Originally posted by The_Tempest
GL doesn't have to be informed on the EU to exercise his authority over it. Don't know how many more times that has to be explained to you.
It's shocking how adamant you are about not seeing reason:
GL:
[list]"Part of the job of the director is to sort of keep everything in line, and I can do that in the movies—but I can't do it on the whole Star Wars universe."[/list]
< Admission that he can't realistically police everything.
GL:
[list]"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."[/list]
< Admission that there are two worlds, one of which he does not get "too involved in".
[list]STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."[/list]
< Admission that the only interference he shows is restriction of names/previously used ideas. I'd like to point out here that GL's contribution to GAotS was to make Ragnos' tomb less Egyptian-like, but he completely avoided changing the narrations' use of the most powerful of the most powerful. So it seems like if GL wanted to nerf EU Sith in relation to his own, he passed up a grand opportunity to do so.
Let's look at Leland "Troll Logic" Chee:
[list]CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."[/list]
< GL's already stated the depth of his involvement in the EU universe. The extent to which he protests development centers mainly around G-canon, which is "his world", and he has a small list of restrictions, specifically names or reused items (characters? planets? It's not clear). Leland Chee would have you believe that there's no amount of contradiction in his canon policy, but the fact remains that his boss constantly makes it clear there is division between G-canon and EU, to the point of comparing it to Star Trek canon.
[list]Interviewer: "Do you think you'd have other people continue the Star Wars saga past Episode VI or turn some of the other material into films?"
Lucas: "But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story (Note: This basically says nothing post-RotJ is canon in GL's eyes.). It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. (This is GL's focus of work. Anything outside of that is "not his world and he can't be expected to police it. He disavows it in some claims.) There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."[/list]
< Let me know where it says GL makes absolute power charts on EU with his vast knowledge therein, please.
[list]TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"
LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"
TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."[/list]
< How can it be any more obvious? It's their own world. He doesn't police it. He can only make his films and immediate work consistent. He admits that the worlds don't always mesh, that EU gets "enthusiastic" and goes off on its own (hence why people take Yoda's "size matters not" quote and run with it like morons with scissors.
Now, if you want to say "GL is within his rights to change canon at the drop of a hat", I'd agree with you. He certainly can do that. However, I'd argue in the current case that GL must first consolidate and claim lordship over "their world" for this to be true, and furthermore he'd have to retcon or seriously obliterate established money-making EU canon to make sweeping generalizations like "Sidious and Anakin r teh best LOLYOLO", which he, as a business man, will simply not do.
That's why he divorced himself from the equation and just gave his subtle nod, because EU makes him money. And GL loves him some money.
Now it's time for more Leland "Troll Logic" Chee:
[list]"There is one overall continuity."
"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving."
Subsequent questioning over which continuity was "more official" revealed that Mr. Chee favored film + EU continuity, but in the end it was up to the individual fan:
"You're asking the Keeper of the Holocron, so of course I'm gonna be a bit biased ... The reality is that a huge number of people who have seen all 6 Star Wars films have never played a Star Wars game, visited a Star Wars website, watched a Star Wars television program, read a Star Wars publication, or purchased a Star Wars action figure or collectible. It would be great disservice to discount these people as fans."[/list]
Wow, it's almost like he's never heard GL talk before.
And every single time any character is said to be stronger than another character, you have a power chart.
Really? I seem to recall a power chart needing two key components:
1. Objective measurements
2. A ****ing chart.
You have yet to provide either one of those.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[b]LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."[/list][/B]
I'd laugh my ass off if Lucas reads Wookieepedia and thats what he's talking about.
"Who the **** is Revan?"
It's not shocking that you are bitter about the fact that the EU is the bottom in its relationship with George.
No one ever said he actively polices it. Nice strawman, though.
And if that's how you define a power chart, the entire line of inquiry is moot. LFL produces hierarchies all the time. That's all I'm saying.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not shocking that you are bitter about the fact that the EU is the bottom in its relationship with George.
No, I pointed out that GL doesn't care about EU, to the extent that he happily remains ignorant of most of it. This is important because you often use GL quotes as definitive statements of power, when his world is strictly G-canon. The above quotes cement this.
No one ever said he actively polices it. Nice strawman, though.
So then let me ask you:
At what point did GL make a binding power chart for all of EU? I noted that GL and Chee make sweeping ignorant claims all the time, but GL has the benefit of saying "I only police my world".
Either you have a binding judgment from GL that proves X > all conclusively, or you don't. This isn't rocket science.
And if that's how you define a power chart, the entire line of inquiry is moot. LFL produces hierarchies all the time. That's all I'm saying.
Show me where LFL is producing strict, unyielding hierarchies. A chart implies such a thing. Except that LFL is anything but consistent. So I don't see what point you're arguing except just being contrary.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Binding power chart for the entire EU?lolwut
That would be another strawman.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
And every single time any character is said to be stronger than another character, you have a power chart.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
No, the source material is the source material. And power charts have been doled out all over canon and at every level. Not to mention the fact that authorities and creative personnel like George and Dave Filoni have issued them bluntly.LFL may not present a lengthy and conclusive ranking system covering all eras and characters, but that was never in question.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that LFL does give us power charts. If they didn’t give us power charts and left it completely open for debate, I’d see your point. But that’s not the case.
1. You noted before that power charts exist from LFL, to the point where you said a debate was basically out of the question. This implies objectivity instead of subjectivity.
2. You then said power charts were "doled out all over canon and at every level. Not to mention the fact that authorities and creative personnel like George and Dave Filoni have issued them bluntly." This implies power charts which transcend simple situations like "Obi-Wan matched up against Mace Windu". The fact that Nai was arguing at EU level is relevant here.
3. "And every single time any character is said to be stronger than another character, you have a power chart." You basically make your own definition of a power chart, then you claim that it's doled out like candy, but then you say EU-wide power charts don't exist but then you said authority figures like GL and Dave Filoni issued them bluntly. It's to the point where there's no clarity but semantic nonsense.
Actually, let me amend something:
Going on your own definition of power chart as being a hierarchy established by LFL, apparently through source material (although you use LFL officials' quotes as binding as well), it stands to reason that any definitive ranking by LFL (such as most powerful) holds up within context unless expressly overwritten by equally valid source material.
So if you're saying that no EU-wide binding power chart (single form) exists, you're saying there's no single instance of LFL establishing one person as more powerful than everyone else, or a group of people.
This doesn't even help your case.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If your reason so far is an indication of what to expect, I probably won't even bother to log in tonight to respond, much less hold my breath. Between the semantics and the LOL SNARK GIF routine, you're becoming boring.
Your butthurt is most pleasing. If you're too cowardly to respond, that's your choice. I'll merely bask in your fear.