Re: top 10 saber duelists
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
whom are they? my list is:Luke
Yoda/sidious/Caedus
yoda/sidious/Caedus
yoda/sidious/Caedus
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
dooku/mace/maybe plagueis
anakin (ROTS)
Darth Bane (DoE)
If this is in order then ROTS Anakin needs to be above Count Dooku.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
im too lazy to put it in tiers, lolbut why HoT so high? doesnt he have not many feats with lightsaber?
Well, he defeated [a weakened] Vitiate primarily through bladework, as well as plenty of high level sith lords. Satele Shan calls him "our greatest champion" or something - it seems that he's prodigiously gifted with a blade. I guess we could rank him lower, if we've underestimated the role his undetermined Force abilities have on his victories. But, the Revan novel sort-of implies that he's stronger than Revan.
Exar Kun is said to have mastered Niman to a point where only Ulic could hold up against him. Considering Kun's saberstaff was small and granted him unbelievable speed. And remember, after his physical death, no ever mastered Niman the way he did. The only one close to it was Darth Maul, but he was more of a Jar'Kai/Juyo specialist. I think for this alone he probably mastered Niman like Dooku mastered Makashi.
Speaking of Maul, Maul was likely the highest trained Sith of all time. He is a product of 20 years of intense training. He basically defeated both Kenobi and Jinn in TPM. In his revival, he became more powerful, able to keep up with a more experienced, more powerful Kenobi with the help of his brother. In his final duel, he nearly defeated Sidious. This is Sidious. The man who moves so fast that Anakin couldn't follow him in the Mace Windu vs. Palpatine battle. The fact that Maul can move just as fast is extremely impressive. The fact that Maul didn't just die in seconds (cough Fisto, Kolar, Tinn cough) is amazing. This means Maul is already above nearly all the masters in the Jedi Order, being basically only below Mace Windu and Yoda. Maul's kills include Anoon Bondara, Pre Vizsla, Qui Gon Jinn, all of the Black Sun, and one more person I can't remember. Maul is a master of Juyo, and has expert skill in Niman and Jar'Kai.
Dooku is the master of Makashi. He is an expert at blast delfection and has held his own against multiple opponents such as Anakin and Kenobi, Savage Opress and Ventress, Ventress and 2 Nightsisters masquerading as Jedi, Sora Bulq and Tholme, etc, effectively overcoming the two main weaknesses of Makashi. He has even held his own against Yoda and Mace, the two best duelists in the time that he dueled them. No one EVER mastered Makashi like Dooku.
Anakin's/pre suit Vader's Djem So was to the point where the only person who was seriously better than him was Mace Windu and Yoda. He defeated Dooku, and was on the verge of overpowering Kenobi. Hadn't he be so dumb and if the duel lasted longer, he would have killed Kenobi. He has defeated Ventress numerous times, killed Dooku Cin Drallig the previous and current battlemasters, defeated over 900 and jedi basically defeated Shaak Ti (she only survived because she ran away). He alsoovercame Djem So's major weakness. Lacking in mobility compared to other forms.
Mace created Vaapad, and was the only master of it, and his skill kept growing in it. He was described by Anakin as a "purple sphere of fire" and was movng so fast, Anakin couldn't follow. Anakin has reacted to ships moving at sub light speed. Mace has dueled Ventress and defeated her, dueled Sora Bulq to a stalemate, defeated his padawan Depa Bilaba, and has (arguably) defeated Sidious in saber combat, before being WTFpwned by lightning in his face. Mace has mastered all forms of saber combat.
Palpatine is probably the greatest user of Force Speed. Because of this, he killed 3 Jedi Masters in under a second or so. He was able to defeat Maul, kill Savage Opress, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, Kit Fisto, and with the help of Anakin slicing off his hand, kill Mace. He mastered all forms. He specialized in Juyo and Jar'Kai. I think that speaks enough for him.
Yoda mastered 6 of the 7 forms, specializing in Ataru. He had mastered Ataru to unbelievable levels. He was the greates duelist in the Jedi Order at the time of ROTS. He had Palpatine scared fort a second. He had Dooku running in their AOTC duel. I think this speaks enough for him.
Obi Wan Kenobi was a MASTER saber duelist. He had perfected Soresu to the point where he could walk through battalions of droids and come out UNSCATHED. He was able to block 20 strikes per second (as seen in the duel with Greivous). He was able to beat pre suit Vader. He had mastery of Ataru and Soresu, as well as advanced training in Shii Cho, Niman, and some hand to hand combat. As a padawan, he held his own against Maul. As a Master, he was able to match Dooku in sabers, beat Ventress, hold off against a resurrected Maul and his brother, kill Greivous, and beat pre suit Vader.
And Luke is just better than them.
Caedus I find hard pressed to find a decent feat besides fighting Grand Master Luke. I honestly think that ROTS Anakin, Kenobi, Sidious, Maul, Mace, and Yoda would hold their own vs. Grand Master Luke before being defeated. Maul, Kenobi and Mace would be defeated in about a minute (Kenobi would last 2 minutes since he's mastered Trollesu), and Anakin and Yoda would last 3 minutes before being wrecked.
Yes Caedus had the chance to kill a "boosted" Jaina Solo, but he was on the defensive, Jaina was using the shameful Force Rage to fuel her offense, and the sad thing is that she barely beat Caedus.
Revan is featless in saber combat. Beating a "boosted" Malak who isn't that powerful to begin with isn't a feat in my book. Revan's feats are in his force abilities, especially in the Tutaminis area.
Hero of Tython beat a weakened Vitiate who has quack ability in sabers.
wrong. he never "nearly defeated" sidious. as a matter of fact, sidious was toying with the brothers. and hell no, kenobi would probably not survive that long against Luke, nor would maul, and i might agree with the mace thing. i don't know where you get that malak isnt that powerful, especially when he was being amped by 20 jedi masters. all of the people on my list are better saber duelists than kenobi, except MAYBE DoE bane. and yes, i forgot exar kun, although all of the people on my list are ahead of him in that dept. except again, MAYBE bane.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
wrong. he never "nearly defeated sidious". as a matter of fact, sidious was toying with the brothers. and hell no, kenobi would probably not survive that long against Luke, nor would maul, and i might agree with the mace thing. i don't know where you get that malak isnt that powerful, especially when he was being amped by 20 jedi masters. all of the people on my list are better saber duelists than kenobi, except MAYBE DoE bane. and yes, i forgot exar kun, although all of the people on my list are ahead of him in that dept. except again, MAYBE bane.
First off, Maul nearly overpowered Sidious in a blade lock, and he was using Force Rage. It fueled him. If you saw the episode, you practically saw in Maul's face that he was on the verge of explosion. And he was able to force Sidious on the defensive. The likely fastest duelist of the era was being forced back by Maul. Maul is an excellent duelist. You don't just master Jar'Kai, Niman and Juyo, move 5 times faster than a normal human, and beat 2 high level Ataru specialists and get downplayed.
Malak needed to be amped by 20 masters to get any noticable saber ability to match Revan, who is previously featless in saber combat, and Malak STILL loses.
Kenobi's Soresu is definetely equal to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. The only reason Dooku beat Kenobi in ROTS was because of Dooku's expertise in the Force. Plus, Kenobi defeated a stronger and faster Djem So duelist in the form of pre-suit Darth Vader, I think Kenobi will defeat Bane. Anakin was getting mad that he couldn't bust through Kenobi's defenses. Do you really think if the Chosen One, the greatest Djem So duelist ever to live before Luke can't do it, that someone less than half of his potential will defeat Kenobi? Please.
Originally posted by XRKunSpeaking of Maul, Maul was likely the highest trained Sith of all time. He is a product of 20 years of intense training. He basically defeated both Kenobi and Jinn in TPM. In his revival, he became more powerful, able to keep up with a more experienced, more powerful Kenobi with the help of his brother. In his final duel, he nearly defeated Sidious.
He didn't come close to defeating Sidious. That's confirmed by the official site and by Dave Filoni.
He did however temporarily hold his own in a rage enhanced state.
And TCW Maul doesn't need Opress to "keep up" with Kenobi. He's fully capable of doing that by himself, and is more powerful than Kenobi in the Force.
Originally posted by XRKun
This is Sidious. The man who moves so fast that Anakin couldn't follow him in the Mace Windu vs. Palpatine battle. The fact that Maul can move just as fast is extremely impressive. The fact that Maul didn't just die in seconds (cough Fisto, Kolar, Tinn cough) is amazing.
That's true.
Originally posted by XRKun
This means Maul is already above nearly all the masters in the Jedi Order, being basically only below Mace Windu and Yoda. Maul's kills include Anoon Bondara, Pre Vizsla, Qui Gon Jinn, all of the Black Sun, and one more person I can't remember. Maul is a master of Juyo, and has expert skill in Niman and Jar'Kai.
TCW Maul is definitely below Yoda, Mace and Anakin. Maul and Kenobi seem on par although I can't help but feel Kenobi seems better when he fights Maul for the sake of the plot.
Any other Jedi he should defeat without any major problem.
Originally posted by XRKunKenobi's Soresu is definetely equal to Dooku's mastery of Makashi. The only reason Dooku beat Kenobi in ROTS was because of Dooku's expertise in the Force.
Yes but Kenobi didn't even see the Force Push and Choke coming, hence made no effort to defend against it. Despite the fact that it was Dooku who was outnumbered.
So I think Dooku simply outfought him. Which is confirmed in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
as a matter of fact, sidious was toying with the brothers.
There were certainly times when he was toying, like in his one on one with Opress. But having looked through everything Dave Filoni has said about the fight and reading official sources on the subject, I've not seen it confirmed anywhere that he was holding back the whole fight.
If anything Filoni suggests the contrary when he states Opress put up a better fight than Fisto/Tiin/Kolar.
So I think the ass kicking Sidious gave them was a pretty legitimate ass kicking.
Originally posted by Master Han
1. Luke
2. Yoda
3. Sidious
4. Hero of Tython/Caedus
5. Bane (RoT is his prime, IIRC)
6. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
7. Kas'im/Revan/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord
8. Obi Wan
9. Saba Sebatyne/Malgus/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo
10. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Maul
Update. Tiers rather than ranks, 'cause...yeah.
1. Luke/Yoda/Sidious
2. Caedus/Bane
3. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
4. Kas'im/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord/Obi Wan
5. Revan/Malgus
6. Seba Sebatyne/Corran Horn/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo/Maul/Satele Shan
7. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Ventress/Oppress/Shaak Ti/General Grievous
8. Everyone else that I didn't miss. And I left the HoT out for being relatively unknown.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He didn't come close to defeating Sidious. That's confirmed by the official site and by Dave Filoni.Oh, had no idea about that.
He did however temporarily hold his own in a rage enhanced state.
And TCW Maul doesn't need Opress to "keep up" with Kenobi. He's fully capable of doing that by himself, and is more powerful than Kenobi in the Force.
Exactly.
That's true.
TCW Maul is definitely below Yoda, Mace and Anakin. Maul and Kenobi seem on par although I can't help but feel Kenobi seems better when he fights Maul for the sake of the plot.
Any other Jedi he should defeat without any major problem.
IMO TCW Maul and ROTS Anakin are similar. Both are very good duelists, but you're right, ROTS Anakin is better. I was referring to TCW Anakin, who I believe TCW Maul is equal to.
Yes but Kenobi didn't even see the Force Push and Choke coming, hence made no effort to defend against it. Despite the fact that it was Dooku who was outnumbered.
So I think Dooku simply outfought him. Which is confirmed in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.
Ok. Fair enough.
There were certainly times when he was toying, like in his one on one with Opress. But having looked through everything Dave Filoni has said about the fight and reading official sources on the subject, I've not seen it confirmed anywhere that he was holding back the whole fight.
If anything Filoni suggests the contrary when he states Opress put up a better fight than Fisto/Tiin/Kolar.
So I think the ass kicking Sidious gave them was a pretty legitimate ass kicking.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But I personally think Maul should be up with Kenobi. Kenobi might have an edge over him, but not a whole tier.Unless your referring to TPM Maul.
I was referencing TPM Maul, since I really don't know much about his TCW incarnation.
Also not sure you should put Bane higher than Mace/Anakin/Dooku, unless it's Orbalisk Bane.
Well, his prodigious learning rate in PoD; his dancing in the rain in DoE; his being hailed as the sith'ari, etc.
Originally posted by Master Han
Update. Tiers rather than ranks, 'cause...yeah.1. Luke/Yoda/Sidious
2. Caedus/Bane
3. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
4. Kas'im/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord/Obi Wan
5. Revan/Malgus
6. Seba Sebatyne/Corran Horn/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo/Maul/Satele Shan
7. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Ventress/Oppress/Shaak Ti/General Grievous
8. Everyone else that I didn't miss. And I left the HoT out for being relatively unknown.
Ok what has Caedus done that makes him above Windu, Dooku, ROTS Anakin and even Maul?
Why is Maul so low? He is the probably the highest trained Sith of all time.
Kasim isn't equal to Kenobi. Kenobi defeated a stronger, faster Djem So duelist in the form of pre-suit Vader. Bane is DEFINETLY not as fast as pre-suit Vader. He probably comes close, but he isn't.
Bane shouldn't be this high. Dooku is faster, Windu is faster, Anakin is faster, arguably Maul is faster. Unless you think Bane can defeat Sidious is saber combat (cough Mace defeated Sids cough) or match him in speed (TCW Maul was able to match Sidious in speed in their duel on Mandalore).
My list?
Tier 1
Luke
Tier 2
Sidious
Yoda
Windu
Dooku
Tier 3
ROTS Anakin Skywalker
Tier 4
Darth Maul
Kyle Katarn
Exar Kun
Kyp Durron
Obi Wan Kenobi/Darth Caedus/Darth Bane
Tier 5
Tulak Hord
Darth Malgus
Satele Shan
Tier 6
Jinn/Koon/Kolar/Tinn/Fisto