Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. Dooku is a DSer... Vaapad works well against DSers
It's your personal opinion, not a fact.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I've already proven that Dooku's style can't go head on with somebody using powerful strikes like Anakin and mace. Nobody is saying he'll just lose right away. However, as narration makes clear, eventually he'll get worn down and taken out.
No, you had prove nothing. This narration that you have used is opposite to movie.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
CANON NARRATION IS GREATER THAN YOUR OPINION. Canon narration says it can't go against certain forms using two handed powerful strikes.
THIS CANON NARRATION (I LOVE CAPSLOCK !!!!111oneoneone) is oppoiste to movie. So it's not a canon.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Anakin at that point ISN'T stronger than mace or more powerful. . Mace is his superior in the force and in sabers. What exactly is anakin better at again?
Anakin is physically stronger, and have much more raw power in the force.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The novel makes it crystal clear which you conceded... says Dooku had to seperate them or else he would be taken out. How could somebody be stomping someone yet needing to seperate them or else he'll lose.
Another Stover's BS. DP already shown you, that in the movie it looks quite different.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The novel made it clear they were faking forms and there is NOTHING in the movie to suggest they weren't. So that stands as canon.
I've already proven you, that in the movie it's clear that they weren't.
^ Thanks for addressing those points Zett. I really can't be bothered going around in circles on the issue anymore.
I've explained Makashi's effectiveness in fencing against all other forms including the ones with more "kinetic energy."
I've explained how Vapaad won't just feed off the Darksider until Mace becomes more powerful than him. If that was true Mace and Sidious wouldn't have reached an impasse. And Bulq would not have been totally outclassed by Dooku. I've also explained how Shatterpoint is not a guaranteed victory. Never was.
I've proven Dooku and Mace being peers from canon narration and previous fights.
I've proven Dooku was besting the ROTS Kenobi/Skywalker duo before Skywalker went into his Uber State.
I've shown/proven that there's no way Sith Anakin was more powerful than Zone Anakin. (Probably the opposite in fact).
And there's loads of evidence Skywalker has more raw power than any other Jedi, except perhaps Yoda, on top of having enormous physical strength.
I've also shown evidence of Makashi's excellent defensive abilities, and Dooku's prowess as a combatant in combining Force Attacks mid-Saber combat. Given his superior force mastery that combination should aid him in holding off Windu all day.
Of course all those proof's, explanations, showings and logic is all falling on deaf ears here.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Thanks for addressing those points Zett. I really can't be bothered going around in circles on the issue anymore.I've explained Makashi's effectiveness in fencing against all other forms including the ones with more "kinetic energy."
I've explained how Vapaad won't just feed off the Darksider until Mace becomes more powerful than him. If that was true Mace and Sidious wouldn't have reached an impasse. And Bulq would not have been totally outclassed by Dooku. I've also explained how Shatterpoint is not a guaranteed victory. Never was.
I've proven Dooku and Mace being peers from canon narration and previous fights.
I've proven Dooku was besting the ROTS Kenobi/Skywalker duo before Skywalker went into his Uber State.
I've shown/proven that there's no way Sith Anakin was more powerful than Zone Anakin. (Probably the opposite in fact).
And there's loads of evidence Skywalker has more raw power than any other Jedi, except perhaps Yoda, on top of having enormous physical strength.
I've also shown evidence of Makashi's excellent defensive abilities, and Dooku's prowess as a combatant in combining Force Attacks mid-Saber combat. Given his superior force mastery that combination should aid him in holding off Windu all day.
Of course all those proof's, explanations, showings and logic is all falling on deaf ears here.
Preach it Darth.
@DP
This part of your post about Bulq is quite interesting for me. Well, i'm wondering about one thing. Windu was able (thanks to Vapaad) to overcome skill's difference between Sidious and him. Vapaad made him totaly equal to Sidious in sabers.
In fact, it looks like Bulq and Billaba were able to do the same to Mace. He was, for sure, better fencier then those two, but both of them fought him equally.
As we all know, Vapaad is very similar to Juyo (some people can say, that Vapaad is a Juyo's version for jedi, other people can say that Vapaad is Juyo's final version). Despite that, it looks like Vapad's user could feed himself on both - Vapaad an Juyo's users.
And if Bulq, who was't even close to Windu in skill, could fought him equally, and can't do the same with Count...
Well, I guess, that Vapaad users weren't able to fed themselves on Count's Makashi.
So if it goes to ure skill, Count and Mace are pretty even, and Dooku is better with the force:
1) Mace considered himself as not even close to Yoda in TK (Shatterpoint)
2) Mace had less rawpower in the force then Tiin (he even considered Tiin stronger then himself in TK)
3) Dooku shown, that he's able to easily block his own lightning with his bare hands. We can be sure, if Mace is able to do that. And Mace wont be able to use ligtning on his own.
4) Dooku's guard in the force looks a bit better, since he was untouchable for Bulq, while Mace wasn't.
I doubt Vapaad actually equalizes the skill differential. It was the rage, power and fury of Sidious's Saber Attacks which Mace was able to deflect back at him. That on top of already having a similar level of skill is what made them equals imo.
But yeah Vapaad didn't do squat for Bulq against Dooku. And Dooku ended up lecturing Bulq on Vapaad and the true power of the dark side suggesting Dooku knows how to handle Vapaad.
I think it could just be Makashi as a fencing style lacking the "kinetic energy" in the first place, makes it difficult to deflect back to it's source, because there was never much power put into it's strikes in the first place.
So Ironically the "kinetic energy" thing which KT is claiming as Makashi's weakness, may actually be a strength against Vapaad.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I doubt Vapaad actually equalizes the skill differential. It was the rage, power and fury of Sidious's Saber Attacks which Mace was able to deflect back at him. That on top of already having a similar level of skill is what made them equals imo.But yeah Vapaad didn't do squat for Bulq against Dooku. And Dooku ended up lecturing Bulq on Vapaad and the true power of the dark side suggesting Dooku knows how to handle Vapaad.
I think it could just be Makashi as a fencing style lacking the "kinetic energy" in the first place, makes it difficult to deflect back to it's source, because there was never much power put into it's strikes in the first place.
So Ironically the "kinetic energy" thing which KT is claiming as Makashi's weakness, may actually be a strength against Vapaad.
How do you explain that Mace Windu defeated Palpatine? Vaapad's superconducting loop relates to Force ability, not styles' mechanical sequences, and Dooku, despite using the elegant makashi, is still a dark sider who relies on his hate and anger to give him power. It also is not merely an equalizer; if Windu and Dooku are both a "50" in Force mastery, there's no reason why Windu still cannot leach some of that number onto his own score, thus giving him the edge. I don't see how Sora Bulq's vaapad can be compared to Windu's, since only one defeated Darth Sidious.
Furthermore, it's not as though "Dooku > Windu in technical skill" is a given; Mace Windu helped invent "the deadliest" lightsaber style, or rather, in his eyes, perfect a lightsaber form that had previously gone relatively unchanged for thousands of years. Dooku may have had the edge pre-TPM, and even by AotC, but by RotS?
^^^^ Exactly
Mace's combat feats are greater than Dooku
Mace has defeated somebody that is the canon superior to Dooku.. in fact.. somebody that can be argued is the canon superior to any sith lord ever
Mace can and would get an amp from Vaapad thanks to Dooku being a DSer, and it being confirmed you can sense it in him during combat
Mace being relatively equal in skill to Dooku means that Shatterpoint and Vaapad would clearly give him the edge
Sparring matches mean **** all to a regular fight. They are just sparring. See Allen Iverson.. Practice.. we're talking about Practice here?
Originally posted by Throwaway
How do you explain that Mace Windu defeated Palpatine?
Iirc it was by leading Palpatine to the window ledge where he was forced to slow down. A tactical advantage according to the novel, possibly an extension of Windu's Shatterpoint ability.
But he didn't defeat Sidious through Vapaad. He reached an Impasse with Sidious through Vapaad.
Originally posted by Throwaway
Vaapad's superconducting loop relates to Force ability,
All force abilities? Does it? Because both in the novel and the script Sidious almost wins the fight by slamming Mace with a Force push.
Originally posted by Throwaway
not styles' mechanical sequences, and Dooku, despite using the elegant makashi, is still a dark sider who relies on his hate and anger to give him power. It also is not merely an equalizer; if Windu and Dooku are both a "50" in Force mastery, there's no reason why Windu still cannot leach some of that number onto his own score, thus giving him the edge.
Again, Vapaad aided Mace in reaching an Impasse with Sidious. He didn't surpass him through Vapaad. So it does seem to be an equalizer.
Also the line about "deflecting the shadow's fury back to it's source as a lightsaber deflects blaster bolts" does seem to suggest a technical aspect to the "loop" in addition to the metaphysical one.
Originally posted by Throwaway
I don't see how Sora Bulq's vaapad can be compared to Windu's, since only one defeated Darth Sidious.
I'm not claiming Bulq is Mace's equal. He obviously is not. But he was a legendary lightsaber instructor who aided Mace in developing Vapaad, and was said to know the form almost as well as Mace.
Point is, he didn't simply "feed" off Dooku's power. In fact he didn't even equalize Dooku in power, which would further suggest Vapaad just might not be as effective against Dooku as people seem to assume.
Originally posted by Throwaway
Furthermore, it's not as though "Dooku > Windu in technical skill" is a given; Mace Windu helped invent "the deadliest" lightsaber style, or rather, in his eyes, perfect a lightsaber form that had previously gone relatively unchanged for thousands of years. Dooku may have had the edge pre-TPM, and even by AotC, but by RotS?
Oh I'd definitely put them both right at the top in terms of technical skill. One is a high end master of multiple forms and the creator of the deadliest and most demanding.
The other is also well trained and proficient in all forms whilst having spent 7 decades becoming the foremost master of the best fencing form.
I'd give Dooku just a slight edge in fencing "skill," and an edge in force mastery.
I'd give Mace the Shatterpoint and Physical advantage.
All out I actually do give Mace the edge (as I've said in my first post). But I also think Dooku, combining his Fencing skill and Force mastery together as well as he does, could probably hold Mace off indefinitely. In other words I see a stalemate happening more times than not.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Iirc it was by leading Palpatine to the window ledge where he was forced to slow down. A tactical advantage according to the novel, possibly an extension of Windu's Shatterpoint ability.
Yes, but as one can see from the films, Windu was driving Palpatine back after the sith lord's initial advantage.
But he didn't defeat Sidious through Vapaad. He reached an Impasse with Sidious through Vapaad.
Yes, an impasse with Sidious translating into an advantage over Dooku. Later, you suggest that the phrase "impasse" suggests that vaapad, for some reason, only works so far as to equalize the two combatant's abilities (although IDK why, since Windu is leeching off Sidious's DS energies but primarily drawing on LS energies, so why would vaapad set some sort of equilibrium law?), yet, from what I recall, vaapad was pushed to its limits by Sidious, hence why Windu was only able to match him.
Windu would naturally draw as much of Dooku's DS energy as his vaapad will allow him, plus his own inner darkness, plus his own LS baseline, and given he closely matches Dooku in technical skill, is younger and stronger, and has shatterpoint, I'd give him, like yourself, an edge, but a more definite one.
All force abilities? Does it? Because both in the novel and the script Sidious almost wins the fight by slamming Mace with a Force push.
That doesn't happen in the movies. 😉 And it hardly suggests that Palpatine had a stronger Force push, just because he "almost" wins the fight.
Also the line about "deflecting the shadow's fury back to it's source as a lightsaber deflects blaster bolts" does seem to suggest a technical aspect to the "loop" in addition to the metaphysical one.
I dissent; the term "shadow's fury" suggests to me that it's a metaphysical loop being compared by metaphor to a physical "loop" as a descriptor.
I'm not claiming Bulq is Mace's equal. He obviously is not. But he was a legendary lightsaber instructor who aided Mace in developing Vapaad, and was said to know the form almost as well as Mace.Point is, he didn't simply "feed" off Dooku's power. In fact he didn't even equalize Dooku in power, which would further suggest Vapaad just might not be as effective against Dooku as people seem to assume.
As you pointed out, Bulq isn't Mace's equal. He hadn't truly mastered vaapad. Windu, on the other hand, used vaapad to match blades with Dooku's master.
Okay...when will you people EXCEPT THAT YOUR IDOLS AND FAVORITE CHARACTERS ARE NOT AS POWERFUL AS YOU THINK THEY ARE!.
In the movie I saw Sidious got his ASS handed to him by Mace.
Mace got the jump on Sidious....Sidious was CRYING LIKE A *****!. SIDIOUS WAS BEGGING ANAKIN FOR HELP! A REAL SITHLORD LIKE TULAK HORD WOULD NEVER LOWER HIMSELF TO THAT LEVEL HE WOULD HAVE SIMPLY CUT OF WINDUS HEAD IN 1SECOND! BUT NO SIDIOUS HAD TO RESORT TO TRICKRY TO WIN! JUST LIKE HOW SIDIOUS HAD TO SEND ANAKIN AND ARMIES OF CLONES TO STORM THE JEDI TEMPLE WHICH ONLY HAD LIKE 150JEDI...TULAK HORD DEFEATED THOUSANDS OF JEDI AT ONCE WITH COMPLETE AND TOTAL EASE! TULAK WOULD HAVE CHARGED INTO THE JEDI TEMPLE AND MURDERED THEM ALL WITH NO HELP!.
If Sidious was even half as powerful as a REAL AND POWERFUL SITHLORD LIKE NAGA SADOW, FOR EXAMPLE he would have PULLED OUT HIS SABER AND KILLED MACE IN 1SWING...PERIOD!.
Mace is good but is FAR FAR FAR FAR weaker then the Great Ancient Sithlords and the KOTOR Elite. Mace would get killed in 1second with the aid of 10Jedi by a real Sithlord such as Darth Revan.
As for this fight....MACE PWNS DOOKU. Mace got the jump on and ****ing PWNED Dookus master...wasint even CLOSE...DOOKU IS A PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A SITHLORD!. Mace would simply give DOOKU A BEATDOWN WITH VAAPAD UNTIL DOOKU DIES...ALL THE OLD **** HAS TO LOOK FORWARD TO IS DEATH AND GETTING HIS ASS SABERPWNED BY MACE.
I seriously wonder about this forum.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Or make a brick fall on Windu's head.
Sidious got his ass CHUCKED BY A WEAKASS HALF CYBORG HALF MAN ****ER.........LIKE A *****.NAGA BLEW UP STARS, SIDIOUS COULDINT EVEN PUT A WHOLE IN MACE ****ING WINDUS CAPE. SIDIOUS CAN'T EVEN BEAT A FUNNY BLACK WEAK JEDI LIKE MACE A TRUE SITH LIKE NAGA SADOW WOULD KILL HIM IN 1SECOND.
Originally posted by Throwaway
Vaapad's superconducting loop relates to Force ability, not styles' mechanical sequences, and Dooku, despite using the elegant makashi, is still a dark sider who relies on his hate and anger to give him power.
You're wrong here. Dooku doesn't relies on hate, anger or fury.
He called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling inside his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him.
Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life untilDarth Sidious had shown him that it had
been his all along. Thedark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center.
He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will.
Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physicaleye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilaratingprecision. - M. Stover, ROTS Novel.
Yeah, Dooku empowered himself with the dark side, it's true. He made his perception greater, he empowered his body. But still, he doesn't use fury, aggression and hate during his fights, because Makashi doesn't demands it.
And now something about Vaapad/Juyo:
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowedboth ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirectsa blaster bolt. - M. Stover, ROTS Novel.
So, Mace was able to reflected Palpatine's fury, aggression and hate, because Palpatine used a "Sith style" called Juyo (which demands those negative feelings):
The Jedi teach six forms of lighstaber combat. This is excessive and a waste of time. There is no need for a Sith Lord to study any for that does not channel one's aggression.
(...)It is called Juyo - or, as my blademaster obscurely reffered to it, Vaapad - and it is a style the Jedi foolishly forbid. The key to this stale is the same as our core belief: Emotion, not peace, will lead to victory. With Juyo, you must give yourself over the sensations you feel in the heat of battle: hatred on your enemies; fury toward their actions; and fear that they may prevail. Yes, fear. It is a foolish to cover this emotion behind pride. - Palpatine, Book of the Sith.
Not a surprise, Jedi. It is a Sith style. - Palpatine, The Jedi Path p. 135 (about Juyo).
Makashi's fluid attacks and feints provided a critical edge during these duels to the death. (...)Howewer, I consider Form II the most disciplined of all forms, and I still encourage its study. - The Jedi Path's creator (I'm not sure).
A Count of Serenno doesn't need tricks, only a swift demonstration of superiority. - Dooku, The Jedi Path.
Dabbler in all, master of none. [b]My focus remains on Makashi. - Dooku, The Jedi Path, p. 139.
As you see, Makashi's master are most disciplined. Dooku is determined to focus on Makashi. He's also too pride, to be able to use Juyo succesfully.
Almost all of the Sith are using their emotions, coz Juyo - Sith style - demands it. But Dooku is not like most of them.