't safe to conclude that. Vitiate recovers if you go lightside and save your friends, had 300 years extra growth and he was on a much stronger nexus and the HoT went into the fight weaker than Revan did (Vitiate specifically says you've depleted your energy).
Originally posted by Nephthys
If he was weakened you'd think the text would note that at some point. Revan was in captivity for 300 years til TOR yet when released is none the worse for wear.
Why?
A novel doesn't have to point every single intricacy concerning power levels. He hasn't had any practice for well over a year. Logically he is going to be out of shape and practice.
The same holds true for his reemergence in TOR.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate recovers if you go lightside and save your friends, had 300 years extra growth and he was on a much stronger nexus and the HoT went into the fight weaker than Revan did (Vitiate specifically says you've depleted your energy).
Have a quote where it says Vitiate recovered?
Anyway here is the codex entry which confirms Vitiate is weakened for those interested: "You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all."
