Nah, the Jedi Palpatine drops are not only featless, but they were beaten and starved by Imperial stormtroopers before being escorted to the Emperor.
Sahdett fellates Sidious good and proper, saying he's never seen such power and speed and how the Emperor is "an ocean of crushing hate" or whatever... but the feat isn't really impressive at all from a combat perspective.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was looking up Kun's feat's from his respect thread created by Silver, and I also stumbled across this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/darth-vader-vs-exar-kun-718125/. If this analysis is accurate, then Vader is the one who might stomp, especially if we include his TFU feats, such as tanking blasts from SK's amped lightning to an opening in his armor among other things, along with his newer Dark Times feats, such as force crushing a tie fighter while the ship was in mid-flight. I trust Silver's argument, considering that I think Kun is among his favorite characters (he made a respect thread for Kun, and he usually makes those for characters he likes, so it seems), and was once of the opinion that Kun could potentially defeat Yoda (IIRC), so I don't think his assessment is a case of Bias for Vader.Also, this http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416334
The jedi are featless, but it's still impressive considering Palpatine gives them prep by handing them their sabers, allowing them to ignite them in order to attack, while he turns his back to them, and he still manages to drop three of them with one swipe of his own saber before they were able to react despite giving them prep.
[list]Exar is at a severe disadvantage against an opponent with the particular strengths Vader possesses. Vader is immune to Force Drain, as per his learning a defense against that effect from the spirit/recording of Ulic Qel-Droma so that he could destroy the Dark Reaper during the Clone Wars. Exar's supreme feat with Drain was killing thousands of Massassi with it, but he accomplished this within the parameters of his dark side-cultivated temples which were designed to focus his powers. This is only roughly equal to the Dark Reaper, which could siphon the energies of entire armies, and Anakin was unaffected by that. Vader's stated and tested invulnerability against Drain renders that power moot.[/list]
Calling this Kun's "supreme Force feat" seems to imply nothing else matters, even though this is a ritual. However, Ulic's knowledge of blocking Force Drain is probably originating from Kun or the same sources Kun utilized; this makes me wonder if Kun could block Force drain from anyone else, if I applied the concept too liberally.
Kun >>> Nihilus, GG. Kun >>> Vitiate, QED.
[list] Exar's Force Blast was damaging enough to kill Massassi, kill a wyrm, and ruin portions of the Massassi Temple walls. However, he did this following what appeared to be a "charging," so to speak, of his gauntlets within pillars of energy.[/list]
Actually, no 'charging' is implied or shown. This seems to be a heavy-handed assumption here. Kun was actively dodging the Sith Wyrm's attacks while loosing blasts.
[list]Later on, when he traveled to the Empress Teta system to confront Ulic and Aleema Keto, Exar's Blast failed to kill Aleema; it only jolted her into unconsciousness despite his professed intention to kill her and Ulic. So it stands to question whether his Force Blast is as powerful as was previously portrayed, especially on account of the aforementioned enhancing that the gauntlets seemed to receive.[/list]
Kun didn't appear to be interested in killing Aleema although I admit that the narration says this explicitly. What he actually does though is simply shoot her across the room with a gesture before taunting Ulic and threatening him:
We already know Sith amulets are deadly:
He didn't "crack Sylvar's skull with his TK" either when she attacked him, merely brushing her off like the miserable fly that she was. Kun knows that neither is a threat to him, and he focused on the only threat he felt appropriate; Ulic in the former case, and Vodo in the latter. Even Aleema knew with all her Sith spell prep, was no match against Kun.
It's not unreasonable to assume that Kun can use low-powered blasts for minor concussive ability. The idea that he can only use them for progressively larger blasts seems to imply he has no control over it, and while this seemed to be the case in the initial acquirement of the amulet, later on we don't see it to be true. His control over his Force powers seems to have matured, and he's had six months or so to master them. And considering they exponentially increase his rage and Force connection, I don't see why he needs to resort to the amulet blasts. We just argue them because they are more visible than his TK.
Let's also review what he was dodging while firing those blasts:
Kressh, Sadow, and Kun are all shown using the amulet for boost/Force augmentation very casually, and the amulet Kun unleashes has zero on-panel charge time, prep time, nor did it exhaust him even slightly. It's wrong to assume they're identical to the earlier ones.
First use of amulet blasts. No prep. He's obviously moving around with the Sith wyrm.
@ Neph, after reviewing the comics, it does not appear at all that he raised Sadow's ship from the surface of the planet via TK. Unless this is quoted somewhere else, it simply didn't happen.
[list]Exar's own TK is rather useless as well. His best showing was easily hurling back Sylvar, which is decent but hardly incredible. Vader has thrown around ships, crumbled cathedrals, crushed massive droids, knocked over titanic trees, used Lightsaber Throw to spin his blade around his body, pushed people across alleyways, torn down structures, ripped apart platforms, redirected projectiles, etc. Kun is immensely outclassed in telekinetic proficiency. TP would never become a factor in this.[/list]
This does not seem well considered. First, if TK is not a factor in this fight, why bring it up? Second, Kun's Force powers are exponentially better than before he became a Sith. You know, when he was the greatest student Vodo had ever trained in 600 years? Unless there's a coherent argument for why someone could explicitly channel the Dark Side a bajillion times into his amulet and sneeze out wall-destroying blasts but not TK more than an un-aided Vader, this just sounds wrong.
Also, throwing people across alleys is not a feat of TK, last I checked. Yoda only TK'd Sidious across an office and over a chair. This is a low showing of practical TK use; in other situations, Yoda's TK is perhaps the best TK shown by any Jedi but maybe Satele Shan, including protecting against the vacuum of space and redirecting orbital missile strikes. Mace Windu, who didn't use TK at all against Sidious, can use it to grip an entire landslide. We wouldn't argue that these people would be TK'd to death by Vader because he can "crush stuff" or "chuck people across alleyways".
[list]Exar's speed is the generic afterimage-related feats. Vader has achieved that and more. Kun has no other especially notable physical feats, aside from possibly smashing a holocron in his hand (though this was part of a ceremony; so it may not have been purely a physical showing). Vader, on the other hand, has slammed people onto the ground so hard the stone cracked beneath them, remained unmoved by the weight of a dozen stormtroopers, torn steel doors off ships, broken nets, collapsed crystalline pillars, broken binders, etc. Vader is obviously more physically dominating. [/list]
LOLWUT.
First, writing off comic book characters as being slower than someone because that someone has "afterimages and more" is pretty ignorant.
Second, Kun smashing a holocron with his bear hand is ridiculous, as is the fact that he smashed Vodo's "stronger than a lightsaber" stick before he ever acquired an amulet:
I'm at my character limit, or near-to, but this guy's Vader bias is wicked strong.
I'd assume he is referring to how the pillars of force energy begin disappearing once Kun begins using the gauntlets; we actually see that in the one scan with the Wyrm. He then posits that the force energy from the pillars is amping his blasts. Now, I am not saying I agree with him there, but I felt a clarification was in order.
Originally posted by ares834
I'd assume he is referring to how the pillars of force energy begin disappearing once Kun begins using the gauntlets we actually see that in the one scan with the Wyrm. He then posits that the force energy from the pillars is mapping his blasts. Now, I am not saying I agree with him there, but I felt a clarification was in order.
I see now. He assumes it was "charged" in the pillars made by the massassi:
These are dark side energies conjured by the collective chanting of the Force-sensitive Massassi. Kun actually penetrates one such pillar of energy and calls the amulet to him, which the narration describes as going to its "rightful owner". It actually seems like the head priest was using it to channel the collective power of the Massassi to summon the wyrm, control it, buff it, whatever but as soon as they lose the artifact, the beams vanish.
The amulet, meanwhile, explicitly focuses the dark rage already present in his heart. There's nothing to indicate the energy is borrowed or amplified to any measurable degree and this is evident in one of the above scans.
I want to see Vader tank that.
I'm the one who said it seems as if Vader stomps, I don't think that's what Silver was implying. And I admit, I said that out of ignorance on my part and from how I read the argument, and the fact that Silver didn't include many of Vader's other feats. I only skimmed Kun's respect thread, and most of the images there were not working. Soo... Correction: maybe Vader doesn't stomp, but Kun isn't stomping Vader either.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Calling this Kun's "supreme Force feat" seems to imply nothing else matters, even though this is a ritual.
He said supreme force feat with drain. Besides, even if it were Kun's supreme force feat, that wouldn't necessarily mean nothing else matters.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, no 'charging' is implied or shown. This seems to be a heavy-handed assumption here. Kun was actively dodging the Sith Wyrm's attacks while loosing blasts.
Well aren't the massassi temples force nexuses? If so, we shouldn't assume that his blasts would be as potent out side of them. Unless I can assume that a dying Palpatine can shrug off the crushing impact of over a ton of machinery, seemingly disintegrating it when it made contact with his body. At least in Palpatine's case Byss became a nexus as a result of his own power, but I still don't assume that a dying Palpatine is almost indestructible off a nexus.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's not unreasonable to assume that Kun can use low-powered blasts for minor concussive ability. The idea that he can only use them for progressively larger blasts seems to imply he has no control over it, and while this seemed to be the case in the initial acquirement of the amulet, later on we don't see it to be true. His control over his Force powers seems to have matured, and he's had six months or so to master them. And considering they exponentially increase his rage and Force connection, I don't see why he needs to resort to the amulet blasts. We just argue them because they are more visible than his TK.
Well other than his blasts, what has he done to suggest his raw power is as destructible as Vader's?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This does not seem well considered. First, if TK is not a factor in this fight, why bring it up?
If you read the whole thread (mainly the back and forth between Silver and ShootingNova), Silver is suggesting that Kun may be more powerful than Vader in the force overall, but that Vader has an answer to all of Kun's combat feats including TK (Kun likely wouldn't do much damage to Vader in that area), and that Vader edges out in most areas where it matters, such as TK.
As far as saber feats, I do agree that Vader is underrated and that he is extremely skilled. He has to be in order to create his own style, adopting elements from multiple forms. But where I do disagree with Silver about this, is that fighting equally with Luke being one of Vader's better feats. I know the ROTJ novel suggest this, but I'm sorry, every other source, including the movie, strongly suggests that Vader was never really willing to kill Luke at this point. In fact, The Ultimate Visual Guide says Vader abandoned his plans to overthrow the Emperor, but wanted to turn Luke over to the dark side in order to save him from Palpatine rather than ruling the galaxy as father and son. Then The New Essential Guide to Characters said Palpatine urged Luke to kill a "dying" Vader; to me, that implied Vader was weaker and the dark side in him was fading out due to his love for his son, which is why just moments later, he turns against the master he was enslaved to for years, and sacrifices his own life to save his son. As of ROTJ, there is so much to suggest that Vader never really wanted to harm his son, and he was truly conflicted. So how can one fight his best when he is emotionally conflicted and unwilling to kill the person he is fighting because he has love for that person? He can't. Vader didn't barely start loving his son after Palpatine started torturing him. But it's still impressive on Luke's part that he was able to break through Vader's defenses, but that, IMO, is not one of Vader's best showings.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second, Kun's Force powers are exponentially better than before he became a Sith. You know, when he was the greatest student Vodo had ever trained in 600 years? Unless there's a coherent argument for why someone could explicitly channel the Dark Side a bajillion times into his amulet and sneeze out wall-destroying blasts but not TK more than an un-aided Vader, this just sounds wrong.
Because Vader is the superior TK user as far as feats go. You can assume that, but that's like saying someone with superior lightning can TK someone like Vader. According to the Ultimate Visual Guide that's basically what lightning is: channeled dark side energy released in the form of lightning. I wouldn't assume Nyriss can TK a TK beast like Vader just because her lightning is potent. They are two different powers, and I don't see why we should treat blasts any different just because the energies are absorbed through an amulet.
Savage's rage and power was enhanced through Talzin's magic, which allowed him to tap into his potential at a quicker rate. His enhancement was such that even his physical body bulked upon receiving his amp. He was capable of force pushing a star ship over a cliff with hardly any training. And in a fit of rage, he force choked and levitated Dooku and Ventress at the same time, and then went on to ragdoll and down Anakin, Kenobi, and several battle droids at once via a force wave. After months of training with Maul, he was said to have become even more powerful according to the official website, yet Sidious was able to easily dominate both Savage and Maul with the force at the same time, holding them pinned to a wall despite both their efforts to break free (it should be noted that Maul has comparable force feats to Savage, such as force pulling a star ship off a cliff, etc). Savage and Maul combined were mere roaches to an un-aided Sidious in a force contest.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, throwing people across alleys is not a feat of TK, last I checked.
If it's done with the force, it is. I believe he is talking about one of the thugs Vader threw across an alley and into a building, causing structural damage in one of the Empire issues.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yoda only TK'd Sidious across an office and over a chair. This is a low showing of practical TK use
Not really. Sidious casually ragdolled and held both Maul and Savage against a wall despite their efforts to break free. Throwing someone like Sidious across an office, is an extremely good feat.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
in other situations, Yoda's TK is perhaps the best TK shown by any Jedi but maybe Satele Shan, including protecting against the vacuum of space and redirecting orbital missile strikes.Mace Windu, who didn't use TK at all against Sidious, can use it to grip an entire landslide. We wouldn't argue that these people would be TK'd to death by Vader because he can "crush stuff" or "chuck people across alleyways".
Well, no, but that's because they are prodigious TK users themselves, and they have feats to show for it. Besides, I don't think Vader can just crush Kun to death, but his destructive power in TK is such that he can put it to good use against Kun. Hell, Vader is capable of duking it out with Starkiller in TK, and has over powered Jedi such as Kota as well as other jedi with it.
Multiple sources conclude that they were equal in raw skill.
Also, on a side note, since no source have confirmed that ESB Vader is more skilled than Luke (sources confirm it was Luke's lack of experience that was his undoing; not his lack of skill), Vader's skill grew not only between ANH and ESB, but also between ESB and RotJ.
Well, IMO, no source should have to point out that Vader was more skilled than Luke as of ESB, that should be obvious. Vader's superior skill would come from his experience and the fact that he had trained longer as a jedi before becoming a sith, which explains his mastery of multiple forms and being able to create his own style from them. Luke at this point barely had any training. Furthermore, Vader was never aiming to Kill Luke even then, but was trying to capture and convert him. While Luke was still very good at this point, Vader should've been able to waste Luke had he been really willing to kill him, IMO.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Just agree with me and it will be all good, bros.
lol.
Also, I don't have much time before work (I can try to amend more during or after) but here's some things I was looking at trying to recall more of spirit Kun, who is explicitly weaker than his flesh-and-blood self:
[list]Kun flicked a finger at me, sending me whirling across the courtyard. I tried to gather the Force around me to protect myself, but the shock at my error kept me from it. I slammed into an obsidian wall and heard a bone in my right forearm crack. I clutched the limb to my chest, but Kun spun me again, smashing my flank into a low wall. Ribs crunched with that impact and I felt something inside go, as well. Kun was enjoying himself, probably for the first time in millennia, the very thought of which made me vomit. Kun's laughter echoed through his stronghold as he pitched me around, dancing me and rolling me back and forth across the courtyard. I thought his actions were haphazard, especially when he lifted me into the air, then dashed me down, shattering my left leg, but even through the pain I had a clarity of mind. He wanted me thinking, not dead, yet, and that made my stomach roll again.
Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go. I slumped to my side and involuntarily flinched as his shade came to cover me. "Just because you never saw me affect the material world, it doesn't mean I couldn't. And even if it is something of an effort to do so, here, in my stronghold, it is a pleasure beyond your possible ken."[/list]
Kun's weakened spirit ragdolls him and breaks bones, something we don't have a comparison for with Vader IIRC, nor even the likes of Dooku. Sidious and Yoda are the only ones in the movie era demonstrating this kind of TK dominance, and they are in their prime comparatively.
To quote Advent:
Finally, there's the matter of what we've seen Exar do as a 4,000 year old weakened spirit. He was able to fry Gantoris from the inside out with a technique that wasn't Force lightning (seeing as how he cannot use it as a spirit; some form of a drain, perhaps), and then rendered every defense of which post-DE Luke knew futile:"...Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him-but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly."
And it also mentions previously that he was seeking any defensive tactic to work. This would imply that he had no defense for it. As Lightsnake would undoubtedly point out, he could've been drawing on the focal points of the temple (or something of the sort), but to actually assume that Exar as a spirit has anything over himself in the flesh is ridiculous. He was stated to be unable to access certain techniques in his ghostly form, and had to draw upon other's life forces to even begin to sustain himself. Even with Kyp "Greenhorn" Durron, Exar as a living being is greater in power.
Plus, post-DE Luke is stronger than Count Dooku in the Force, anyways. So, I don't have much of a doubt that it would work on Dooku.
Remember, DE-noob Luke TK'd an AT-AT walker like it was nothing. The opponent she was referring to in the given thread was Count Dooku, as Gideon has noted, one of the best Jedi in what was it? Ten thousand years? The evidence lends the interpretation that Kun would overpower Dooku in the Force alone, and Dooku's Force mastery is comparable to Vader's from what we've seen. If a Force contest ever became a point of contention, I don't have any serious doubts that Kun, who has explicitly demonstrated the ability to increase his power exponentially would come out on top.
Regarding how much Kun is "buffed" per se, Advent addresses an argument that the Golden Globe is buffing him. It's slightly related, but I am posting it again so her reasoning is clear:
"Kun discovered that one of his great temples was inhabited by a small band of armed humans. But before he could gather enough strength to reach out to tap his energy source, the Force-user and his fellows departed, and Kun again lapsed into sleep.Eagerly, but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, proving for weaknessess and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to suside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active.
Enraged and drained, Ken returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris[...]
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, pg. 49)
The first statement is talking about a Force sensitive human who arrived on Yavin, not any of Luke's Jedi, and the third statement is made in reference to when Kun appears to Luke as a shade of his father, and Luke rejects him. He's "drained", and is "desperate for energy", yet - according to you - he can call upon the Golden Globe, the dark side of Yavin, and other things. To me, if what you're saying is true, then those things do not help him much, if they even do at all.
So, given what I know, and what I provided (and your complete lack of evidence), I maintain my position that Exar, in physical form, is far greater than as a mere apparition (and that Exar > Count Dooku).
And regarding other Force applications:
You're wrong here. Exar Kun had taught Kyp Durron just some "remnant powers" (which would suggest that it was an extremely small amount), and Kyp knew how to summon lightning, or some form of it:"With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusory vipers that struck at him from all sides.
The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke's body. He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all." (Dark Apprentice, p. 339)
Now, from the description given, we can assume that it isn't standard force lightning, but it is some form of it, hence "dark side lightning" could've been used as a loose term for describing the above. Exar does add his power, and attacks with a different technique, though.
And lastly, let's examine that on-panel amulet augmentation again:
"Exar Kun suddenly feels his rage multiply a thousand times, then a hundred thousand times..."
And then you see the blasts doubling in energy with each subsequent attack.
Kun gets progressively, exponentially stronger with the amulet. Whether it channels his rage to TK, use concussive blasts, or sparks suspiciously when the chancellor is being forced to speak.
In GAotS, the same amulets spark whenever Sadow uses the Force, implying that it aids his natural Force powers entirely. Concerning TK specifically, when he tears bricks out of the temple wall in his duel with Kressh, the amulet sparks. When Kressh crushes a ten or so foot tall statue with TK, his amulet sparks.
The underlying implication is this:
P1. The amulets augment rage which augments Dark Side users' connection to the Force. The correlation between rage and bursts of intense Force use is evident in SW lore already.
P2. Exar Kun is already prodigiously strong in the Force, well ahead of his classmates and threatening his centuries old instructor.
P3. Vader is not augmented at all, through amulets or anything replicating their use. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that even if he is at the peak of the un-augmented Force using scale, he is naturally limited.
Conclusion: Exar Kun, even if he were naturally weaker than Vader (Debatable. He very well may be but he doesn't have any literature to suggest his relative level in terms of potential or midi-chlorians), he can amplify his connection to the Force to exceed Vader's and in that category dominates.
I'd like to point out that this sub-forum is fond of using Anakin's connection to the Force, and his rage as valid reasons for some of his higher showings. Therefore, it seems difficult to imagine that someone with a theoretically higher cap could be defeated consistently, except with PIS. And since Kun is already an established dueling master, coupled with great physical strength and ridiculous Force Rage buff capability, I don't see Vader taking the saber fight either.
