Darth Nihilus Vs Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bullshit. Nihilus is vastly more powerful than them. Canonically more power translates into faster reflexes and speed. I am not saying he is faster than them but its ridiculous to assume Nihilus is some snail-like jackass considering his power.

No, it doesn't, otherwise Savage should have faster reflexes than everyone who wasn't named Sidious, Yoda, Dooku and possibly Windu and Maul. Marek shouldn't have had problems blocking Shaak Tii's saber attacks.

And if you're not suggesting that Nihilus is faster than them, then how do you suggest that he will respond to Sidious' speed any better than them?

I'm not saying Nihilus is a snail either, but I don't see how you accept that Nihilus can just drain just about anyone, but yet you have a problem accepting that Sidious may be able to blitz opponents who are far less slower than him. You just assume Sidious can't blitz Nihilus because Nihilus is powerful, but you assume Sidious can't resist a drain despite the fact that Sidious is also powerful?

Originally posted by Nephthys
In the other thread Tempest and myself discussed this and agreed that it makes sense that even if they have no feats, vast power in the Force would indicate decent ability with a technique.

I agree that the greater force power one has, the better chance he has at having greater speed. But just like all other force powers, speed and reflexes require mastery and honing, they don't just manifest themselves on account of being powerful, otherwise we can say the same about powers such as telepathy.

The masters whom Sidious' blitzed were trained combatants and master swordsmen in the prime of the jedi order. Having exceptional speed and reflexes are attributes required to hold such titles.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also I really dislike the logic that belonging to the jedi in their prime gives anyone superiority over everyone else.

I didn't mean to suggest that, but being top combatants in the prime of the jedi order... well that should say that they'd most likely be at the top of any era had they belonged to them, as being the top in the prime era would be a harder roll to fulfill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tiin blocked one of Sidious' attacks. :?

He didn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? Sidious isn't taking out a Force Wielder of Nihilus' power in a single attack. 😬

But Nihilus can take a force wielder of Palpatine's power in a single attack, especially when Sidious knows force drain and likely knows a defense against it (considering he allowed his apprentice to use a force draining device, and teaches this power to his subordinates)?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he didn't. 😬

Silver pointed out that Nihilus had fed on several worlds. What he failed to provide was evidence that he'd fed on one recently. Tobin and Visas both say Nihilus was suffering from his hunger and had to feed:

Tobin: [b]"The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer."

Visas: "If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station... he will cleanse it of life. ...and if there are no Jedi below, he will have no other choice."

Tobin flat out says Nihilus was suffering since he hadn't fed recently and that his power was consuming him.[/B]

You didn't prove Nihilus was starved or weakened. You just proved that Nihilus suffers from hunger, and that if he doesn't feed, his hunger will consume him, which is not in question, but I was under the impression that Nihilus always suffers from hunger, as the Ultimate Visual Guide describes his hunger as being insatiable. Hunger is a disorder that Nihilus always suffers from, so does that imply that he is always starved?

Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW, re-reading that thread now it occurs to me that Silver wasn't nearly as smart as people thought he was. He was mostly just a douche.

So how come you didn't finish it with him? He couldn't be any worse than anyone here. And I'm pretty sure the arguments you are using here aren't just arguments you barely discovered.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So what? Even if he can drain him which he can't, Sidious has never demonstrated drain in battle and its not like his drain will one-shot Nihilus like Nihilus would. So he saps a little bit of energy. 😖low clap:

You just said that in order to defend against the dark reaper one must drain the force around them to replace the energy being taken away from them, which would have to happen quite instantly. If this is the defense, then why couldn't Sidious just drain the force energy that Nihilus requires to feed, thus weakening Nihilus?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus is a Force Wound so I don't see how that matters at all.

A wound whose powers can be weakened when spent. Obviously there's something there that can be drained.

I can roll my eyes too.... 🙄

Originally posted by mstanford2912
It's really not.
"When my lord spoke, the world died".

The burden of proof is on you. Keep trying though.

The only reaching going on has been displayed by you. And your post is another reason why nobody on here takes you seriously. But lets entertain your stupidity. Sidious' drain took what, 20 years? It drained inhabitants over their life span? And now we have to prove that Nihilus' virtually instant drain is faster than Sidious? Talk about last gasp reaching.

Oh my, did you actually attempt to back up your points? That must have been extremely tiring and hard for you. I bet you get a good nights sleep tonight without needing your zeequil.

Oh my, did you actually attempt to back up your points? That must have been extremely tiring and hard for you. I bet you get a good nights sleep tonight without needing your zeequil.

This must be what it feels like to argue with your children. Oh well, thanks for preparing me for fatherhood🙂

Originally posted by mstanford2912
The notion that it's as instant as Nihilus' drain is also silly. And while we don't see Nihilus really apply it in a combat scenario, we also see no defense for it other than being a wound in the force.

I didn't say it was as instant as Nihilus's. In fact, I'd imagine it is pretty damn hard to use in mid-combat if you're enemy is prepared and not unconscious or stunned no matter who you are (Vitiate, Sidious, Nihilus); commensurate with Bane's comments on the technique in Book of Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What does that have to do with anything? We see him and Kreia use the technique, its not as if it requires a ritual or anything, he just raises his hand.

According to whom? Didn't Traya use it on Malachor V?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also thats a false comparison. I'm talking about how effective it is, which we know in the case of Nihilus since he runs around eating planets but not for Sidious who's only ever done it off screen over 20 something years.

That's not a false comparison. You want to write off Sidious's potential use of the ability because we haven't seen him use it in combat. Where have we seen Nihilus use it in combat?

I didn't say it was as instant as Nihilus's. In fact, I'd imagine it is pretty damn hard to use in mid-combat if you're enemy is prepared and not unconscious or stunned no matter who you are (Vitiate, Sidious, Nihilus); commensurate with Bane's comments on the technique in Book of Sith.

According to whom? Didn't Traya use it on Malachor V?

Originally posted by mstanford2912
As opposed to accusing people of reaching(without providing proof), then engage in the most egregious form of reaching? LOL. Too easy.

You should go back and read my first post that I posted in this thread when calling you guys out on reaching. 😉

You should go back and read my first post that I posted in this thread when calling you guys out on reaching.

Until you establish some kind of intellectual continuity, nobody should be reading anything of yours. I apologize for reading this post.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
The way I see it, the burden of proof is still on you. We've never seen anyone resist it, Kreia says there is no defense for it, and even if I accept the possibility that the only way to kill Nihilus is to slice him up before he can "eat" someone, we don't know if "force speed" is faster than Nihilus summoning the drain.

Kreia used it on Malachor V and on Dantooine, albeit not to the extent of Nihilus.

Ah, Dantooine, that's the other one, thanks.

This is the way I see it. If we allow inference and deductive reasoning, Sidious should be able to make use of Force drain. He is clearly an expert with it and has to his name some of the greatest uses of it.

As to a possible defense, two of Sidious's disciples were known to possess resistance to effects of an eerily similar if not identical technique. The notion that Sidious would allow Dooku to have functional control of such a weapon without some form of protection or redress against it is out-of-character and ridiculous.

But if we must absolutely stick to empirical evidence and exact proof, then this is what we know: Neither Nihilus or Sidious have been canonically shown to make use of the ability in combat. Therefore, Sidious won't need a defense against something Nihilus cannot be said to use against him. And there's a zillion feats Sidious has to his name.

Ultimately, the pro-Nihilus faction is utterly damned if we go the strict empirical route. Sidious, by virtue of his infinitely greater exposure and importance, stands in an appreciable position either way.**

And not to jump on a soapbox here, but this is what I tried to convey to Zamp some months ago. Sidious is very very hard to top, no matter what route we take. And I don't care which way we go; all I care about is making sure that we're all working on the same standard.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom? Didn't Traya use it on Malachor V?

That's not a false comparison. You want to write off Sidious's potential use of the ability because we haven't seen him use it in combat. Where have we seen Nihilus use it in combat?

What are you referring to with 'according to whom?' That it doesn't require a ritual? Thats just obvious. Nihilus uses it constantly subconsciously as does the Exile. We see Nihilus and Kreia use it without a ritual. When did Kreia use it on Malachor? Are you referring to those Sith Assassins she kills?

We see him use it against Kreia. We see Kreia bust it out against those Jedi Masters and we see Nihilus use it on the Exile. All they do is raise their hand and use it. Again, I'm "writing off" Sidious' potential ability simply because we've never seen him actually use. You betray this fact through referring to it mere as his 'potential ability'. In this aspect he is an unknown as much Nihilus' lightsaber ability is. Thats not to say he can't use it, I just don't see how its relevant when he has much more potent and defined abilities.

Really, I don't understand what you're getting at. We've seen the ability in action. What more do we need? Theres no reason to doubt he can use it in battle.

This is the way I see it. If we allow inference and deductive reasoning, Sidious should be able to make use of Force drain. He is clearly an expert with it and has to his name some of the greatest uses of it.

As to a possible defense, two of Sidious's disciples were known to possess resistance to effects of an eerily similar if not identical technique. The notion that Sidious would allow Dooku to have functional control of such a weapon without some form of protection or redress against it is out-of-character and ridiculous.

Ultimately, the pro-Nihilus faction is utterly damned if we go the strict empirical route. Sidious, by virtue of his infinitely greater exposure and importance, stands in an appreciable position either way.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
Nobody said he can't use it. We said it's not going to be effective since the only capacity we see him using it in involves 20 years.

Against twenty billion people. Are you implying it will still take decades if Sidious is narrowing it down to one person?

Originally posted by mstanford2912
Sure, I'll agree that Sidious could temporary resist Nihilus' drain, I just find it unlikely.

Cool.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
No, no he doesn't. Because if they both have their drains, then Sidious most likely loses.

He really does. As you say, Sidious could temporarily resist Nihilus. Can Nihilus temporarily resist Sidious?

Nice.

😆

BTW, no-one has responded to this yet:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Sidious has Uliqs method of resisting the drain, said drain works by calling on the Force to refill your Force energy as its being drained. It doesn't actually stop the drain.

Which raises the question: Does anyone seriously think Sidious can take Nihilus after Nihilus has drained Sidious' own personal power? Even if Sidious gets it back thats gonna make Nihilus like twice as powerful than him. And Nihilus can just keep it up and constantly get more powerful.

Sidious isn't 'resisting' shit. If they duel with drains Nihilus will surely come out on top.

Against twenty billion people. Are you implying it will still take decades if Sidious is narrowing it down to one person?

He really does. As you say, Sidious could temporarily resist Nihilus. Can Nihilus temporarily resist Sidious?

Once again, I realize you want everything set that will allow your favorite character to win, I get that. If we take out the drains, everyone agrees Sidious will wins. But if the drains are used, the outcome isn't one you like or necessarily agree with, but it's the most likely one.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
Now you're reaching. There is nothing indicating Sidious can insta drain anyone. I realize how hard you want Sidious to win to the point where you do everything everyone else does when they want their favorite character to win, but I advise you not to go down this line of thinking, at least in terms of the drain. The only thing I'm implying is Sidious knows how to slowly drain a population. No matter what kind of math you do in your head, there is zero indication that he can instadrain anybody.

So again, you're advocating for the strict empirical route. And in that case, we haven't seen Nihilus use the technique in combat and the entire debate becomes moot.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
I said could, but unlikely, and since Nihilus' resistance would involve years of having his force power siphoned, it's not really an issue, is it?

If we're applying a strict empirical method, no, it's not an issue at all.

So again, you're advocating for the strict empirical route. And in that case, we haven't seen Nihilus use the technique in combat and the entire debate becomes moot.

Originally posted by mstanford2912
No, I'm advocating two outcomes. One with a drain, one without. We've seen him use it on Kreia, we see him turn his crew into mindless slaves, etc. So if the two are allowed their drains, Nihilus wins. If they are not, Sidious wins.

I'm not arguing that we haven't seen Nihilus use the drain.

More precisely, what I'm saying is that we haven't seen Nihilus use the attack against an enemy prepared for an attack without being on a dark side nexus or said enemy being already incapacitated.

Without deductive reasoning and inference, we cannot assume Nihilus can bring that power to bear against Sidious.

When you make that many caveats, why not just go all the way? We haven't seen Sidious face or blitz an opponent with supernatural mental domination/drain powers, who is also ready and waiting for Sidious to attack. Really, lets just add every scenario that helps our arguments?

Originally posted by mstanford2912
When you make that many caveats, why not just go all the way? We haven't seen Sidious face or blitz an opponent with supernatural mental domination/drain powers, who is also ready and waiting for Sidious to attack. Really, lets just add every scenario that helps our arguments?

Look! The point soars gracefully over your befuddled Texan noggin. Focus, Beefy, focus.

I am clearly not supporting a strict empiricist argument for just that reason; it's pretty stupid.

But I'm unwilling for Nihilus and Sidious to be examined by different standards.

The standards are the same. I don't know why you keep saying they're different. They both have their drains, and everything else. If Sidious blitzes Nihilus before he gets drained, he wins. If he doesn't, he loses. It's not that complicated.

And as to your point, anybody can make a case using A, B, and C scenarios. If it gets to that point, you know the discussion needs to end.