Eragon vs. Link

Magic equivalence is assumed to be in effect, but Eragon's control is too specific. He uses the Ancient Language, which manifests magic based on the amount of energy put into the words. He can use the Name of the Ancient Language to control it and break the normal rules of it, but how can that be applied to a magic system that does not use the Ancient Language, or even words at all?

Eragon controls the Ancient Language. That the Ancient Language is his magic system is incidental.

Now, I would certainly let him do this against other language based magic systems on a case by case basis. He could likely screw with any D&D Wizard that uses verbal components to spells, or with Bleach characters and their Kido incantations, or heck, even Harry Potter. However, I see no reason, or even a way, to allow Eragon's control over magical language to allow him to control magic that is not language based.

That's not exactly how it works in the book. Using the name of the ancient language gives you basically complete power over magic.

So while he can't use just the name to strip the Master Sword of his power like Galbatorix did. Using the name to get complete mastery over the Ancient Language should give him the power required to do as such.

Pretty sure the True Name of Ancient Language and the True Name of the Triforce/Master Sword are not the same Name.

Huh, where did I say they were?

Using the name of the ancient language gives you basically complete power over magic.

Just this bit. Knowing the Name of the Ancient Language is not the same as knowing the name of "all magic." Triforce based magic would presumably have a different name, as would Hylian magic.

There is a flaw in the reasoning that Eragon's magic must be spoken. The language is used for the caster's safety by preventing the mind, and thus the spell, from going astray while casting. The only reason magic was given a language was to prevent it from being so uncontrollable by those with the ability to use magic. So, Eragon's control through the name of the Ancient Language, a language describing the true nature of all things in that universe, is over ALL magic, not just the magic rooted in the Ancient Language.

Or, it just lets him ignore the require the rules and requirements of the Ancient Language. Since it was imposed later, the Ancient Language is a way to control magic, but is not necessarily magic itself.

Knowing the Name of the Ancient Language is not the same thing as knowing the Name of the magic that the language describes.

There's the problem that Eragon's language magic cannot be proven to be above Fi, anyway.

Originally posted by jmoul
Eragon could also just bring down a lightning bolt or fifty, I don't think any amount of protection can stop that. Eragon also has the Name of the Ancient Language, allowing him to alter the effects of all magic. He can use this, strip away Link's magical protections, and then have his way with Link for as long as he damn well pleases.

Besides which point, the highest estimable speed so far put forward for Eragon, while superhuman, is not enough so to keep up with Link's own combat speed, Link is going to act first, and Link being superior in all stats bar Sp.A is going to pull many wins based solely on that.

Bring on the lightning.

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to point out. Eragon's magical possibilities are limitless, he can do anything he wants to do so long as he says or thinks the correct words. Heck, even without saying exactly what he wants, he can still cast deadly spells with one word (not counting death words). For example, he could say "Letta" (stop), and stop Link's heart. He doesn't need to say anything more than that, so long as he knows his intentions, the spell to do. That is what Link is up against truly, a guy who, even with the most deadly words in his language barred, can kill a person with a word and a strong intention.

Link loses.

Eragon's magical possibilities are limitless,

For example, he could say "Letta" or stop, and stop Link's heart.

Link loses.

Link's victory is two fold here.

It cannot be proven Eragon can overpower Fi, and in all other scenarios Link wins by default due to his physical superiority.

But if Eragon can do so, he still loses a few simply because he is slower.

If he can get through The Triforce of Courage's protection, the Master Sword's protection, and Link's own mental fortitude.

In Twilight Princess, there is an alternate dimension that reduces your body to a helpless soul merely by entering it. Link is only partially affected, and with the Master Sword becomes immune. There is a mirror that can warp you into an insane blizzard controlling monster by looking at a shard of it. Link stared not only into the shard, but the whole Mirror. Touching a Fused Shadow transformed someone into a monster made of fire that caused a volcano to erupt with his rage. Link has touched three of them with no ill effects.

He kinda sorta resists magic.

Eragon has the Eldunarí and Saphira mentally backing him. Most of the Eldunarí are so well versed in mental magic that they were able to control certain events in the world. All of the thousands of Eldunarí, Saphira, and Eragon can join their mental assault, target Link specifically, destroy his mental defenses and drive him insane.

I do agree that Link does have incredibly strong mental defenses, but he has only ever dealt with one of those objects at any given time. Now imagine thousands of sentient beings attacking, each with the same mental force as ONE of the objects Link was able to resist, all attacking at once, they would easily break his mental defenses and could even kill Link from there. Eragon may not even have to draw Brisingr.

Eragon has the Eldunarí and Saphira mentally backing him. Most of the Eldunarí are so well versed in mental magic that they were able to control certain events in the world. All of the thousands of Eldunarí, Saphira, and Eragon can join their mental assault, target Link specifically, destroy his mental defenses and drive him insane.

Again, they'd need a showing that puts them above Fi.

Now imagine thousands of sentient beings attacking, each with the same mental force as ONE of the objects Link was able to resist, all attacking at once, they would easily break his mental defenses and could even kill Link from there. Eragon may not even have to draw Brisingr.

She's matched the power of the completed triforce itself, something which is said to be omnipotent, but again, statements like that can't be taken as truth. The triforce does have more claim to this than Eragon does, however, if his claim to it is indeed what's been shared with me in this thread.

Eragon's power comes from dragon souls, he has many, but a limited number. There is, somewhere, a definite end to his power. The same is true of the Triforce, which is said to be omnipotent, has shown to be above silly things like time and space during the split occuring in OoT, created an entire alternate world with its own sun and sky to mirror the real world, in an alternate dimension which radiated so much evil power across that dimension that it had to be sealed by the six sages to prevent disaster, and even through the seal it's power could be felt, manipulating the world, mind controlling the entire Hylian army and king, causing earthquakes and natural disasters and creating incredibly dangerous monsters.

The triforce is hardcore, but not omnipotent. Nor is Eragon's power truly 'endless'. Fi's ability to dispel, repel, reflect, and otherwise just tell magic to piss off is on a scale where it cannot be said conclusively that Eragon can bypass her.

The mirror of twilight and fused shadows are just demonstrations that her protection from magic also applies to mind effecting powers. They are not the full extent of her power.

Beyond this, Link carries the Triforce of courage as well, which also has some degree of protection.

Essentially, Link has the exact kind of defense required to best Eragon, it's odd you made such a perfectly lined up thread, honestly.

Still, it cannot be said who is greater between Fi and Eragon. And in any situation where Fi is greater, Link wins.

If Fi can be overcome, Link will still pull wins due to acting first due to how much more physically imposing his non-magical attacks are.

Edit: And drawing Brisingir would be tantamount to suicide. Eragon cannot physically engage Link. mmm

Eragon is pretty well matched to Link in swords as well, and all Rider's swords are able to cut through all but the most powerful of wards, and are impervious to magical damage. So I guess Brisingr is as near an equal to the Master Sword as is possible.

Again you've stated that Eragon's power comes from dragon souls, which are limited. The souls aren't gone after use, and they get their energy from the sun. Also, the amount of energy in each of the dragon souls depends on the size of the dragon when it gave up it's Eldunarí. Many of the dragons were gigantic (take the size of a Skyrim dragon and multiply by 20 for an accurate measurement of most of Eragon's dragons.

EDIT: I didn't say Eragon was omnipotent, I was just saying that he has such a great deal of energy available that he is pretty damn close to wielding a Triforce of his own.

The part about Eragon not drawing his sword is ONLY in the case where Link gets crippled by the mental assault from the dragons and Eragon realizes that he has won without the sword. Not saying it necessarily will come down to that happening, and it probably won't, but it's still a possibility.

What's been said in this thread so far leads me to believe any attempt to sword fight Link is utter suicide for Eragonl. He's fast, and he has by all accounts a good sword, but unless he has much better feats no one has shared, he is not as fast, as strong, or as durable. Even if Fi couldn't shatter his sword, Eragon still would be unable to parry Link's attacks because the physical gap is too wide.

If there are feats I am unaware of, please share them. My mind is open here, when Utrigita provided more information on Eragon's magic my opinion shifted there. If you can give more information on Eragon's combat ability that'd be nice, but currently it looks very grim for him.

What's been said so far does not support Brisingir being anywhere near Fi, it sounds like an impressive magical sword, but I'd need some serious evidence to compare it to her.

I'm not saying they're gone after use, only that a limited number of power sources has a limited amount of power.

As for Saphira, I doubt she's as durable as Fyrus. uhuh

Edit to address your edit:

Ah, I see. Yeah, fair enough. I'm just saying, currently it seems that any attempt at a sword fight will end in Link's favour.

I've been thinking, if Fi is as powerful as you claim her to be, then Saphira should be a part of this battle as well to back up Eragon (granted it may severely lopside the battle to have Link facing a massive dragon and a warrior that is nearly his equal).

EDIT: Eragon's combat feats are pretty extensive: in his universe, only 4 people have ever beaten a Shade, Eragon is one of them, and he faced a second and would have killed that one, but Arya, his elf friend, made the killing blow. Next, Eragon was able to battle Murtagh, another Rider who had the speed of an elf but was completely human, and he battled Galbatorix with swords, who was much faster than Murtagh. Eragon wounded both Murtagh and Galbatorix in the hip with a deep stab.

Those who witnessed Eragon in battle saw him as a blur, moving faster than the human eye could detect, and he even caught multiple thrown spears only to throw them back twice as fast as they came at him, with the near perfect accuracy. He has also taken on entire legions of troops without a scratch (although that is partly due to his wards).

Originally posted by The Scenario
Just this bit. Knowing the Name of the Ancient Language is not the same as knowing the name of "all magic." Triforce based magic would presumably have a different name, as would Hylian magic.

But, with the name of the AL, Eragon could presumably use it to learn or at least change the name of the MS or the triforce.

Originally posted by jmoul
I've been thinking, if Fi is as powerful as you claim her to be, then Saphira should be a part of this battle as well to back up Eragon (granted it may severely lopside the battle to have Link facing a massive dragon and a warrior that is nearly his equal).

EDIT: Eragon's combat feats are pretty extensive: in his universe, only 4 people have ever beaten a Shade, Eragon is one of them, and he faced a second and would have killed that one, but Arya, his elf friend, made the killing blow. Next, Eragon was able to battle Murtagh, another Rider who had the speed of an elf but was completely human, and he battled Galbatorix with swords, who was much faster than Murtagh. Eragon wounded both Murtagh and Galbatorix in the hip with a deep stab.

Those who witnessed Eragon in battle saw him as a blur, moving faster than the human eye could detect, and he even caught multiple thrown spears only to throw them back twice as fast as they came at him, with the near perfect accuracy. He has also taken on entire legions of troops without a scratch (although that is partly due to his wards).

Outside of Eragon's magic, so far I would not say he nears being Link's equal. His offensive capability with that magic is truly massive, but it may not be a viable play with Fi on the field.

So, let's ignore the argument of Eragon's magic v.s. Fi's dispelling power for a moment. We can come back to it but it's an unknown that can't be concretely proven one way or the other at current.

Factoring in just those things that would cause a 'draw' or stalemate because we don't know. So let's look at other things.

Eragon's speed. It's been said to me that his best speed showings have him above Elves, who move too quickly to be seen, IIRC that's about 90 mph for a human sized object when you're reasonably close to an enemy. The movements he fights with are a blur to most, so if he's above Elves let's go ahead and give him 200 mph movements. Perhaps he can throw spears twice as fast as ML baseball pitches? That's about 180 MPH. That's pretty good.

It's simply not comparable to Ganondorf, though. Ganondorf, across every 3D game he appears in, demonstrates highly impressive combat speed, particularly in dealing with Link's arrows, the aforementioned hypersonic railgun spears of super Goron slaying doom. He can deflect this consistently and seemingly with barely any effort, in WW he backflips over them, in TP the animation has multiple stages for blocking multiple arrows in a row, in OoT he backhands them like a man unless you've stunned him with his own lightning first.

Link fights Ganondorf four times in TP, showing he can handle a hypersonic character. He also deals with Zant who abuses his combat teleportation to appear behind Link and attack. He is faster than Eragon.

As for strength, well, even a weak, early game Link is stronger than Fyrus.

Gorons are strong. Very strong.

And he's in the same tier of strength as OoT Link with the Golden Gauntlets.

Even ignoring Fi's massive power, I can't imagine Eragon blocking a blow from Link due to the frankly insane strength gap.

My current feeling is that unless Eragon can overcome Fi, he is doomed. Adding Saphira may change things, depending how strong she is, but it may just be a secondary target with the bow.

Originally posted by ares834
But, with the name of the AL, Eragon could presumably use it to learn or at least change the name of the MS or the triforce.