Exar Kun vs Dooku

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Someone (I believe Nebarus) had posted a vid which had Lucas calling the PT era as the jedi in their prime when he was going over their saber expertise. I'm not talking about the "golden age" quote; this quote was in an extra from TPM.

Which it was in relation to the OT, I recall.

As far as Anakin slipping in the bath tub and there being no clone Emperor, the former Lucas seemed to state as a joke because of his ignorance on the EU, while the latter was said as something he didn't have in mind and something he wouldn't have had happened if it was up him, but since he allows other writers to expand on his universe, it's something he did allow.

Which again, is my whole point; GL is by his own admission not learned in EU and is not it's self-appointed regulator beyond relatively minor changes. Things we've seen include artistic changes in GAotS and using a reference to prevent name duplication. Keep in mind that the argument here is that GL's quotes are used in a sweeping fashion without regard to context. You're applying context here, which is the irony; my point was that people who advocate GL statements absolutely only do so when it affirms their bias, not as a general practice.

Furthermore, Lucas contradicted himself there, because on one of the DE graphic novels, according to Tom Veitch, Lucas claims that the story was the closest thing he had in mind if he continued the story after the events of ROTJ. The EU is something Lucas tries to stay consistent with even though some are not stories he agrees with or likes, but he does admit that he allows it, hence the name Expanded Universe. And just because he does not follow most of it, it doesn't mean the EU can override an official statement he's made regarding his universe. Although Lucas is ignorant on most of the EU and does contradict it at time, why would he even bother to try to stay consistent with it at all if he truly meant for it to be a universe separate from his movies?

Why indeed? But what makes more sense:

1. That GL allows leniency and some inconsistencies as a matter of recognizing there are two worlds.

or...

2. GL maintains that there are two worlds, and sets down absolute statements in interviews, which are chiefly his thoughts off the top of his head.

I don't see 2 making a great deal of sense, especially when he's given contradictory answers and basically done everything he can divorce himself from it.

When he referred to the PT as the prime of the jedi, I don't see why we shouldn't accept that as canon, since he does recognize that their are other eras that expand his universe.

Okay, let's assume I'm a history teacher who is aware of other eras but only specializes in WWII. If I say that the German Wehrmacht was the best army ever, would this be a valid opinion? If so, what am I basing it on? My own limited expertise?

This is the same problem with taking GL's statements out of context. GL rules G-canon. It is "his world" (his words no less). The other is not "his world", and it runs off on its own tangent. He recognizes that inconsistencies exist. He even ignores or allows power statements like Ragnos' to stand, instead only citing an artistic reinterpretation of the guy's sarcophagus.

Why would you assume that his statement is binding canon when it's made within the context of his own world? Furthermore, why would you maintain this when Jedi of other eras show more martial prowess, are more active in fighting Sith, and have diverse Force showings beyond that of the PT era?

Evidently he knew about other eras of jedi, and made the statement regardless. The statement wasn't made to be a joke (Anakin's scar from the bath tube), and it wasn't made in the context of something that he didn't have in mind or something he wouldn't have bothered doing (clone emperor).

No, it was made within the context of comparing the PT to the OT. Compared to the OT, in which Jedi are a dying breed, the PT era are "in their prime" and fight better.

Expanding this statement to cover thousands of years of warring, esoteric Jedi beforehand is violating Ockham's Razor.

TBH, I was hoping you wouldn't reply right away. I'll address later.

No worries, reply when you can. Also, I did some digging to verify GL's involvement in TOTJ/GAotS, and found something different from what I expected -

Interview with Kevin J Anderson:

[list]GM: What was the conception behind the Golden Age of the Sith and The Fall of the Sith Empire story arcs? What interested you in particular about these events? Did Lucasfilm ask you about writing a set of stories about the ancient Sith Lords?

KJA: No, we proposed it to them. We asked for more information about the Sith and were able to submit a list of Yes/No questions to George Lucas, which he answered, providing the fodder for our stories.

-

GM: Did you conceive the characters of Gav and Jori Daragon, and Memit Nadill (from the the Golden Age of the Sith and The Fall of the Sith Empire story arcs)? Or were they created by Lucasfilm, and you chose to build their characters into your stories?

KJA: All of those characters were created by us. Lucasfilm gave us a lot of freedom in developing the stories and rarely “handed” us characters or stories.

-

GM: I assume that writing a stories like the Golden Age of the Sith, which takes place 5,000 years before the feature film Episode IV: A New Hope, allowed you a certain degree of freedom through which to develop your characters and events. How free were you to write your stories as you wanted? Did Lucasfilm tell you something like, “You can develop your stories between here and here, as long as X doesn’t happen”?

KJA: As mentioned above, Lucasfilm was extremely flexible with these comics and allowed us to do basically whatever we wanted, so long as we remained true to the spirit of Star Wars.[/list]

And Tom Veitch -

[list]Greyman: Was Tales of the Jedi your creation, or original idea? Or was it a product of Lucasfilm Ltd. which they contracted out to you to write? What were your thoughts when you were first contacted about writing this series of comics?

Tom Veitch: I came up with the idea and I contacted them about doing it as a follow-up to Dark Empire. "Oh, George will never go for this," they said. Well, he loved the idea, of course, and gave us free-reign to imagine the Star Wars universe of 4000 years before Luke Skywalker. His only rule was that I had to submit my ideas to him for final o.k.[/list]

In the case of these comics, at least, it seems that the writers were allowed to go wild, and GL had the authority to veto anything. Veitch goes on to mention that GL hardly exercised this authority.

So let's take this evidence and put it together with what we know:

1. GL approved a laundry list of things pertaining to the comic book era of EU. He rarely, if ever, veto'd anything. This includes all the ridiculous Force feats, technology, characters etc. we see in these works.

2. GL apparently liked what was done.

3. GL notes that there are two worlds.

4. GL notes he can't be expected to police them. He maintains that he has some degree of consistency. This includes his encyclopedia and a form of final submission to himself for key points.

5. GL is talking in an interview about the PT versus the OT.

6. As Chee notes, a large majority of viewers have never immersed themselves in EU. Therefore, it is illogical to gear things towards this group instead of the larger G-canon only group.

7. It seems reasonable that GL is addressing his larger viewer base on a subject in which he is an expert regarding his own contained world.

8. To reiterate, GL was on board with EU characters being entirely inconsistent and (in terms of Force use) superior to his own creations prior to making the PT.

Moose
I have to give you credit for concisely replying to me this time, although I'm not sure I agree with you; I at least respect that you presented something I can both easily understand and address. That being said, I will honor you back with a civil reply.

Exchanging walls of text can be fun, but my stamina for it ain't what it used to be. Especially when I get behind for a day or two. (Case in point.)

I'll try to get to your rebuttal as soon as I can muster the energy for an appropriate lengthy response to your fairly detailed remarks.

Moose
Yes, this includes accepting Ragnos as the end-all based on one quote created over a decade ago.

I'll also need a day to recover from this.

I threw you a bone.

I've got yer bone right here.