Exar Kun vs Darth Vader

In a mere Force battle; consider this: the Grand Mother of Allana Solo, Tenenial, used Aryan Magick spells that proved to be more powerful and precise applications of TK than Vader's according to Luke's testimony and his inability to overcome her powers just after the events of ROTJ in "The Courtship of Princess Leia".

Now Kun on the other hand was able to seperate Luke's spirit from his body - a technique Sidious could have done no sooner than DE according the the DE Sourcebook. Before then, his esoteric abilities were slightly less than those of a clone of fallen Jedi Jorus C'boath, Joruus. Gethzerion seemed more powerful than either in her application of esoteric abilities.

I'm getting off-topic here, but my main point is that Force power does not equate to mastery of the Force, a Jedi or Sith must demonstrate their worthiness of a power, sometimes the Sith would have to experience a technique first hand to learn it. Plagueis knew this, although Vader's pool was 70% of the Emperor's, and possibly far greater than Kun's, his capabilities in various arcane techniques like Kun's Force blasts would prove hapless by comparison.

This is also why I believe Revan would thoroughly defeat Malgus, and perhaps even Darth Bane.

I believe Darth Vader takes this--not only for his large amounts experience, the great skill in Djem So that he carried after all of his mechanical disabilities and the incorporations of the Form, his training of Starkiller, and not his Force abilities that allowed him to wipe entire bridges to debris, hurl objects from any corner of any particular location without gesture, utilize unbeatable Force chokes, unleash Force destructions, use Kitenite or his abilities to absorb lightning that could overwhelm and extremely extraordinary Force user--but also because he his a follower of the Order of the Sith Lords, which only the best of the best Sith affiliated themselves with.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Actually, Exar Kun was a Sith Lord about six months on his own. Not much, but his raw power speaks for itself. Also, in that time Exar Kun made super massassi, sith critters of all shape and size, and designed the hundreds of temples his slaves erected in his honor.

I do think that mere 6 months time is going to be a disadvantage when up against another powerful dark sider who's spent decades and fought more darksiders. Especially as a lot of it was spent on alchemical creations rather than more direct usage.

Corran Horn, I believe.

Yes, and notably a still-in-training Corran.

Originally posted by Q99
I do think that mere 6 months time is going to be a disadvantage when up against another powerful dark sider who's spent decades and fought more darksiders. Especially as a lot of it was spent on alchemical creations rather than more direct usage.

In a mere six months, he's as powerful or more powerful than many other Sith who have years under their belt. It's not length of time but how time is spent and natural potential that appears to matter when it comes to the Force. Naturally gifted people move much faster. Anakin Skywalker has less training than Obi-Wan, yet he outgrew his master and in some ways outperformed him regularly, their duel on Mustafar being the only real exception.

My personal belief is that Exar Kun, Anakin, Revan, and Bane are examples of Force prodigies who scale faster than everyone else.

Yes, and notably a still-in-training Corran.

True, it's not a Jedi Master. It's debatable if Corran was even of note at this point, but he's one of the few Force users I can think of that was physically crushed by ragdolling. Even Obi-Wan got choked and chucked by Dooku and suffered no broken bones.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
In a mere six months, he's as powerful or more powerful than many other Sith who have years under their belt. It's not length of time but how time is spent and natural potential that appears to matter when it comes to the Force. Naturally gifted people move much faster. Anakin Skywalker has less training than Obi-Wan, yet he outgrew his master and in some ways outperformed him regularly, their duel on Mustafar being the only real exception.

My personal belief is that Exar Kun, Anakin, Revan, and Bane are examples of Force prodigies who scale faster than everyone else.

Still, even faster scaling can only account for so much, and some are really good *and* have decades under them.

Originally posted by Q99
Still, even faster scaling can only account for so much, and some are really good *and* have decades under them.

Length of time is a good argument for mastery of Force powers and diversity, this makes sense. I'm not saying in six months Kun is absolutely better in all ways than people with more training, but I am saying that he's demonstrated abilities far beyond what a mere six months would allow. Personally, I think the length of his reign is unrealistic and the writers had absolutely no sense of scale. The massassi we see clustered in Kun's temple somehow built "hundreds of temples" before he even left Yavin IV and went to Onderon to kick Ulic's face in. He also has a dragon's hoard of Sith and Jedi relics, but even if he never slept it seems unlikely he could master them all unless he has some game-breaking learning curve like Meetra on crack.

Also, compare Maul to Kun; Kun would probably donkey kick Maul in a fight, but Maul's had a lot more training as a Sith.

Originally posted by Dolos
In a mere Force battle; consider this: the Grand Mother of Allana Solo, Tenenial, used Aryan Magick spells that proved to be more powerful and precise applications of TK than Vader's according to Luke's testimony and his inability to overcome her powers just after the events of ROTJ in "The Courtship of Princess Leia".

Now Kun on the other hand was able to seperate Luke's spirit from his body - a technique Sidious could have done no sooner than DE according the the DE Sourcebook. Before then, his esoteric abilities were slightly less than those of a clone of fallen Jedi Jorus C'boath, Joruus. Gethzerion seemed more powerful than either in her application of esoteric abilities.

I'm getting off-topic here, but my main point is that Force power does not equate to mastery of the Force, a Jedi or Sith must demonstrate their worthiness of a power, sometimes the Sith would have to experience a technique first hand to learn it. Plagueis knew this, although Vader's pool was 70% of the Emperor's, and possibly far greater than Kun's, his capabilities in various arcane techniques like Kun's Force blasts would prove hapless by comparison.

This is also why I believe Revan would thoroughly defeat Malgus, and perhaps even Darth Bane.

It didn't take 10,000 Jedi to take down Darth, it took ROTJ Luke. Put Darth against 10,000 Jedi and I guarantee you he'd lose.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
It didn't take 10,000 Jedi to take down Darth, it took ROTJ Luke. Put Darth against 10,000 Jedi and I guarantee you he'd lose.

I admit, a direct scaling is ridiculous, because that would imply 100,000 pissed off Kuns and that seems counter-intuitive. So if I apply a degree of interpretation that says "this is clearly hyperbolic, but I accept that Kun is still immensely boosted in his rage", there's still a reason to believe he can burst and overpower Vader. Even a tenfold increase in rage would make him much stronger than he already is, and Kun is already head and shoulders above everyone else around him without the amulets and Dark Side powers.

Of course, this opens up the can of worms of narration interpretation, in which case I say that Vodo's stick is not stronger than a lightsaber (which always struck me as stupid) and so on, but then it would be inconsistent with how we recognize other canon sources, such as narration in novels and I'm not happy with that either.

Didn't Kun's Spirit incapacitate NJO Luke??? That would put him very high above Vader. Since it's Canon that NJO Luke is Leagues ahead of Palpatine even.

It's very impressive, but hardly the only reason why he'd be a real threat to Vader. I admit Vader is not as weak as I had thought, but I still don't see him on the same level as Kun. Plus his OT showings are comparatively weaker. Is this young Vader or OT Vader?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's very impressive, but hardly the only reason why he'd be a real threat to Vader. I admit Vader is not as weak as I had thought, but I still don't see him on the same level as Kun. Plus his OT showings are comparatively weaker. Is this young Vader or OT Vader?

But... It's ALSO Kun at his strongest. So it's Peak Kun vs Peak Vader

I think it'd be an epic fight, with a lot of damage on both sides, but Kun ultimately wins the day. This operates under three heavy assumptions:

1. Vader can deal with the amulet blasts if they come into play.

2. Kun's rage buff is much lower than narration implies.

3. Kun doesn't just overcome Vader with some esoteric smoke dark lightning jazz that we've never seen before or since.

There has been progress made this day. A landmark moment.

I still think Kun beats him fairly easily.

I'm stubborn too. estahuh

I was thinking more about the newfound and consistent civility between two diametrically opposed factions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I was thinking more about the newfound and consistent civility between two diametrically opposed factions.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
SM, Vader hasn't shown to have a defense against some of the abilities you listed that I'm aware of, which is probably the best way for Kun to defeat him;

Agreed.

but as far as the blasts, well Vader can tank an awful amount of punishment and still get back up, so I don't think Kun would drop Vader with one blast, though they would come in handy.

As far as I recall, the first beam that Kun fires punches a nice hole straight through the Sithwyrm. Then that blasts amp up, until the points where he desintegrates multiple Massassi with one room-sized blast and puts holes through metre-thick space-age temple walls.

Just consider, for a brief moment, the power, that would be needed to outright atomize a human being. Then add a little fraction to that kind of power, to gauge the energy needed to desintegrate the rather huge Massassi warriors Kun hits with the blasts. And then, there is the wall-blasting.

I don't see anybody "tanking" something like that, even though Vader's ability to shrug of physical pain is fairly ridiculous. You just have to look to the end of his duel with Obi-Wan in RotS to realize that. Lying around on a river of lava, without legs and with an missing arm, then getting incinerated. Vader is clearly a beast in the "shrugging of physical trauma" department. But getting blasted into oblivion?

Just like I don't think Vader, for all his destructive TK power, would drop Kun in one attack, but I do think it would come in handy in a fight.

I really don't see Vader doing much with his TK.
The use of telekinesis usually requires some amount of focus. Hence we rarely see it used in the middle of fights, despite the fact that it would come in quite handy as some form of distraction. Just think about the ridiculous TK feats people like Yoda (and neven Dooku) have produced in the saga. We're talking about lifting hundreds of tons of material in some cases. Yet, ragdolling opponents on a regular basis appears to be beyond them.

Vader, and correct me if I'm wrong, is no exception in that department, or is he? I've seldomly seen him using TK in the midst of fights, which is not saying that he can't do it. But I don't think one can determine his ability to do so by actions of him, where he wasn't distracted by somebody attacking him with the force or a lightsaber.

That aside: One might consider that even lesser force users have come close to killing Vader by utilizing the weakness of his suit. Even force use against his lifesuit might be decissive in a fight, even if only temporarily crippling the Sith Lord. And, not to forget, Vader is quite limited in his applications of the Force. The more esoteric powers appear to be completely lost to him, while some abilities (force lightning, drain) can't be used to him due to his physical shape. This against the guy who amassed "more knowledge than he could ever use", in particular stuff from Sadow, who even Sidious labeled as one of the most powerful Sith sorceres without even knowing the full extend of Sadow's abilities.

So when it comes down to a "wizard duel", I still don't see how Vader does even remotely have a chance of winning. He might last for some moments, due to his pain / damage tanking abilities and his natural force connection. But survive or even win? Hardly.

His best shot would probably be a lightsaber duel. But even there, Kun is a master of the art, using a pretty unique weapon and style and could probably counter most of Vader's in-duel-TK attacks, should those happen.

Actually its the second blast that blows up the wall and the last one that goes through the wyrm. I'll post the scans in case you want it: