Originally posted by Nephthys
While it is true that some/much of the energy Vitiate drained from Nathema and those 8000 Sith Lords went into prolonging his life indefinitely, its also stated to have increased his power.Same for Nihilus. Kreia says it increased his power.
If your goal was to make Vitiate look even LESS credible, you couldn't have done a better job.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I actually have a different theory about draining, inspired by (and probably first debunked by) the Merchant. Draining a planet does not make you more powerful in itself, rather it gives you a far longer life span to do so. Vastly increasing his capacity as a dark side practioner = having more time to learn the secrets of the dark side. Same with sidious, it allowed his life span to be furthered. Nihilus, on the other hand, was a slave to hunger, not necessarily making him more powerful, just in constant need of things to drain so he can survive.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
His "ultimate plan" is irrelevant, as it was never realized. anyways,
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Luke and Krayt defeated abeloth together from beyond shadows.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
also, UnuThul's attempt to dominate Luke's mind was one of the most powerful in the mythos, maybe even surpassing vitiate's. Why? because in vitiate's case, mind dominating 8000 sith lords is vastly impressive, however, these sith were desperate and willing, plus they weren't actively imposing their wills on vitiate. Luke, on the other hand, was resisting UnuThul, whom was drawing on the power of the entire colony, and actively imposing his will on Luke. This suggests insane willpower on Luke's part.
I recall a Dark Jedi who could actually break Luke with his telepathic influence but the Jedi Master was saved from this fate by his companions. Vitiate is stronger then this Dark Jedi as well. Vitiate is seemingly most telepathically dominant Force-user introduced in the mythos yet. He could no just break any individual he wanted to but he telepathically controlled thousands of his minions scattered across the galaxy.
Exactly. The fact that Luke was able to resist UnuThul's telepathy, while simultaneously influencing him, is incredibly impressive. Plus, if direct combat were to engage, Luke would defeat vitiate. How? Luke hilariously outclasses vitiate in lightsaber combat, so vitiate would try to press this to a force battle. I don't see mental domination working, because I think if Revan were to resist it, Luke is perfectly capable of doing so as well, as he is no newcomer to mind domination. Vitiate does have very potent FLS. However, it takes 1-2 seconds to charge, time in which Luke could fold space his lightsaber into vitiate's heart, while the latter is distracted charging his power. Also, Luke has more impressive TK, though they are very close in this regard.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Exactly. The fact that Luke was able to resist UnuThul's telepathy, while simultaneously influencing him, is incredibly impressive.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plus, if direct combat were to engage, Luke would defeat vitiate. How? Luke hilariously outclasses vitiate in lightsaber combat, so vitiate would try to press this to a force battle. I don't see mental domination working, because I think if Revan were to resist it, Luke is perfectly capable of doing so as well, as he is no newcomer to mind domination.
Revan developed a special counter-measure to prevent Vitiate from telepathically influencing him again but he could do so after experiencing its nature beforehand.
Luke had exposure to offensive telepathic applications but he is not resistant to them. Lord Nyax would have broken him as an example, and Vitiate is stronger then Lord Nyax.
Everybody have fallen to his telepathic influence; HoT; Revan; Malak; Braga; Sedoru; Neraz; and list is long. Multiple powerful Force-users at a time as well.
Vitiate have even (destroyed) minds of some his opponents as well with his telepathic abilities; those he didn't wanted to save or transform into his puppets.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Vitiate does have very potent FLS. However, it takes 1-2 seconds to charge, time in which Luke could fold space his lightsaber into vitiate's heart, while the latter is distracted charging his power. Also, Luke has more impressive TK, though they are very close in this regard.
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Luke can win by virtue of circumstances but not in a fair contest in which both are prepared to fight each other.
The context of the dark council's death is unknown, they were unprepared for any sort of confrontation, and vitiate may very well have set a trap/utilized a ritual. In a fair contest in which both are prepared to fight each other, Luke would know of vitiate's mind domination capability, and would create ample mental barriers against it (much like Revan taught to Meetra/Scourge). Plus, when is it shown that vitiate is immune to the effects of many force powers?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The context of the dark council's death is unknown, they were unprepared for any sort of confrontation, and vitiate may very well have set a trap/utilized a ritual.
During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.
It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.
A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come.
Source: (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia, Page 156)
1. This particular Dark Council prepared itself to eliminate Vitiate.
2. Vitiate also prepared himself to eliminate this particular Dark Council after he came to know about its treacherous intentions.
3. Vitiate unleashed a mysterious power to eliminate much of this Council. Lokess somehow survived but she was as good as dead nonetheless.
4. No ritual involved in this contest; this source have explicitly pointed out rituals based actions of Vitiate otherwise.
Rituals are typically performed to unleash dark side powers on mass destructive scale. Same powers can be unleashed without rituals but would be less potent in scope. Do you know that even Though Bomb can be unleashed singlehandedly?
Vitiate is an extraordinarily powerful Force-user by all accounts. He have controlled highest number of Force-users in galactic history.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
In a fair contest in which both are prepared to fight each other, Luke would know of vitiate's mind domination capability, and would create ample mental barriers against it (much like Revan taught to Meetra/Scourge). Plus, when is it shown that vitiate is immune to the effects of many force powers?
Also, their are some techniques which can bypass formal defenses of Force-users. Being a (super) Sith Sorcerer, Vitiate would be well-versed in undermining formal defenses of his opponents. This is why he have such an amazing combat record and have broken and killed so many individuals in the mythos. His downfall have circumstances attached to it.
I see your edit. It still does not, however, answer my response.
Edit: nvm
Actually, Sidious says rituals are but stepping stones to gain ones true power, an example would be having to use a ritual that required assistance to drain a planet, and being able to drain one without said help. Revan has blasted vitiate back with his light-dark release, taking the form of a very potent telekenetic barrage. Luke is also extremely Potent with TK, and can use it to provide significant harm to vitiate. Also, as I mentioned, he could fold space a lightsaber into vitiate's heart, if the latter is distracted channeling his power/directing a mental assault or attack.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Actually, Sidious says rituals are but stepping stones to gain ones true power, an example would be having to use a ritual that required assistance to drain a planet, and being able to drain one without said help.
I think that their is a confusion about some actions of Vitiate; he wanted to test the limits of his dark side abilities and this is why he orchestrated such a devastating ritual on Medriaas. He certainly summoned such power with external aid but he controlled the outcome and accomplished all of his objectives of that time with great success in the process. After his first major transformation was complete, Vitiate could siphon energies from individuals on galactic scale at will to sustain his immortal condition indefinitely and fuel his power and he did do for as long as he lasted. He continued to siphon energies from souls of countless beings he trapped within void of Medriaas, many individuals on Dromund Kaas and also from Revan on a place known as Maelstrom Prison which was 12 parsecs away from Dromund Kaas. During this time, Vitiate was most likely capable of pulling off Medriaas like feat by himself but slowly and surely prepared for his ultimate plan. He performed all of these tasks to make his ultimate plan possible.
Vitiate -> Sith Emperor -> omnipotent godlike being
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan has blasted vitiate back with his light-dark release, taking the form of a very potent telekenetic barrage. Luke is also extremely Potent with TK, and can use it to provide significant harm to vitiate. Also, as I mentioned, he could fold space a lightsaber into vitiate's heart, if the latter is distracted channeling his power/directing a mental assault or attack.
That fold space talent is interesting. Revan also possessed this talent but he didn't find the opportunity to use it against Vitiate, such was the pressure of the latter.
^^^
Revan have some crazy talents/capabilities by the way (He proved this during his encounter against an Imperial Strike Team; seems like as if he bended time and space to escape from that location). Luke might be stronger then Revan but not by a big margin, IMO.
EDIT: Vitiate's avatar was already badly injured by that point due to multiple lightsaber stabs so Vitiate was not in the position to offer a counter to that kind of power from HoT. In healthy state, Vitiate would have prevented that pillar from falling over him. In-fact, even in such a vulnerable phase, Vitiate was able to throw several of those gigantic pillars on HoT's position in the aftermath. But HoT managed to escape.
you may very well turn out to be correct, however we cannot give characters assumed powers. Like saying if revan has power A, he can use power B. Luke is stronger than Revan by a big margin, again, because Luke is far superior in lightsaber combat, and in the force, based on feats.
edit: hmm, if the HoT could deal several lightsaber strikes to vitiate, why wouldn't luke be capable of doing the same?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
you may very well turn out to be correct, however we cannot give characters assumed powers. Like saying if revan has power A, he can use power B. Luke is stronger than Revan by a big margin, again, because Luke is far superior in lightsaber combat, and in the force, based on feats.
In contrast, we do not have examples of Revan unleashing his power with full concentration yet. Author however claims that Revan could do crazy stuff with his Force abilities under right state of mind (Personal communication).
Keep in mind that Revan endured 300 years of worst kind of torture and was still able to hold his own against an Imperial Strike Team after his release when it was sent to assassinate him. This is phenomenal display of skill, power and endurance for a mortal. In his prime condition, Revan steam-rolled through Sith forces stationed aboard Star Forge (his greatest accomplishment). Revan is the only individual to have thoroughly explored both light and dark sides of the Force and accomplish perfect uniformity between the two concepts/pathways to hone his talents; he could create new Force powers with such capabilities.*
*I recall that the author once told me that Revan could create new Force powers, he was so prodigiously talented in the use of the Force.
Revan is arguably the greatest legend of the Jedi Order.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
edit: hmm, if the HoT could deal several lightsaber strikes to vitiate, why wouldn't luke be capable of doing the same?
How good was Luke at coping with dark side conditions of the Dromund Kaas by the way? I hear that many prominent individuals couldn't cope well with the dark side conditions of this planet. List includes Yoda, Ben, Kyle and Luke. Now fighting Vitiate inside this planet would be suicidal. In-fact, Vitiate was extremely effective in any setting under fair circumstances as he proved from his feat of defeating an extremely capable Jedi Strike Team on one his space stations. This is why I do no subscribe to the theory that names such as Yoda and Luke will automatically succeed in every kind of challenge. We shouldn't assume that Yoda and Luke do not have weaknesses or are blessed with no-limits fallacy.
When you say revan is greatest legend of jedi order, do you mean most powerful? cause you'd be wrong. BTW, the author states in Revan novel that revan needed meetra's help for strength when he got captured by sith emperor. Again, speculation is speculation, however I would find it interesting if it turns our Revan created the fold space talent🙂. I do also believe in implied power, and revan most likely was a very skilled lightsaber duelist, however to say he's at least dooku level is simply incorrect, as Dooku has feats and accolades to outclass Revan.
In no way do I believe Yoda/Luke cannot be defeated, however to believe the same about vitiate is hypocrisy. Luke and Yoda are prodigiously powerful wielders of the lightside, and could certainly hold their own/defeat the sith emperor.
Revan cannot use Fold Space. Firstly, the technique was never described as a flash of light or anything of the sort. Secondly, the Aang Ti created Fold Space in the ancient times, and in no point of Revan's story would he have even had the chance to discover them. Thirdly, if he could use Fold Space, he would have used this to his advantage in his battle with Vitiate. And lastly, but not least--If Revan had survived his battle with the Strike team, he wouldn't just disappear forever, he'd continue his quest to defeat Vitiate. But he didn't. Cuz he died.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
When you say revan is greatest legend of jedi order, do you mean most powerful? cause you'd be wrong.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
BTW, the author states in Revan novel that revan needed meetra's help for strength when he got captured by sith emperor. Again, speculation is speculation, however I would find it interesting if it turns our Revan created the fold space talent🙂. I do also believe in implied power, and revan most likely was a very skilled lightsaber duelist, however to say he's at least dooku level is simply incorrect, as Dooku has feats and accolades to outclass Revan.
Revan have accolades matching those of Luke:-
1. Jedi Order's most powerful champion
2. Heart of the Force
Also, Revan have routed armies, destroyed many Basilisks, defeated some very powerful adversaries and gave Vitiate some trouble (a godlike avatar of the dark side as per canon).
Dooku have more screen-time so this is why the list of his feats is big accordingly. But Dooku haven't done anything which should confirm his superiority over Revan. His finest showing is on Geonosis but he benefitted from Yoda's passivity. The only thing Dooku may have over Revan is (supposed) greater proficiency in bladework but Revan have superior mastery of the Force on his side and this would give him advantage.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
In no way do I believe Yoda/Luke cannot be defeated, however to believe the same about vitiate is hypocrisy. Luke and Yoda are prodigiously powerful wielders of the lightside, and could certainly hold their own/defeat the sith emperor.
Analogy: Why do you think that Sith Triumvirate was so dangerous? Because those Sith Lords learned some techniques which would make it possible for them to effectively undermine opposition.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Revan cannot use Fold Space. Firstly, the technique was never described as a flash of light or anything of the sort. Secondly, the Aang Ti created Fold Space in the ancient times, and in no point of Revan's story would he have even had the chance to discover them.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Thirdly, if he could use Fold Space, he would have used this to his advantage in his battle with Vitiate.
Why didn't Dooku use FL against Anakin aboard Invisible Hand?
Point is that we need to focus on the dynamics of the battle at hand. Vitiate isn't an individual who is going to grant his opposition sufficient opportunity to gain advantage over him; he puts that kind of pressure on his opposition.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
And lastly, but not least--If Revan had survived his battle with the Strike team, he wouldn't just disappear forever, he'd continue his quest to defeat Vitiate. But he didn't. Cuz he died.
Originally posted by Nephthys
HoT >>>
yoda and Luke both have abilities that vitiate may not know of as well, especially considering that vitiate came LONG before luke and yoda did. Yoda's actually alot like vitiate in the sense that he's been around for a long time to learn as much as possible about the lightside, and he also studied how to defend againts every darkside technique (or almost every). Luke has greater raw power than vitiate, being the son of the chosen one himself (who woulda become most powerful force user in history), and also has abilities vitiate may not be familiar with, like shatterpoint (which would be further amplified by vitiate's tactical ineptitude in many situations), perfect illusions, electric judgement that insta-killed vong slayers (note: vitiate has never seen any jedi use such ability), has TK ability to re-build/destroy vader's fortress, has deflected AT-AT fire with bare hands, then lightsaber, and proceeded to knock it down. Plus Luke has enormous speed advantage, and vitiate hasn't (canonically as of yet) fought an opponent as fast as Luke. BTW, when I said Dooku>Revan due to accolades, I meant in sabers 😉