Originally posted by Bardock42
Who is Penrose? The physicist?
I believe so, yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Roger_Penrose_and_Stuart_Hameroff
Originally posted by Oliver North
I believe so, yes:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Roger_Penrose_and_Stuart_Hameroff
Well, I'm learning new stuff every day. I got his book Road to Reality, and only thought it was like an introduction to mathematics and physics, apparently it goes into his uncommon views later on...
Originally posted by Oliver North
Sam Harris is one of my favorite modern thinkers for exactly that reason. Also because he is of the same opinion as me regarding the personal use of drugs (using MDMA was one of the most relevant experiences in his life [b]as a neuroscientist). [/B]
Slightly off topic but I thought that MDMA was both neurotoxic even at low doses (that's arbitrary) and causes permanent changes and damage* to the brain from a single use.
*detected by GFAP expression, which is one of the absolute best acronyms to be assembled in the medical field...it's how gangster bate, yo.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I'm learning new stuff every day. I got his book Road to Reality, and only thought it was like an introduction to mathematics and physics, apparently it goes into his uncommon views later on...
he is potentially the person most responsible for my aversion to all things physics
Originally posted by dadudemon
Slightly off topic but I thought that MDMA was both neurotoxic even at low doses (that's arbitrary) and causes permanent changes and damage* to the brain from a single use.*detected by GFAP expression, which is one of the absolute best acronyms to be assembled in the medical field...it's how gangster bate, yo.
I can't speak specifically about that, but I do know that something like the LD:50 of pure MDMA is physically impossible to achieve (you can't consume the substance fast enough to kill you [essentially...]).
neurotoxic? lol, no, in fact, most deaths attributed to even the impure version, ecstacy, come from people mismanaging their water intake (too much or too little) during the trip. The "rave scare" of the 90's-2000's saw a massive introduction of what turns out to be 100% inaccurate misinformation being fed to the public by the government, and it seems like what you are talking about would be akin to that.
That being said, even with substances like ketamin, where changes in neurochemistry have been documented after a single dose, behavioural changes are almost never found.
information was the first casualty of the war on drugs /shrug
EDIT:
Harm assessmentThe UK study placed great weight on the risk for acute physical harm, the propensity for physical and psychological dependency on the drug, and the negative familial and societal impacts of the drug. They did not evaluate or rate the negative impact of 'ecstasy' on the cognitive health of ecstasy users, e.g., impaired memory and concentration. Based on these factors, the study placed MDMA at number 18 in the list of 20 harmful drugs.
David Nutt, a former chairman of the UK Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, stated in the Journal of Psychopharmacology in January 2009, that 'ecstasy' use compared favorably with horse riding in terms of risk, with the drug leading to around 30 deaths a year in the UK compared to about 10 from horse riding, and "acute harm to person" occurring in about one in 10,000 episodes of 'ecstasy' use compared to about one in 350 episodes of horse riding. Dr. Nutt noted the lack of a balanced risk assessment in public discussions of MDMA:
[quote]The general public, especially the younger generation, are disillusioned with the lack of balanced political debate about drugs. This lack of rational debate can undermine the trust in government in relation to drug misuse and thereby undermining the government's message in public information campaigns. The media in general seem to have an interest in scare stories about illicit drugs, though there are some exceptions (Horizon, 2008). A telling review of 10-year media reporting of drug deaths in Scotland illustrates the distorted media perspective very well (Forsyth, 2001). During this decade, the likelihood of a newspaper reporting a death from paracetamol was in [sic] per 250 deaths, for diazepam it was 1 in 50, whereas for amphetamine it was 1 in 3 and for ecstasy every associated death was reported.
[...]
The most carefully designed study so far, compared the effect on cognitive skills in 52 'ecstasy' users against 59 very closely matched nonusers. The study eliminated potential confounding factors such as the use of other drugs and history of drug use. The study found no short- or long-term differences in cognitive skills in the test group (users) versus the control group (nonusers).[/quote]
Originally posted by Oliver North
I can't speak specifically about that, but I do know that something like the LD:50 of pure MDMA is physically impossible to achieve (you can't consume the substance fast enough to kill you [essentially...]).neurotoxic? lol, no, in fact, most deaths attributed to even the impure version, ecstacy, come from people mismanaging their water intake (too much or too little) during the trip. The "rave scare" of the 90's-2000's saw a massive introduction of what turns out to be 100% inaccurate misinformation being fed to the public by the government, and it seems like what you are talking about would be akin to that.
That being said, even with substances like ketamin, where changes in neurochemistry have been documented after a single dose, behavioural changes are almost never found.
I come from the chemistry and medical side of things, not the neuroscience side of things. So I, as well, know very little. You once told me about that regarding ketamin but I know next to nothing regarding MDMA. The GFAP expression test is used for quite a few things when testing for neurotoxicity (I could not find much in the 10 seconds I spent google searching but enjoy.).
Originally posted by Oliver North
information was the first casualty of the war on drugs /shrug
As I typed my post, I felt this strong feeling of disinformation regurgitation happening on my screen. 🙁 So, yeah, I'm pretty sure the stuff I read about almost a decade ago was one-sided and probably based on poor science.
Originally posted by Oliver NorthIt's just a behavioral propensity to be irrational.
YouTube video
I just think about things like, when I grow up, when I'm a math teacher, is it possible that my job will be irrelevant? I just think whatever I do, it will be irrelevant by the time I grow up.
For instance, I just want to be a math professor. Just simple, pure mathematics -- undiluted by all the complexity of the world. But then I hear about transcension, accelerating returns, Moore's law, I think; what use is anything I can get a degree in now? That might be the irrational thinking that led to my current irrational thought process. Or maybe it is a rational cause for irrationality.
David Nutt, a former chairman of the UK Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, stated in the Journal of Psychopharmacology in January 2009, that 'ecstasy' use compared favorably with horse riding in terms of risk, with the drug leading to around 30 deaths a year in the UK compared to about 10 from horse riding, and "acute harm to person" occurring in about one in 10,000 episodes of 'ecstasy' use compared to about one in 350 episodes of horse riding.
This is my new favorite statistic about anything ever.
Originally posted by Dolos
For instance, I just want to be a math professor. Just simple, pure mathematics -- undiluted by all the complexity of the world. But then I hear about transcension, accelerating returns, Moore's law, I think; what use is anything I can get a degree in now? That might be the irrational thinking that led to my current irrational thought process. Or maybe it is a rational cause for irrationality.
So you're Buridan's ass, then, choosing to starve because you think eating might have a downside.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I come from the chemistry and medical side of things, not the neuroscience side of things. So I, as well, know very little. You once told me about that regarding ketamin but I know next to nothing regarding MDMA. The GFAP expression test is used for quite a few things when testing for neurotoxicity (I could not find much in the 10 seconds I spent google searching but enjoy.).
I can't say for sure that MDMA doesn't impact stuff like GFAP, more that the amount of damage, especially if we are talking about pure MDMA, isn't really significant. I'm skeptical about the damage claim anyways, but even then, most research shows no long term detriments.
Originally posted by dadudemon
As I typed my post, I felt this strong feeling of disinformation regurgitation happening on my screen. 🙁 So, yeah, I'm pretty sure the stuff I read about almost a decade ago was one-sided and probably based on poor science.
not really something you can be faulted for, at this point it is really only Europe or sort of "one-off" labs in America that are doing reputable research on illegal drugs. 5-6 years ago, I remember reading an article where a neuroscientist was advocating the use of drugs in research (especially LSD), because it is a way to consistently alter neurochemical communication. The issue is the cultural understanding of drugs. The war on drugs has sort of tainted even this base level research, in a way saying "it doesn't matter what you could learn from this, RARGH!". Also, if you want a funny story, I gave a lecture to a bunch of 1st year students about how Timothy Leary is a 100% laudable figure and science = anarchy* (ya, my own bias)...
*[science challenges every type of authority by definition]