Darth Nihilus Vs Darth Sidious

Originally posted by Zett
Well, as Nyrriss showed, force lightning and lighstaber in hand is enough against that "wound".

For the most part. Depends on how much Force energy Nihilus has at his disposal. Think of Galactus, he's far more dangerous when fully fed. Is this a hungry Nihilus? A fully fed Nihilus would be considered Nihilus after Katarr - Sidious doesn't really have a chance against that.

However, Vitiate seconds after the months-long ritual at Nathema was finished would spank a fully fed Nihilus like a baby.

intrepid
umad Temp?

I'm seething with rage, bro.

nephthys
What is so stupid about it? The Force is a universal energy field. It can be tainted by the darkside in places, it only stands to reason that likewise there can be places where it can be tainted to the point of becoming "wounded". All life in the galaxy is interconnected and pain and death is transmited through it and so when a significant number of lives are lost, it makes sense for the Force to sustain a localized injury much like someone who who had lost a limb. "Absenses" in the Force also make sense based on the way the Force works.

Furthermore the concept that mass death and war damages the Force is one thats thematically strong and compelling imo. Life breathes the Force, makes it grow. That death would affect it strongly showcases just how damaging these conflicts are.

War does indeed damage the Force, tainting it and darkening it. That's textbook PT. But the idea that a Force "wound" or "absence" using the Force is hilarious. Not to mention using the Force in an allegedly spectacular and masterful level. The entire concept self-destructs because Avellone abandoned subtlety for the Karpyshyn school of storytelling. Nihilus is great in theory and laughable in execution.

u mad.

It isn't hilarious because the Exile and Nihilus reestablished their connection through feeding on others, not through their own connection to it. And in the Exiles case it was Kreia who forced that on her.

The very idea that you would sully Avellone with a Karpyshan comparison is breathtaking. His writing is more subtle that you can grasp.

Originally posted by Nephthys
u mad.

I told you, I'm seething. Seething.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't hilarious because the Exile and Nihilus reestablished their connection through feeding on others, not through their own connection to it. And in the Exiles case it was Kreia who forced that on her.

Which is a terrible rationalization. Star Wars is replete with them, even by way of talented writers.

Hell, Luceno came up with the dumb line in Plagueis that a Sith Lord has to be on the receiving end of Sith lightning to properly wield it in the future.

When I eat venison, I don't grow antlers. The idea that Nihilus and the Exile can wield the Force after "eating" it in others is pretty dumb. But then the whole thing is, from start to finish.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The very idea that you would sully Avellone with a Karpyshan comparison is breathtaking. His writing is more subtle that you can grasp.

Yes LOL NOM NOM BYE BYE PLANETS is low-key. Not really. It's just that you and Z. confuse low, creepy verbose speech with profound subtlety.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Well i would think the exile was able to harm him bc he was also a wound.

Am i incorrect in that wounds cannot be harmed by the force bc they consume it at all times?

Nihilus tk does seem the most powerful according to feats, why is it he wouldnt be able to crush sidious when it is shown that when a user is stronger in the force than another user that they can fling them around and crush them? Ie sidious vs maul brothers?

1. Nah, the only thing caused by the Exile being a wound is Nihilus's inability to drain her, as she herself has energy to drain. She draws it all from others, in a complicated sort of way.

2. Yeah, you are.

3. Sidious's TK feats aren't so far off from Nihilus's that he'd be ragdolled by the latter.

I think most of the drained energy that Nihilus absorbs is used up to keep him from vanishing away. Unless people think he can conjure up a force push powerful enough to shatter a planet. Same thing with how Vitiate and how most of Nathema's energy was used to make him immortal. They do get an increase in power but not a lot. And Nihilus's TK feat happened on Malachor V, which was a DS nexus. Not to mention that when Nihilus died the Ravager nor the fleet were instantly destroyed, in fact the Mandos had to blow Ravager up via a bomb.

Originally posted by The Merchant
They do get an increase in power but not a lot.

Except that both are stated to be by a lot. Vitiates ritual increased his power 'vastly' (and he gets stronger all the time) and Kreia and Visas fellate Nihilus power quite extensively.

Originally posted by The Merchant
And Nihilus's TK feat happened on Malachor V, which was a DS nexus.

Which doesn't matter since he lifted the thing into orbit and nexus' do not extend that far up. He would still have to lift it out of the atmosphere by himself surely. Besides which the DS nexus is counterbalanced by the MSG increasing gravity.

Plus I highly doubt Malachor can make you powerful enough to lift a capital ship unless you were already prodigiously powerful, above pretty much everyone anyway. Even if it doubled his power its a feat above near all of the mythos in terms of TK. And this was before he started eating planets.....

I don't see why it is difficult for others to admit that Sidious would most likely die in combat with Nihilus. Nihilus seems to be one of the greatest and most lethal individuals when it come to a one on one fight.

Sidious is powerful, but a great deal of his power comes from his ability to command an empire, and his intellect as well as his ability to conjue up large AOE sith spells that take time to bear their effect.

I would think that Nihilus very presence would be weakening Sidious every second they are in proximity of one another.

What ever force powers, as well as Sidious connection to the force, would be weakening every second thus Sidious resistance to being drained would also be weakenning. This also means Sidious force speed and strength would be constantly weakening.

It would only be a matter of time until Nihilus breaks through sidious's constantly weakening resistance, and outrights drains him to death.

Furthermore I agree that Nihilus TK feat is the greatest TK feat in all the mythos of SW, unless someone else can show one? The TK nihilus displayed far outclasses anything Sidiious has ever displayed, thus it doesn't seem illogical to postulate that Nihilus could ragdoll Sidious to death. Nihilus has lifted an entire star fleet from the surface of a planet into space purely upon his own power, he then moved it through space by his own will and held it together, an entire fleet. That amount of TK power being focused entirely upon Sidious would likely instantly kill him, combined with his Wound Aura that eats the Force itself every second would make Sidious's attempt to resist weaker every second.

Just my two cents on it.

Sidious kills Nihilus in 1second. He can block his force drain then pwn him.... Nihilus has ZERO saber skills.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I don't see why it is difficult for others to admit that Sidious would most likely die in combat with Nihilus. Nihilus seems to be one of the greatest and most lethal individuals when it come to a one on one fight.

Sidious is powerful, but a great deal of his power comes from his ability to command an empire, and his intellect as well as his ability to conjue up large AOE sith spells that take time to bear their effect.

I would think that Nihilus very presence would be weakening Sidious every second they are in proximity of one another.

What ever force powers, as well as Sidious connection to the force, would be weakening every second thus Sidious resistance to being drained would also be weakenning. This also means Sidious force speed and strength would be constantly weakening.

It would only be a matter of time until Nihilus breaks through sidious's constantly weakening resistance, and outrights drains him to death.

Furthermore I agree that Nihilus TK feat is the greatest TK feat in all the mythos of SW, unless someone else can show one? The TK nihilus displayed far outclasses anything Sidiious has ever displayed, thus it doesn't seem illogical to postulate that Nihilus could ragdoll Sidious to death. Nihilus has lifted an entire star fleet from the surface of a planet into space purely upon his own power, he then moved it through space by his own will and held it together, an entire fleet. That amount of TK power being focused entirely upon Sidious would likely instantly kill him, combined with his Wound Aura that eats the Force itself every second would make Sidious's attempt to resist weaker every second.

Just my two cents on it.

1. Because he's the confirmed most powerful Sith Lord in Galactic history according to multiple sourcebooks, encyclopedias, novels, and George Lucas himself?

2. His Area of Effect abilities are in practicality the same mechanic as Force Drain. I'm not quite sure on the mechanic of Force Drain resistance, but I think it had to do with one drawing in life energies to replenish what was being lost as it happened. I know you'll probably say that Nihilus will drain him too fast to do this--But remember that Sidious could handle the Dark Reaper, of which the drain could instantaneously wipe out armies. He isn't siphoning Sidious.

3. Nihilus only lifted a single vessel--The Ravanger, not his entire fleet. And he didn't hold it together with the Force--As it still held together a while after his death (it had to be blown up by Mandalorian explosives). Also, while this indeed is among the best--if not the best TK feat in the mythos, it was done on the most powerful Dark Side Nexus in Star Wars canon. This means Nihilus was amped extraordinarily. Normally he wouldn't be able to commit a feat of this measure. As for Sidious's ability, well, Darth Vader was capable of bringing down a Cathedral with his Telekinesis, and he was 20% less powerful than Palpatine. Considering the power of these characters, that's a pretty considerable gap. Even if Nihilus's TK surpassed Sidious, it wouldn't be by so much that he could break through Sidious's Force Defenses and crush his body. That's just silly.

So, you've bet two cents. I am coming to retrieve. 😎

Actually I think a loading screen says Nihilus pulled a 'fleet' from Malachor.

Valid points NewGuy, However I have a few points I would like to discuss with you.

The first is that even though Sidious may have discovered the reaper machine that performs a feat similar to force drain, there are several factors to keep in mind.

The first is that the reaper machine has shown to be able to drain entire armies, this is impressive but not on the same scale as what Nihilus has demonstrated.

Nihilus has shown to be able to consume/force drain entire worlds in an instant, I would say that this far outclasses what the reaper machine can do. Thus to assume that just because Sidious can resist the reaper machine which operates an army scale, he can also resist Nihilus drain which operates on a global scale, seems presumptuous and dangerous inaccurate. It would be akin to saying bullet proof glass that can resist rounds up to a certain MM, can resist a tank shell being fired at it.

Even though Sidious could attempt to draw in life energies to replenish what is being drained from him, there are several things to consider.

1. Could Sidious drain enough life energy from the cold void of space around him to outpace the global unrivaled force drain that Nihilus will be focusing purely upon Sidious?

2. Will Sidious be able to use the force to pull in more force energy into him to replenish what is being drained from him, while Nihilus Wound Aura is constantly devouring the force itself and Sidious connection to the force? IE The very force energy sidious will be trying to pull into himself to save himself will also be consumed by Nihilus while Sidious own energy is being drained.

This is because unlike the reaper machine, Nihilus will be focusing global scale Force drain on Sidious, and unlike the reaper machine Nihilus has the Wound Aura Effect that is devouring the force itself. This means Sidious will have no Force life energy outside of himself to pull into himself to replenish what is being drained from him. It also means Sidious own force energy is going to be devoured by two sources simultaneously,
1. The global scale force drain
2. The Wound Effect which devours all Force energy around Nihilus.

Finally there is the concern that no matter how fast people believe Sidious to be, he is not going to be that fast. This is simply due to the fact that Nihilus Wound Aura will be devouring the very Force Energy that Sidious is using to amplify his speed.

Nihilus in my opinion could use his TK (which is the strongest in the entire mythos going by feats), and simply hold Sidious at bay. The Wound Aura is going to devour the Force energy in and around Sidious, weakening him to the point where Nihilus will be able to Ragdoll sidious to death with his TK, or force drain Sidious to death due to Sidious having no Force energy to resist it.

1. How does this change anything? The AoE of Nihilus's power does not change the effect of his abilities. Against a single opponent, his drain is no different than the Dark Reapers. And considering that he and Dooku have no problem handling the reaper, I don't see how Nihilus is any different.

2. Again, being a wound in the Force doesn't negate enemy Force Powers. Pretty sure you just made that up, or you heard it from somebody that made it up.

Allow me to clarify New Guy, in regards to the wound in the force negating force powers.

Nihilus being a wound in the force, actively and constantly devours the very force itself within radius of him. It does not mean he is immune to all force powers, but in the context I spoke it would be taking an effect against Sidious.

In order for Sidious to counter the drain, he must pull in more Force energy that is outside of himself into himself in order to avoid being emptied of all life forced and subsequently killed.

Nihilus will be constantly force draining him, forcing Sidious to constantly pull more force energy into himself. However the Force Wound Aura will be devouring all the Force/Life energy around them, thus eliminating any external force energy for Sidious to pull into himself.

Furthermore The Wound effect constantly devours all force energy both inside and outside of individuals/masses, thus the force energy that Sidious is using to amplify his speed and physical abilities would constantly be devoured by the Wound Aura.

Sidious will at all times be under assault from two forms of siphoning, the first is Nihilus unmatched Force Drain, the second is Nihilus Force Wound Aura.

The Third is that the first two happen constantly and passively on Nihilus part, this allows Nihilus to actively use his TK against
Sidious simultaneously.

I do not see Sidious resisting or blocking TK that is able to lift an entire Star Fleet which included the largest ship in the mythos, as well as move the entire fleet through space, and create an atmosphere for his mind controlled followers.

It would be akin to the TK sidious used against the Maul brothers, it outclassed them and threw them around like rag dolls even though the maul brothers had TK of their own.

When one of the contestants TK eclipses the others to such an extreme degree, it is as if the weaker one doesn't have TK at all to resist.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except that both are stated to be by a lot. Vitiates ritual increased his power 'vastly' (and he gets stronger all the time) and Kreia and Visas fellate Nihilus power quite extensively.

Which doesn't matter since he lifted the thing into orbit and nexus' do not extend that far up. He would still have to lift it out of the atmosphere by himself surely. Besides which the DS nexus is counterbalanced by the MSG increasing gravity.

Plus I highly doubt Malachor can make you powerful enough to lift a capital ship unless you were already prodigiously powerful, above pretty much everyone anyway. Even if it doubled his power its a feat above near all of the mythos in terms of TK. And this was before he started eating planets.....

Let me make myself more clear. When I say not that much powerful I mean that Nihilus nor Vitiate would be able to destroy a planet with say a Force Push. Most of the energy goes to sustain their current condition, although compared to normal force users yet it is vastly more powerful.

Malachor is one of the most powerful DS nexus's ever to the point that it could have been used to kill everything in the Galaxy. And I doubt the Mass Shadows were able to overcome DS energies that are on the planetary scale. And Nihilus eats planets to keep himself from dying, for all we know the start of his condition he was stronger and can at best regain that potential for a moment. And it's not like he is constantly keeping it together, as seen by the Mandos blowing up the ship.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What is so stupid about it?

The fact that these wounds of the force still have access to the force with no repercussions.

They've created a new concept of the force, made it irrelevant by reintroducing force bonds and then using it as a convenient plot device in order to make Meetra the only one who can stop these foes.

KOTOR 2 was amazing I thought but the force wound stuff sucked.

Actually the concept of a Force Wound was around before Kotor 2. Wookieepedia credits its first appearance as being in the ANH novel, which is almot 30 years before Kotor 2.

Saying theres no repercussions is dumb, since it causes a ton of shit. One thing thats emphasised right from the start is that the Exile is kind of a freak and really weird things are happening with her. Shes basically a Jedi-version of an eldrich abomination. Same with Nihilus and the way he's consumed by his ability. No repercussions my ass.

And theres nothing convenient about it. Its a central part of the game and figuring stuff about it out and how it all works is one of the driving mysteries of the plot. In fact finding out what happened to you and eerything to do with Wounds is basically the whole plot. Its woven into much of the storyline.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Actually the concept of a Force Wound was around before Kotor 2. Wookieepedia credits its first appearance as being in the ANH novel, which is almot 30 years before Kotor 2.

Right, as a wound in the force caused by the deaths of billions of people. This wound did not manifest in a Jedi and you know it. C'mon that's a reach.

Saying theres no repercussions is dumb, since it causes a ton of shit. One thing thats emphasised right from the start is that the Exile is kind of a freak and really weird things are happening with her.

Well yes, any freak accident would have "weird things" happen to them. Except these "weird" things were negated by force bonds and the only times these wounds had any affect on the story was a shield against the Triumvirate.

I'll clarify though. The original concept of a force wound is not stupid. What was stupid is how it was used in this game.

Point still stands, Sidious has no answer for the Wound Aura Effect.

The Wound Aura will be devouring the force all around Sidious and inside of sidious, thus denying Sidious any counter to force drain.

As the only way to counter force drain is to suck in more force energy that is outside of you to replace the energy that is drained from inside of you.

But the wound effect will be devouring all of the force energy everywhere around them. This combined with Nihilus TK that lifted an entire star fleet from the surface of a world, through the atmosphere and gravitational pull, is unmatched.

And yes it was a fleet, not a single ship, it states on the loading screen he pulled an entire star fleet.