RotJ Luke vs. Darth Malak

Originally posted by Nephthys
Scourge isn't, probably. But Nyriss whooped his ass in lightsabers and the Force so she's way above him.

I think Malak is likely above Nyriss.

Maybe, but remember that she was weakened even more on Malachor V considering its a stronger nexus and has the Mass Shadow Generator. And she was still able to pwn the Trayas Academy and Sion (5+ times iirc) before beating Kreia twice. You think Malak could have done that shit? I don't. Not off the Star Forge at least.

I think Malak could on a DS nexus. Portrayal wise, Malak seems to be superior to the Sith Triumvirate sans Nihilus. But Nihilus was pretty much the most powerful character in the mythos barring canon explicitly states the title goes to others.

Even excluding Nihilus' gigadrain he's above most of that list and certainly above Malak. He casually owned the Exile's team while starving and dragged the Ravager out of Malachor. This is the guy who consumed the energy of entire planets and nearly a hundred Jedi remember.

That's because Nihilus is OP as ****.

Even with the Star Forge I disagree Malak is equal to Revan. Drew said it was a tough fight but Revan had just fought through the Star Forge, Bastila and the room on continuously spawning battle droids to get to him and he did beat him multiple times. You say he could have freed them, but that too indicates large superiority imo since he'd have to do that while fighting Malak. Its not like he would allow him. He defeated him at least twice in a row, after fighting to get to him and while Malak was amped.

Drew said it was a grueling battle actually. I personally think Revan mid-diffed the fodder on the Star Forge, low diffed Bastilla, and low diffed the droids. Also consider Revan was likely amped by Bastilla's battle meditation. Hell the most recent depiction of the fight even has Revan and Bastilla fighting Malak.

Therefore, logically Normal Malak is far below Revan. Dude has ****all to his name other than being the Dark Lord.

And giving Revan hell. Again you are leaving out Revan is amped on Bastilla's meditation at this point.

Also Kreia is said to be more powerful than the Exile. Meetra beat her through sheer skill. Sure she wasn't above Revan's right hand before Kotor 2, but after consuming the power of hundreds and everything else that elevated her during the game she surely is imo.

Aside from the ridiculous Giga-drain Kreia has shit all to her name as well. And if Kriea was more powerful than the Exile she would have won. Unless Kreia was holding back.

I agree with everything you just posted, except the kreia thing. she is stated to have been more powerful than the exile, but the exile had a glaring advantage in tactical acumen, plus the thing about kreia holding back.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think Malak is likely above Nyriss.

I don't see why. He definitely wouldn't be able to own Meetra and Scourge the way Nyriss did imo.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think Malak could on a DS nexus. Portrayal wise, Malak seems to be superior to the Sith Triumvirate sans Nihilus. But Nihilus was pretty much the most powerful character in the mythos barring canon explicitly states the title goes to others.

Well if he has to be on a DS nexus to do it then how is he superior to her when she did it with a DS nexus negatively effecting her?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That's because Nihilus is OP as ****.

Damn straight.

😎

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Drew said it was a grueling battle actually. I personally think Revan mid-diffed the fodder on the Star Forge, low diffed Bastilla, and low diffed the droids. Also consider Revan was likely amped by Bastilla's battle meditation. Hell the most recent depiction of the fight even has Revan and Bastilla fighting Malak.

Theres no mention of Bastila supporting Revan with Battle Meditation. She says she's going to support the fleet, not Revan. I see no reason to assume she was. Yes it was a tough battle, but Revan was still worn down from battle and Malak was amped and he still beat him multiple times. That in no way suggests parity to me.

Those depictions always made me facepalm. What, can Bioware not remember what happened in their own game? 😬

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
And giving Revan hell. Again you are leaving out Revan is amped on Bastilla's meditation at this point.

Because he wasn't.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Aside from the ridiculous Giga-drain Kreia has shit all to her name as well. And if Kriea was more powerful than the Exile she would have won.

You mean other than being able to levitate and fight with 3 lightsabers, kill nearly a dozen Sith just by walking passed them, smack around the Jedi Masters on Dantooine, beat up the Ebon Hawk crew by herself, turn invisible or otherwise conceal her presence, read and affect minds and communicate telepathically across the galaxy with someone she's never even met?

She was more powerful than the Exile though. I believe its said in SWTORE at some point.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Unless Kreia was holding back.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see why. He definitely wouldn't be able to own Meetra and Scourge the way Nyriss did imo.

On a DS nexus I don't see why not.

Well if he has to be on a DS nexus to do it then how is he superior to her when she did it with a DS nexus negatively effecting her?

I am not quite convinced on the Exile being superior to Malak.

Theres no mention of Bastila supporting Revan with Battle Meditation. She says she's going to support the fleet, not Revan. I see no reason to assume she was. Yes it was a tough battle, but Revan was still worn down from battle and Malak was amped and he still beat him multiple times. That in no way suggests parity to me.

So let me get this straight. Revan goes to fight the most powerful Sith in the known galaxy, and while Bastilla is boosting the power of thousands of Republic soldiers she elects to not help Revan? Sounds like bullshit to me. Also prove he was worn down. It's like arguing Kenobi and Skywalker were exhausted from fighting through the Invisible Hand.

Those depictions always made me facepalm. What, can Bioware not remember what happened in their own game? 😬

Or its implies Revan had her help in another way. i.e. Battle Meditation.

Because he wasn't.

So Bastilla while amping the Republic fleet was like '**** the man I love, he can beat the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy with ease.' I think not. Also with recent depictions of Revan AND Bastilla fighting him together seems to me that she was helping him in some way.

You mean other than being able to levitate and fight with 3 lightsabers, kill nearly a dozen Sith just by walking passed them, smack around the Jedi Masters on Dantooine, beat up the Ebon Hawk crew by herself, turn invisible or otherwise conceal her presence, read and affect minds and communicate telepathically across the galaxy with someone she's never even met?

1. Big deal, Vandar Tokare could do the same thing.
2. Featless Sith.
3. N-canon.
4. Neyophyte Jedi and non-force sensitives a credible feat does not make.
Also Malak would have been able to casually solo the Ebon Hawk Crew on the Leviathan. If they could have defeated Malak then they undoubtedly would have tried.

She was more powerful than the Exile though. I believe its said in SWTORE at some point.

That just gives more evidence to the Kreia was holding back theory. That hurts your case not helps it.

Darth Traya who has lies and betrayal in her name. If a character statement is all you have you'll need more than that.

Yeah he has a point. Plus Revan's crew > Meetra's crew in this case, because the revan crew thing involved revan himself, whilst traya beat everyone but meetra. Anyways, with a DS nexus feeding malak and hampering meetra, he could most definitely beat her and scourge, who isn't too impressive in that novel, just as easily as Nyriss did.

What do you peeps think on the actual battle tho?

Malak is likely to get beaten in pure light saber dueling.

If we go by feats Malak loses all. But if we go by hype/powerscaling based on the Revan fight (which I think should have been the prologue to the Revan novel), then Malak may take force and all out.

Talking about overall battle though, not just pure lightsaber dueling.

Edit: yeah I think malak can win force, due to a wider variety of abilities to keep luke off-balance, plus malak is physically stronger, although Luke is probably faster. In terms of a saber duel, Luke wins, but I think malak would put up a damn good fight.

There's a ship that's flying outside in the boss fight vs Malak in KotoR

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
There's a ship that's flying outside in the boss fight vs Malak in KotoR

Luke outdueled Vader because he turned to anger. No guarantee he does that vs Malak. But I do think he'll outduel Malak but all Malak has to do his just FL to submission.

pretty sure Luke can block it with his saber :/

I didn't read the 50 million comics but I'm going to wager that Luke was preparing for a fight with Vader who cannot use force lightning than coming up with defensive techniques against it. I'm not even sure Luke is even aware of such a technique otherwise he wouldn't have you know, thrown his lightsaber away against the Emperor.

And using logic like that then there's no purpose of using force lighting at all. :/:/:/:/:/:/:/

I suppose you're right about the first point, but there is nothing wrong with the logic I used. The more powerful the force user the more powerful the lightning. I don't think malak has what it takes to overwhelm Luke's lightsaber defense with his lightning, although I suppose Luke didn't really know of such a technique. I still don't think that's the be-all end-all of the fight, as luke has resisted palpatine's lightning for a good amount of time, and palpatine's lightning >>>malak's lightning.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
On a DS nexus I don't see why not.

And I see nothing indicating that he would. Nothing he's done puts him on that level. The Exile and Scourge are incredibly power and skilled combatants. What makes you think Malak could own them both simultaneously?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not quite convinced on the Exile being superior to Malak.

The Exile has actual feats backing her up for one thing. She solod an entire Sith academy on a powerful DS nexus and with the MSG, then beat Sion 5+ times and Kreia twice. She has an incredibly fast learning rate and is proficient in 4+ forms plus battle precognition. She becomes a superior telepath to Kreia in a single training session.

Malak? He has nothing. Lightsaber combat? He's got ****all. The Exile has better lightsaber feats than him, at least we know about her skills and her learning rate suggests huge skill. The Force? The Exile already beat a more powerful person than Malak in the form of Kreia. Whats Malak gonna do that Kreia couldn't?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So let me get this straight. Revan goes to fight the most powerful Sith in the known galaxy, and while Bastilla is boosting the power of thousands of Republic soldiers she elects to not help Revan? Sounds like bullshit to me. Also prove he was worn down. It's like arguing Kenobi and Skywalker were exhausted from fighting through the Invisible Hand.

She's just gotten the piss beaten out of her by Revan (three times iirc). Theres nothing indicating she would be able to boost Revan and the fleet at the same time in her condition.

Kenobi and Skywalker barely fought on the Invisible Hand, while Malak sends legions of Sith and Star Forge droids to beat Revan. Then he has to beat Bastila 3 times, who mentions Revan's tired btw:

YouTube video

2.20

Then he has to fight that room of constantly spawning droids, which I doubt he just walked through.

Also note that Bastila specifically says she's using her Battle Meditation to aid the Republic fleet and says that Revan doesn't need her to beat Malak.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Or its implies Revan had her help in another way. i.e. Battle Meditation.

It doesn't.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So Bastilla while amping the Republic fleet was like '**** the man I love, he can beat the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy with ease.' I think not. Also with recent depictions of Revan AND Bastilla fighting him together seems to me that she was helping him in some way.

What, do you think that image is meant to be some kind of metaphor? 😆

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
1. Big deal, Vandar Tokare could do the same thing.

That doesn't mean its not impressive.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
2. Featless Sith.

As Sith assassins they feed off nearby Force sensistives, which Kreia is, increasing their power. Their strength is dependent on Kreias.

Plus it doesn't matter. Kiling 12 Sith with a single attack without even gesturing is hugely impressive no matter how powerful they are. But considering they're in the Trayas Academy and guarding the Trayas Core I hardly think they were shit. Also the fact that they could stand around normally with the MSG indicates some strength.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
3. N-canon.

She does it in the game too, just not to the same extent:

YouTube video

3.10

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
4. Neyophyte Jedi and non-force sensitives a credible feat does not make.
Also Malak would have been able to casually solo the Ebon Hawk Crew on the Leviathan. If they could have defeated Malak then they undoubtedly would have tried.

Malak didn't beat the Ebon Hawk though. So there no point bringing up that he could and there no indication he could do it casually either.

Plus HK-47 and Mandalore were on the Exiles team.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
That just gives more evidence to the Kreia was holding back theory. That hurts your case not helps it.

No it doesn't. It just means the Exile is that good of a fighter.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Darth Traya who has lies and betrayal in her name. If a character statement is all you have you'll need more than that.

Lol, no I don't. Its your theory and theres nothing supporting it. I don't need to prove anything, the fact that she flat out says she won't hold back just proves she wasn't beyond any doubt, when theres no reason to doubt in the first place.

The Traya holding back theory has never been anything other than Exile-hate posing as an idea. People just don't want to accept that the Exile is legitimately powerful. It has no basis in fact whatsoever. Anyone who has actually played the game knows that Kreia holding back is anathema to her philosophy. She believes that truly helping someone is to allow them to sort out problems by their own power, because otherwise they do not truly grow. She specifically says that holding back and allowing the Exile to kill her would make everything the Exile has achieved meaningless. She says that the Exile surpassing her has rewarded her more than anything else could have.

If she though she had to allow her perfect student to kill her she never would have been that into her in the first place. It would betray everything she believes in.

about the tired thing: you honestly don't think revan would be fully prepared, physically and mentally, to fight the most powerful sith lord in the known galaxy? It's like when people say revan woulda beaten vitiate, had he better prepared himself. I'm pretty sure bastila was probably amping revan in some way, as there have been said image(s), plus the fact that bastila loved revan and wanted to help him as best as possible, I don't see why she wouldn't try to help him, especially with their special force bond. Plus there's the possibility she was still being amped by the star forge. Also note she says that she would be corrupted in the presence of malak, and only certain especially powerful beings have been shown to do so (yes he was receiving star forge amp, but it still shows he commands a great deal of power nonetheless). Hell the fact that malak can even control the star forge, and even get it to work 300% faster than expectations, show his (implied) power.

I don't think Revan had the luxury of being fully prepared or well rested. Malak sent his forces out specifically to wear Revan down and tire him and Bastila notes that Revan is tired. He has to fight to get to him. You'd have to be delusional to think Revan wouldn't be weary after all he has to fight to even get to Malak.

And you don't think Revan can heal his weariness? Hell, when Revan was on a darkside nexus, he got blasted by vitiate's powerful force lightning storm, and was back up in seconds.

Jedi aren't gods. They do not have limitless stamina or power.