top 10 saber duelists

Originally posted by XRKun
Why is Maul so low?

He isn't. 😉 This list only features the best in all history...and I should have added that I was referring to TPM Maul.

Kasim isn't equal to Kenobi. Kenobi defeated a stronger, faster Djem So duelist in the form of pre-suit Vader. Bane is DEFINETLY not as fast as pre-suit Vader. He probably comes close, but he isn't.

I'm extrapolating from his mastering every lightsaber form, being described as possibly the greatest duelist to ever live (to his time), and having not inconsiderable strength in the Force.

Bane shouldn't be this high. Dooku is faster, Windu is faster, Anakin is faster, arguably Maul is faster.

Bane's dancing in the rain feat is particularly impressive, and this occurs past his prime. He also demonstrates a massive learning rate, that even if decreased by two orders of magnitude past PoD, suggests great improvement by RoT.

Unless you think Bane can defeat Sidious is saber combat (cough Mace defeated Sids cough).

Windu was being overwhelmed until he sunk into vaapad.

My list?

Tier 1
Luke

Tier 2
Sidious
Yoda
Windu
Dooku

Luke - Sidious < Yoda - Dooku, IMO.

Tier 3
ROTS Anakin Skywalker

Tier 4
Darth Maul
Kyle Katarn
Exar Kun
Kyp Durron
Obi Wan Kenobi/Darth Caedus/Darth Bane

I'm assuming each tier isn't ordered (Obi Wan > Maul), and you're wayyyy underrating Caedus and Bane here.

TCW Maul>ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi. Maul got considerably stronger and faster.

Fighting GM Luke isn't the greatest feat in the world, but its a pretty good feat. I believe plenty of duelists can challenge Luke. In fact, i'll list them.

In addition to Caedus,

ROTS Anakin
Windu
Yoda
Sidious
Kenobi (only because of Trollesu)
Maul (matching Sidious in speed is a serious feat, considering Sidious moves faster than Anakin can follow, and that Anakin can react to ships moving at sub light speed)
Kyp Durron
Kyle Katarn
Exar Kun (he mastered Niman in the same fashion that Windu mastered Vaapad, no one has ever done it like he did)

And Tulak Hord.

Originally posted by XRKun
TCW Maul>ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi. Maul got considerably stronger and faster.

He doesn't seem > Kenobi in Sabers. In fact if anyone seems like they have the edge it's Kenobi. Though Maul seems more powerful.

Originally posted by XRKun
Maul (matching Sidious in speed is a serious feat, considering Sidious moves faster than Anakin can follow, and that Anakin can react to ships moving at sub light speed)

Maul only temporarily matched Sidious speed in a one-off Rage Enhanced state. It's not like it's every fight someone's going to kill his brother.

Just like Kenobi matching both Maul and Opress together was a one-off.

Also Sidious doesn't move faster than ships, so I don't buy the above logic. Skywalker doesn't need to "see" what he's reacting to. "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them"(Ben Kenobi to Luke Skywalker ANH).

There was the one fight where Kenobi was fighting Maul *and* Opress, and the end result was Opress losing an arm.

Originally posted by Master Han
Update. Tiers rather than ranks, 'cause...yeah.

1. Luke/Yoda/Sidious
2. Caedus/Bane
3. Windu/Anakin/Dooku/Katarn/Durron
4. Kas'im/Exar Kun/Tulak Hord/Obi Wan
5. Revan/Malgus
6. Seba Sebatyne/Corran Horn/Jaden Korr/Jaina Solo/Maul/Satele Shan
7. Kit Fisto/Agen Kolar/Ploo Koon/Cin Drallig/Anoon Bondara/Qui Gon Jinn/Ventress/Oppress/Shaak Ti/General Grievous
8. Everyone else that I didn't miss. And I left the HoT out for being relatively unknown.

Out of curiosity, where would you rank Plagueis, coz 8 seems to be to low for him IMHO.

Originally posted by Stigma
👆 I like this list.

Out of curiosity, where would you rank Plagueis, coz 8 seems to be to low for him IMHO.

Honestly, how much do we know about Plagueis's dueling acumen? We know that he's a "master duelist", and that he defeated that one apprentice his master had trained in secret...am I missing something?

the reason i put plagueis around dooku level is because he kinda trained sidious to where he was in TPM, and after that i don't think sidious ever used a lightsaber until ROTS, so...

Personally I put Plagueis on Sidious' level in terms of sabers.

Really. He's fast as ****, one of the strongest characters in the entire mythos, has insane durability and from his fight with Venamis he's obviously an extremely skilled duelist despite his neglect for the art. And he's one of the most powerful Sith ever.

hmm, that's true. would you say he's vitiate level overall?

Yes.

I did a post on how Kenobi would probably lose against Kas'im.

Originally posted by Zampanó
He is the originator of lightsaber combat as it is practiced in the era. More to the point, he is "beyond" such tricks:

Kas'im commends Bane on moving beyond rote repetition of his methods, indicating that Kas'im himself is beyond that level in all of the areas where those methods are used, to wit, all seven forms of lightsaber combat. (Also, this confirms that there are actually mechanical differences between forms, as opposed to just varying philosophies.) This is valuable in fighting even non-sequence users: "So by studying different styles, I could negate that advantage?" Kas'im has done exactly that. In much the way that Bane has internalized his shortcuts and grasped the overall dynamics of a given form, Kas'im has internalized lightsaber combat as a whole. This does not make him invulnerable, but it certainly "frees up" his mind for the "battle of wills" that occupies the higher planes of the conflict.

The accolade's context suggests that this is hardly a unique, legendary demonstration of prodigious skill, rather than a natural consequence of a certain level of blade mastery, if even that, a level that Kenobi, being a soresu prodigy and legendary duelist, has most certainly long surpassed. He informed Bane of this long before he was a remote match for Kas'im, or necessarily even at Sirak's level. It's like a master commenting that a student had effectively made his weapon an extension of his body; that's to be expected of all RL swordsmen. It's not particularly special.

Meanwhile, Kenobi's precognition is powerful. Possibly even uniquely good, he is described repeatedly (and poetically!) as attaining an unrivaled level of closeness with the Force. This is well chronicled in the Ep III novelization but I am not in charge of marshaling quotes for Kenobi. Suffice it to say that he is highly praised. However, this very openness to the Force is painted as something of a liability:

So even if Kenobi's precognition is particularly good, it faces a brand of Force usage that is specifically unhelpful to Jedi. Moreover, it faces a library of formal techniques that beggars other instructors as well as intuitive alternatives borne out of a creator's intimate understanding of the all possible forms involved in the fight. Thus, Kenobi's good precognition is more than matched by Kas'im's above average capacity available for "obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."

😉 Remind me of the context here. Did Obi Wan and Anakin not intentionally employ flawed movements to lure Dooku into a false sense of security? Did Dooku not muse that he could not take them both together?

So the only possible decisive characteristic comes down to lightsaber technique. But Kenobi's mastery of alternate forms is not nearly as advanced as Kas'im's own. As I've quoted and explained repeatedly, Kas'im is the source for the entirety of his students' muscle-memory for all of the variants of weapons they use. Meanwhile, Kenobi's attempts to use other forms of combat are labeled as "laughable" by Dooku. This is not an area where I believe that inter-era comparisons are valuable; the individual combatants have objective levels of knowledge: one is innovating on all fronts, while the other is noteworthy in one, and passable in others. That decision is not tough.

You're underestimating Kenobi here; he and Anakin intentionally fauxed their forms at the start of the duel, but when they pull off their gloves, Dooku finds himself astonished and hard pressed against both of them. Furthermore, Kenobi, in addition to having mastered soresu, has demonstrated a high level proficiency, and probable mastery, of ataru, jar'kai (insinuating nieman) and, if I recall correctly, shii cho. He doesn't compare to Kas'im in his breadth of technical skill, but is nonetheless hardly deficient. Especially given his intimate knowledge of djem so, knowing Anakin's movements inside and out.

What Obi Wan seems to have an advantage in is his depth of ability; it appears that his mastery of soresu surpasses Kas'im mastery of each individual form, however difficult this may be to conclusively prove either way, given the latter character's limited feats and accolades. I fail to see how Kas'im could penetrate the defenses of Obi Wan through bladework, where General Grievous, Count Dooku and Anakin Skywalker could not.

I wouldn't say Obi-Wans Soresu surpasses Kas'im's mastery of each form. Obi-Wan seems naturally gifted with Soresu, but Kas'im not only mastered the forms, but then spent decades perfecting each of them. He should know the forms inside and out with a similar degree of knowledge Kenobi has of his own form.

The Mace quote is:

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

Its certainly highly complmentary, but hardly enough to put him above Kas'im imo. And lets not forget that Mace seems to overestimate pretty much everyone.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't say Obi-Wans Soresu surpasses Kas'im's mastery of each form. Obi-Wan seems naturally gifted with Soresu, but Kas'im not only mastered the forms, but then spent decades perfecting each of them. He should know the forms inside and out with a similar degree of knowledge Kenobi has of his own form.

Yeah, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, there's nothing to suggest that Kas'im's mastery of any individual form matche's Kenobi's unique affinity with soresu. Technically understanding every move doesn't necessarily edge him over. Hence why plenty of high level Temple battlemasters ultimately lost to the likes of Maul, Anakin, etc.

The Mace quote is:

...

Its certainly highly complmentary, but hardly enough to put him above Kas'im imo. And lets not forget that Mace seems to overestimate pretty much everyone.

Firstly, Kenobi is being modest, even to himself, given that TCW demonstrates that he's beastly with jar'kai, and TPM tells us he knows ataru. Secondly, it's not just Windu's praise; it's Kenobi's demonstrated performances against, most particularly, Grievous and Anakin, and Dooku's own assessment of his abilities. His soresu allowed him to walk through a "hornet's nest" of blaster bolts from entire battalions and emerge unscathed.

It's difficult to conclude that Obi Wan would win. But Kas'im's going to have a hard time penetrating his soresu through sheer bladework. Dooku couldn't. Anakin couldn't.

BTW:

The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.

After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip.

^although I would question whether Grievous strikes as fast in the movies.

Sorry for the triple post. But ironically enough, the Obi Wan vs. Kas'im thread really convinced me that I/we've underestimated Kenobi.

I might give him the win over Kas'im.

I think its clear that Grievous is not actually that fast.

The RotS novel overhypes everyones capabilities. I see it as more or less non-canon now.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, there's nothing to suggest that Kas'im's mastery of any individual form matche's Kenobi's unique affinity with soresu. Technically understanding every move doesn't necessarily edge him over. Hence why plenty of high level Temple battlemasters ultimately lost to the likes of Maul, Anakin, etc.

Er, you mean evidence to the contrary other than the thing I just said right? That he'd mastered all the forms in years, "then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever."

Kenobi is good, but would you call his Soresu skills perfect? Beyond perfect? The sheer level of polish Kas'im put into his skills are beyond what Kenobi put into even Soresu.

And temple battlemasters lost to those guys because they were faster and more powerful. Kenobi is not faster and more powerful than Kas'im, so he isn't going to be able to power through Kas'im's skill through other advantages.

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, Kenobi is being modest, even to himself, given that TCW demonstrates that he's beastly with jar'kai, and TPM tells us he knows ataru. Secondly, it's not just Windu's praise; it's Kenobi's demonstrated performances against, most particularly, Grievous and Anakin, and Dooku's own assessment of his abilities. His soresu allowed him to walk through a "hornet's nest" of blaster bolts from entire battalions and emerge unscathed.

It's difficult to conclude that Obi Wan would win. But Kas'im's going to have a hard time penetrating his soresu through sheer bladework. Dooku couldn't. Anakin couldn't.

I'm not saying he's not impressive, just that I don't think he's as impressive as you're making him out to be, where he's some Soresu God and he knows the form beyond what Kas'im possibly could despite him spending decades perfecting his technique.

Anakin did actually. Its just that Anakin wasn't able to capitalize on it. And Dooku knocked him down twice in their duel. If you watch it, the amount of time Kenobi's actually fighting Dooku is... about twelve seconds. Literally, not counting when they're talking. Impressive defenses there Obi!

so now you think the books overhype the golden age of the jedi/sith? and that the TOR jedi and sith aren't overhyped? 😐

Yes, though only really RoTS, which very much does overhype its characters.

Why would the TOR-era be overhyped?