you are committing the same fallacy by denying t-rex evidence and assuming that prime could do the same. 🙂
so please stop pretending like you have the authority to conflate and disqualify irrefutable feats of strength AND quote fallacies to me, kay? 🙂
Originally posted by focus4chumps
unless anyone has evidence of TF's surviving DIRECT body hits from these super cool 105 mm sabots? .if not then its yet more irrelevant glittery posturing via military-tech name-dropping. 🙂
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
There is none. IIRCMaddox was shooting Blackout with far less and killed him, firing whilst sliding under him. As a couple of rockets happened to shoot him too. YouTube video
LOL, I say to thee.
I don't think that killed him (this was in a debate, before...apparently, he shows up in another scene, later...meaning they didn't kill him in that particular scene. I am not going to re-watch the movie just to find out). Also, yes, that's his weak-spot...
Originally posted by focus4chumps
you are committing the same fallacy by denying t-rex evidence and assuming that prime could do the same. 🙂so please stop pretending like you have the authority to conflate and disqualify irrefutable feats of strength AND quote fallacies to me, kay? 🙂
I'm just repeating your words to you so you realize how silly they sound.
Ok let's agree on this: We can't use scenarios unique only for one combatant to gauge how strong they are in relation to another. Therefore, we can't use the T-rex's as a gauge because Prime never fought T-rex's, and we also can't use the Decepticons because Kong never fought Decepticons. So we use scenarios wherein both of them have feats. Which are:
1. Smashing trees. Prime and other transformers snap trees by walking through them. Kong had to smash into a tree with force in order to break it.
2. Smashing through buildings. Prime smashes through quite a lot of buildings. Smashes THROUGH. Kong on the other hand just smashes the side and collapses the side.
Originally posted by FrothByte
1. Smashing trees. Prime and other transformers snap trees by walking through them. Kong had to smash into a tree with force in order to break it.2. Smashing through buildings. Prime smashes through quite a lot of buildings. Smashes THROUGH. Kong on the other hand just smashes the side and collapses the side.
if you could present evidence of these feats as greater than kong (speed/velocity relevant), it could be very compelling.
Originally posted by Dramatic Gecko
I'd like you all to refcall megatron using a melee weapon to tear through a concrete/brick/sandstone (whichever) chruch in Movie One. Megatron and Optimus are the closest in terms of power. I have never seen Kong rip through concrete. However I don't doubt he could smash it in a few hits or jumps.
He picks up (sort of) and knocks over a very large cement-straw-mud hut. Sure, it took a lot of effort but that thing probably weighed quite a bit.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
if you could present evidence of these feats as greater than kong (speed/velocity relevant), it could be very compelling.
Here's Kong's fight with the T-Rex's
In the beginning you see Kong running through the trees without breaking them, then jumping and hanging on a branch without breaking it (suggesting that he's not quite as heavy as you may think). Then later on he shoulders into a tree that uproots the tree and cracks it but doesn't completely snap it in two.
Now compare that with Prime's fight in the forest:
And you see trees cleanly snapping and bursting into pieces as the transformers walk, run, and tumble through the trees. In the beginning you also see Prime do an acrobatic sommersault which shows greater agility than anything Kong has shown so far.
Originally posted by focus4chumps
really?kong swinging from a tree with a trunk almost twice his width. (notice the trees he knocks out of his way on the cliff as if they were dust bunnies.
verses:
Check the tree that Prime uses as a club. Not all the trees in Prime's fight were thin. The part of the branch that Kong held on to looked about as thick as the thin one's in Prime's fight... and it still didn't snap.
Why is the "prove Kong is heavier" going on in this thread when Prime being heavier was debunked in the other thread?
-Kong was estimated between 20 and 60 tons. I'd say the heavier considering his insanely stupid muscle and bone density, but averages 40 tons in those estimated.
-The type of truck(lorry) Prime is a Peterbilt 379, those weight between 15 and 18 tons.
Another of Kong's strength feats if it hasn't been mentioned, picking up a huge boulder single-handed and smashing a T-Rex with it.
Well thats that then.
"Kong smasssssssssssssssssssh."
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think that killed him (this was in a debate, before...apparently, he shows up in another scene, later...meaning they didn't kill him in that particular scene. I am not going to re-watch the movie just to find out). Also, yes, that's his weak-spot...
No theres more than one of his model.
Just like Starscream, Thundercracker and Skywarp in G1.
So.. You mean to say that you didn't know that there were multiple Deceps of that design* yet you could determine that that was it's weakspot, with any authority..? An odd conclusion to draw randomly (especially as the torso is the most solid part of it).
Also Maddox had no way of knowing that either...
Blackout got juked fair and square. TFs just aren't as tough as some are making out.
* A basic thing with Baydeceps, there were even little Megatrons running around in ROTF, multiple Constructicon types...thats part of the problem with the approach they took in not making each TF distinct or giving them individual character. (Probably to save money/effort in imagination in the design process, as well as cutting down on the licensing paid out to the companies that make the vehicles they changed into. And given how original designs were forsaken in order to accomodate the sponsoring GMC and military vehicles in current operation and sale that would make sense from their perspective...but it sucks from the fan perspective as the deceps ended up as physically/visually indistinct as their characterisation to the point where its "Some recognisable Autobots vs Generic and indistinct grey metal monsters that go "rarrrrrr" at people a lot"😉
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't think that killed him (this was in a debate, before...apparently, he shows up in another scene, later...meaning they didn't kill him in that particular scene. I am not going to re-watch the movie just to find out). Also, yes, that's his weak-spot...
No theres more than one of his model.
Just like Starscream, Thundercracker and Skywarp in G1.
So.. You mean to say that you didn't know that there were multiple Deceps of that design* yet you could determine that that was it's weakspot, with any authority..? An odd conclusion to draw randomly (especially as the torso is the most solid part of it).
Also Maddox had no way of knowing that either...
Blackout got juked fair and square. TFs just aren't as tough as some are making out.
* A basic thing with Baydeceps, there were even little Megatrons running around in ROTF, multiple Constructicon types...thats part of the problem with the approach they took in not making each TF distinct or giving them individual character. (Probably to save FX money/effort in imagination in the design process, and having different vehicles they changed into, for advertising. And given how original designs were forsaken in order to accomodate the sponsoring GMC and military vehicles in current operation and sale that would make sense from their perspective...but it sucks from the fan perspective as the deceps ended up as physically/visually indistinct as their characterisation to the point where its "Some recognisable Autobots vs Generic and indistinct grey metal monsters that go "rarrrrrr" at people a lot"😉
Blackout was definitely kiiled and was not seen alive at the end. We do see him dumped into the abyss though, after which he made no further appearances. So I don't how you came to that conclusion. (or your source did)
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
No theres more than one of his model.
Just like Starscream, Thundercracker and Skywarp in G1.
I have not read anything like this anywhere at any place. I am not saying you're wrong: you very well could be right. It is just brand new to me that there were multiple Blackouts running around in T1.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
So.. You mean to say that you didn't know that there were multiple Deceps of that design* yet you could determine that that was it's weakspot, with any authority..?
An odd conclusion to draw randomly (especially as the torso is the most solid part of it).
lol
Tone down the vitriol. It was stated onscreen that that was his weakspot right before they shot up his nuts.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Also Maddox had no way of knowing that either...
I tend to just go with statements made onscreen that also seem to be true. Such as, "punch him in his right temple, it will knock him out." And then he gets punched in the right temple and gets knocked out. Deviating from a direct interpretation, when it is seen to be true onscreen, is usually dangerous for vs. discussions.
The take-away is that I agree humans can damage Transformers with certain weapons and on certain places (eyes, under the nutz for at least the Blackout model, large metal objects through their spark).
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Blackout got juked fair and square. TFs just aren't as tough as some are making out.
I agree, 1000%. They are not as tough as some have made them out to be. However, I do think they are tougher, overall, than anything we as humans (even if remotely controlled by a real human in a suit) could create, right now.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
* A basic thing with Baydeceps, there were even little Megatrons running around in ROTF, multiple Constructicon types...thats part of the problem with the approach they took in not making each TF distinct or giving them individual character. (Probably to save money/effort in imagination in the design process, as well as cutting down on the licensing paid out to the companies that make the vehicles they changed into. And given how original designs were forsaken in order to accomodate the sponsoring GMC and military vehicles in current operation and sale that would make sense from their perspective...but it sucks from the fan perspective as the deceps ended up as physically/visually indistinct as their characterisation to the point where its "Some recognisable Autobots vs Generic and indistinct grey metal monsters that go "rarrrrrr" at people a lot"😉
Oh, okay. I see what you mean. However, I don't remember that being true of Blackout. But I DO remember "baby Megatrons" running round in T2.
If we are being honest, you know what I think? I think that was a budget thing. Instead of creating new and unique CGI models, they just reused and slightly tweaked existing ones. The budget was blown on the pyrotechnics by the time they got to post-production animation. lulz
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Blackout was definitely kiiled and was not seen alive at the end. We do see him dumped into the abyss though, after which he made no further appearances. So I don't how you came to that conclusion. (or your source did)
It was an argument had right here on KMC. I contended that the humans killed Blackout and someone else contended that they did not because Blackout was seen in another scene, same film, in the city. Like I said, I just can't be arsed to re-watch the film to be sure.
Edit - I believe the argument was regarding the utility of humans. The argument the other person was making was that humans could do very little to help the Autobots. I stated that Blackout was killed by humans (a healthy Blackout, to be exact). He disagreed. If I can find the original argument, I would be more than happy to revive that thread and post a nya nya...because I'm immature and hate being wrong. 😐
Edit 2 - I checked the Wiki. It says he was killed and that the F-22's did it. That means I was wrong and right. Wrong that humans on foot killed him but right that he died and was killed by humans. meh.
Edit 3 - It looks like this is what he was talking about:
"Revenge of the Fallen film never explicitly establishes Grindor as a separate character from Blackout. Screenwriter Roberto Orci, when asked, was not sure whether they were supposed to be the same character or not.[5] Despite Orci's statement, Hasbro confirmed that it is Grindor featured in the film instead of Blackout."
"Dreamworks stated there isn't a character in the Revenge of the Fallen film named "Grindor"[sic] because it indeed is Blackout."
Originally posted by dadudemon
I have not read anything like this anywhere at any place. I am not saying you're wrong: you very well could be right. It is just brand new to me that there were multiple Blackouts running around in T1.
lolTone down the vitriol. It was stated onscreen that that was his weakspot right before they shot up his nuts.
THATS not vitriol.
Can you post that? (I have zero recollection of such a scene. )
I tend to just go with statements made onscreen that also seem to be true. Such as, "punch him in his right temple, it will knock him out." And then he gets punched in the right temple and gets knocked out. Deviating from a direct interpretation, when it is seen to be true onscreen, is usually dangerous for vs. discussions.
As said above I have zero recollection of that.
The take-away is that I agree humans can damage Transformers with certain weapons and on certain places (eyes, under the nutz for at least the Blackout model, large metal objects through their spark).
I agree, 1000%. They are not as tough as some have made them out to be. However, I do think they are tougher, overall, than anything we as humans (even if remotely controlled by a real human in a suit) could create, right now.
I dont share that view. A simple car kiiled one in ROTF.
Human made guns waste them too.
Oh, okay. I see what you mean. However, I don't remember that being true of Blackout. But I DO remember "baby Megatrons" running round in T2.
Aye.
If we are being honest, you know what I think? I think that was a budget thing. Instead of creating new and unique CGI models, they just reused and slightly tweaked existing ones. The budget was blown on the pyrotechnics by the time they got to post-production animation. lulz
Probably both right there.
It was an argument had right here on KMC. I contended that the humans killed Blackout and someone else contended that they did not because Blackout was seen in another scene, same film, in the city. Like I said, I just can't be arsed to re-watch the film to be sure.
Oh ok.
Edit - I believe the argument was regarding the utility of humans. The argument the other person was making was that humans could do very little to help the Autobots. I stated that Blackout was killed by humans (a healthy Blackout, to be exact). He disagreed. If I can find the original argument, I would be more than happy to revive that thread and post a nya nya...because I'm immature and hate being wrong. 😐
Edit 2 - I checked the Wiki. It says he was killed and that the F-22's did it. That means I was wrong and right. Wrong that humans on foot killed him but right that he died and was killed by humans. meh.
Thats the trouble with Wiki over shown on screen stuff.
Sure the F22s missle'd him, but Maddox got the apparent killing blow in.
Edit 3 - It looks like this is what he was talking about:"Revenge of the Fallen film never explicitly establishes Grindor as a separate character from Blackout. Screenwriter Roberto Orci, when asked, was not sure whether they were supposed to be the same character or not.[5] Despite Orci's statement, Hasbro confirmed that it is Grindor featured in the film instead of Blackout."
"Dreamworks stated there isn't a character in the Revenge of the Fallen film named "Grindor"[sic] because it indeed is Blackout."
Well since they're wrong. Someone didnt get a memo, figuratively speaking..they look subtly different.
Again TF wiki it if you have too.....
Originally posted by focus4chumpsalso no evidence of him "ripping it out of the ground". whether the tree was dead on the ground or if they rolled over it, there was no tree plucking. it was laying flat when he grabbed it.
Are you kidding? You can clearly see the root of the tree being ripped out of the ground.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Can you post that? (I have zero recollection of such a scene. )
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
YouTube videoLOL, I say to thee.
"Aim low...armor's weak under the chest..."
Which Bay, in his majestic maturity, translated to, "Aim really low...at his nuts."
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Then why did the troops all firing up at him in the airbae attack have any success? Stupidity.
1. CIS.
2. It is possible that the script had changed many times by the time we saw it onscreen. The original intention may have been to make the Transformers mostly immune to human weapons. But, to keep it from being too-bot-sided in the plot, they added in a scene where some humans lay-down some damage so the Americans in the audience would think, "America! **** yeah!" It worked...if that's really what went down.
3. They simply did not know to fire their grenade launchers at Blackout's nuts at the time. While this is the most simple and logical answer, #2 is probaly the correct guess. 😐
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I dont share that view. A simple car kiiled one in ROTF.
Human made guns waste them too.
I don't remember that happening. I know it has been argued discusssed and debated many times, by this point. I tried to avoid those conversations in the other thread. Do you have a link to that scene? If so, yes, that would slightly alter my opinion on their durability.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Thats the trouble with Wiki over shown on screen stuff.
Sure the F22s missle'd him, but Maddox got the apparent killing blow in.Well since they're wrong. Someone didnt get a memo, figuratively speaking..they look subtly different.
Again TF wiki it if you have too.....
On that first part, that seems to support my idea of why humans went from being completely ineffective against the Transformers to being able to kill them, on foot, just later in the film: pandering to American Patriotism.
Apparently, the Blackout vs. Grindor debate has been waged. They talked about a marking/tattoo on Blackout that appears again in the second film which some take to mean that Blackout really did make a return.
However, the debate should still be over. Megatron's and Blackout's sparks were extinguished and they were dropped in the ocean. That's a dead robot. If that really was Blackout, he was resurrected with that piece of the Allspark which means that Blackout was still killed and my original point about humans posessing the ability to kill Transformers still stands.
Originally posted by Robtard
Why is the "prove Kong is heavier" going on in this thread when Prime being heavier was debunked in the other thread?-Kong was estimated between 20 and 60 tons. I'd say the heavier considering his insanely stupid muscle and bone density, but averages 40 tons in those estimated.
-The type of truck(lorry) Prime is a Peterbilt 379, those weight between 15 and 18 tons.
Another of Kong's strength feats if it hasn't been mentioned, picking up a huge boulder single-handed and smashing a T-Rex with it.
Close the thread.
Originally posted by the ninjak
Kong grabs him and bangs Prime around like Hulk did to Loki.