Darth Nihilus Vs Darth Sidious

Originally posted by mstanford2912
The standards are the same. I don't know why you keep saying they're different. They both have their drains, and everything else. If Sidious blitzes Nihilus before he gets drained, he wins. If he doesn't, he loses. It's not that complicated.

And as to your point, anybody can make a case using A, B, and C scenarios. If it gets to that point, you know the discussion needs to end.

They're different because people are unwilling to accept that Sidious can do X because he hasn't ever done it on-screen/in-text. But those same people are more than willing to accept Nihilus can do Y even though he hasn't ever done it on-screen/in-text.

We acknowledge Sidious has a drain. There has been absolutely no evidence that it is instant. At ALL. You're saying that's the same thing as saying Nihilus has an insta drain that we've seen him use a few times, but there's no evidence he can use it in combat against a ready opponent who is as powerful as Nihilus. THOSE things aren't similar.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
We acknowledge Sidious has a drain.

I know you do; that's not what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
There has been absolutely no evidence that it is instant. At ALL.

Correct, there is no empirical evidence proving Sidious can utilize the technique instantly against an opponent. Still not what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
You're saying that's the same thing as saying Nihilus has an insta drain that we've seen him use a few times, but there's no evidence he can use it in combat against a ready opponent who is as powerful as Nihilus.

Not exactly.

I'm saying Nihilus has a drain (like Sidious). But (also like Sidious), we've never seen him use it in a SWVF combat scenario. That is, where both combatants are anticipating an attack of some sort and are not each or both not otherwise bolstered or incapacitated.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
THOSE things aren't similar.

Of course they are.

There is no empirical evidence that Sidious can bring a drain to bear against Nihilus unless Nihilus sits down and lets him work his mojo for years; likewise, there is no empirical evidence that Nihilus can bring a drain to bear against Sidious unless he sneaks upon Coruscant in a Star Destroyer when Sidious isn't looking or happens to render him unconscious prior to.

There is, however, reason to believe the opposite is true.

That Sidious, being an arguably unparalleled scholar and master of the Force and a known expert in the Force drain technique, would probably be able to muster the energy to take down one guy in a relatively short time since he's not trying to drain twenty billion people across a relatively long period of time in order to fuel dark side experiments. Also, that Sidious, having handed a treacherous disciple keys to a similar device, would probably have some measure of protection against its hostile use.

You and Neph have already presented plenty of good reason that I would accept for Nihilus being able to use the attack in combat.

The problem is, I'm just not willing to apply a selective empirical paradigm to this. If we're going just solely by what's been shown by these characters on-screen and in-text, then neither of them can be said to use the drain in THIS SWVF context.

That's all I have to say on it, really. Not sure I can be any clearer; can either accept this or not.

Not exactly.

I'm saying Nihilus has a drain (like Sidious). But (also like Sidious), we've never seen him use it in a SWVF combat scenario. That is, where both combatants are anticipating an attack of some sort and are not each or both not otherwise bolstered or incapacitated.

That Sidious, being an arguably unparalleled scholar and master of the Force and a known expert in the Force drain technique, would probably be able to muster the energy to take down one guy in a relatively short time since he's not trying to drain twenty billion people across a relatively long period of time in order to fuel dark side experiments. Also, that Sidious, having handed a treacherous disciple keys to a similar device, would probably have some measure of protection against its hostile use.

I'd just like to say that I have said he can use it in combat since ****ing duh. I highly doubt Sidious isn't versed in an attack that even a tw@t like Malak could use. Just so like, you know.

Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW, no-one has responded to this yet:

Sidious isn't 'resisting' shit. If they duel with drains Nihilus will surely come out on top.

And you haven't responded to my argument that Sidious can use other force attacks on Nihilus before Nihilus can use his drain. You're suggesting that they're going to stand there having a force 'tug o war' with Palpatine's force power, and that Sidious would never have time to attack Nihilus with any force attacks, which is more unlikely, considering Sidious is the faster force user.

Also, Sidious was constantly feeding on the inhabitants of Byss. No, he didn't suck them all dry at once, but it didn't take him 20 years to feed on their force energies. He was just feeding on almost 20 billion beings within a 20 year period. It shouldn't take him 20 years to consume the energy that it requires Nihilus to use force drain. You're confusing the speed of the attack with how long Sidious was feeding, and ignoring the fact that Sidious wasn't even on Byss all throughout those 20 years. It's like me having a glass of water, and it takes me 2 hours to finish the entire glass. Would that suggest that it took me 2 hours to take a drink?

The rationalization and reaching are unbelievable. Perhaps you should let Gideon do all the pro Sidious debating..

Not to mention again (on S66's point) that Sidious was gradually draining Byss to provide an enduring energy pool for dark side experiments. There is no evidence that he was trying to snuff them all out at once, but that he sought to do so economically.

But I digress. Empirically, neither one can be said to use a drain in this instance.

There's no evidence that he could insta drain, and there's no evidence that he was doing his drain "economically". The evidence for the former doesn't exist. The latter involves a HUGE assumption.

Just as it is an assumption that Nihilus could successfully use a drain on Sidious in this scenario.

That's my point. I think I defended Palpatine's case quite nicely. I didn't make anything up and I think the assumptions are quite reasonable.

But if you disagree, that's fine. I'm just not going to treat Nihilus any differently.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
The rationalization and reaching are unbelievable. Perhaps you should let Gideon do all the pro Sidious debating..

...says the guy who said force drain is different than force drain.

says the guy who said force drain is different than force drain.

Just as it is an assumption that Nihilus could successfully use a drain on Sidious in this scenario.

That's my point. I think I defended Palpatine's case quite nicely. I didn't make anything up and I think the assumptions are quite reasonable.

But if you disagree, that's fine. I'm just not going to treat Nihilus any differently.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
Says the guy who compares a force drain used for 20 years versus an insta drain. Getting easier🙂

Not really, but nice try.

But you did say force drain was different than force drain.

Not really, but nice try.

But you did say force drain was different than force drain.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
And you haven't responded to my argument that Sidious can use other force attacks on Nihilus before Nihilus can use his drain.

I believe I did when I said that even if he did I didn't see how Sidious would be capable of stopping him from draining him.

As to you're post on the last page I will get to it eventually.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're suggesting that they're going to stand there having a force 'tug o war' with Palpatine's force power, and that Sidious would never have time to attack Nihilus with any force attacks, which is more unlikely, considering Sidious is the faster force user.

Not so, I was responding to Tempests suggestion that Sidious will resist the drain and start draining Nihilus back.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Also, Sidious was constantly feeding on the inhabitants of Byss. No, he didn't suck them all dry at once, but it didn't take him 20 years to feed on their force energies. He was just feeding on almost 20 billion beings within a 20 year period. It shouldn't take him 20 years to consume the energy that it requires Nihilus to use force drain. You're confusing the speed of the attack with how long Sidious was feeding, and ignoring the fact that Sidious wasn't even on Byss all throughout those 20 years. It's like me having a glass of water, and it takes me 2 hours to finish the entire glass. Would that suggest that it took me 2 hours to take a drink?

I'm not confusing anything, merely pointing out that just because Sidious could drain a planet over 20 years is no evidence that he could perform a fraction as well off the cuff. Its less about the time he was doing it and more pointing out that he did it through unknown means and without us having evidence of how he did it. The possibility of a ritual or that it took him some time to prepare for is strong imo.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
Says the guy who compares a force drain used for 20 years versus an insta drain. Getting easier🙂

One is a million times more logical than the other. Since Sidious doesn't have an immunity to it, his only recourse is slicing Nihilus up fast.

Honestly, I think you used a lot of rationalizations and mathematical reaching in this debate, especially since the two weren't needed to make a case for Sidious winning.

But you are, and I've outlined how.

I disagree.

If I was to use Gideon's logic and the buffoon's, I would say "if Nihilus can almost insta drain an entire planet, imagine what he would do to one individual"? That's the exact same line of reasoning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not to mention again (on S66's point) that Sidious was gradually draining Byss to provide an enduring energy pool for dark side experiments. There is no evidence that he was trying to snuff them all out at once, but that he sought to do so economically.

But I digress. Empirically, neither one can be said to use a drain in this instance.

I quite agree. That does not mean he could snuff them all out though. The two drains are completely different and non-comparable.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
If I was to use Gideon's logic and the buffoon's, I would say "if Nihilus can almost insta drain an entire planet, imagine what he would do to one individual"? That's the exact same line of reasoning.

That would be pretty reasonable for you to say. There's no empirical evidence, for example, that Vitiate could so much as drain an ant in combat.

I still think he could, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe I did when I said that even if he did I didn't see how Sidious would be capable of stopping him from draining him.

As to you're post on the last page I will get to it eventually.

Not so, I was responding to Tempests suggestion that Sidious will resist the drain and start draining Nihilus back.

I'm not confusing anything, merely pointing out that just because Sidious could drain a planet over 20 years is no evidence that he could perform a fraction as well off the cuff. Its less about the time he was doing it and more pointing out that he did it through unknown means and without us having evidence of how he did it. The possibility of a ritual or that it took him some time to prepare for is strong imo.

Just hurry with with my other post, and I'll respond all at once.