Exar Kun vs Darth Vader

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you offering?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
lol.

Also, I don't have much time before work (I can try to amend more during or after) but here's some things I was looking at trying to recall more of spirit Kun, who is explicitly weaker than his flesh-and-blood self:

[list]Kun flicked a finger at me, sending me whirling across the courtyard. I tried to gather the Force around me to protect myself, but the shock at my error kept me from it. I slammed into an obsidian wall and heard a bone in my right forearm crack. I clutched the limb to my chest, but Kun spun me again, smashing my flank into a low wall. Ribs crunched with that impact and I felt something inside go, as well. Kun was enjoying himself, probably for the first time in millennia, the very thought of which made me vomit. Kun's laughter echoed through his stronghold as he pitched me around, dancing me and rolling me back and forth across the courtyard. I thought his actions were haphazard, especially when he lifted me into the air, then dashed me down, shattering my left leg, but even through the pain I had a clarity of mind. He wanted me thinking, not dead, yet, and that made my stomach roll again.
Eventually, like a child tiring of a toy, he let me go. I slumped to my side and involuntarily flinched as his shade came to cover me. "Just because you never saw me affect the material world, it doesn't mean I couldn't. And even if it is something of an effort to do so, here, in my stronghold, it is a pleasure beyond your possible ken."[/list]

Kun's weakened spirit ragdolls him and breaks bones, something we don't have a comparison for with Vader IIRC, nor even the likes of Dooku. Sidious and Yoda are the only ones in the movie era demonstrating this kind of TK dominance, and they are in their prime comparatively.

Is that Luke?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Would you do so if that was the case?

I just think theres some tension between us, I don't know what it is, but I think I'm open to exploring the possibilities.

Also we should ****.

Corran Horn, I believe.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I just think theres some tension between us, I don't know what it is, but I think I'm open to exploring the possibilities.

Also we should ****.

I will make you my cocksock. Prepare to get the railing of your life.

I have implants. You better be careful.

@SM

When Kun ragdolls Corran Horn (or whoever), was he drawing on the power of any of Luke's students such as Kyp at the time? Because one of the quotes you provided seemed to imply that Kun is able to draw on the dark side powers of his temples if he has access to other force sensitive's powers. If so, I don't see why his ability with TK wouldn't be as sufficient on account of not being able to utilize many of the abilities he had when he had a physical body. For instance, Vader isn't able to utilize powers such as lightning on account of having no physical limbs, yet his powers with TK weren't affected. In fact, Vader's destructive powers with TK increase in time after he loses his limbs as cyborg Vader. So I need more feedback on this feat before I can make an argument. Also, if that wasn't Luke who Kun was ragdolling, then that's not a TK feat beyond Vader's, unless Corran is exceptionally powerful himself. Vader has killed Galen's father by casually breaking his neck via TK, and then at one point he ragdolls Galen right before he captures Bail Organa and the other rebels. As far as Dooku, I'm pretty sure he could have treated Kenobi in the same fashion that Kun treated Corran had Anakin not have been there to distract him. And it should also be noted that according to Jedi Academy Training Manual a light siders force abilities do diminish while on a dark side nexus, so Kun was likely ragdolling a weakened Corran Horn.

Regarding your argument about Kun's powers and rage being amped, I see what you're saying. But having his powers amped doesn't automatically mean he becomes more powerful than someone who isn't amped by something. Which is why I used Savage as an example. Savage's power and rage was amped tremendously to the point that even his physical body showed it, yet he, with the help of Maul, was defenseless against Sidious who was amped by nothing. And no, I'm not suggesting Savage is on par with Kun. Kun would most definitely hand Savage his ass by virtue of being far more skilled and having more range of abilities. But as far as raw power alone, Savage's force feats shouldn't be ignored. With hardly any training he force pushes a star ship over a cliff; in a fit of rage, he force chokes and levitates Dooku and Ventress at the same time; he ragdolls Skywalker and Kenobi along with a bunch of battle droids. And all this happened before he received more extensive training from Maul. He's also easily busted free from a jail cell with a force wave. No, Savage doesn't have access to many of Kun's feats, but his rage and power was amped nonetheless.

While I do agree that all of Kun's abilities would obviously increase upon being amped, but his most destructive feats still come from his blasts, while Vader's come from his TK abilities, and Vader is more consistent in using TK in combat than Kun is in using his blasts (didn't you suggest that Kun rarely uses blasts in combat?). Vader easily killed Mareks father, and was able to crush another jedi's heart. Here are some of Vader's raw power and mastery in TK:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334419
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334420

^ Here he force crushes a jedi's heart.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3094868

^Here he force crushes a tie fighter.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191489
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2191490

^Here he uses the force to levitate and rip apart a giant droid.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3416107

^Here Vader force throws a huge Vehicle. Notice how small the people are to the vehicle who are hanging from it.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334391
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334392

^Here Vader force throws a large stone that dwarfs him in size.

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139131
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-2139132

^Here Vader uses the force to collapse an entire cathedral on himself and others, and he survives it, so his durability shouldn't be in question.

These scans of Vader's TK feats do not even include his feats from TFU, and most of them were done very casually. His displayed raw power in TK exceed that of Kun's display with his energy blasts.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@SM

When Kun ragdolls Corran Horn (or whoever), was he drawing on the power of any of Luke's students such as Kyp at the time? Because one of the quotes you provided seemed to imply that Kun is able to draw on the dark side powers of his temples if he has access to other force sensitive's powers.

Double check the post. Advent, who has read all the books related, noted that the buff if any Exar Kun gets from Yavin IV and his temples is negligible yet he is able to be a serious threat to everyone up to and including post-DE Luke Skywalker. This makes spirit Kun rather powerful, and this is already explicitly weaker than living Kun. The spirit also doesn't enjoy the amulet boosting power.

If so, I don't see why his ability with TK wouldn't be as sufficient on account of not being able to utilize many of the abilities he had when he had a physical body. For instance, Vader isn't able to utilize powers such as lightning on account of having no physical limbs, yet his powers with TK weren't affected.

See above. It's already proven that being a spirit prohibits using some abilities without possessing a living being, and even then it is not the same as being alive. Advent argued this well enough six years ago.

In fact, Vader's destructive powers with TK increase in time after he loses his limbs as cyborg Vader. So I need more feedback on this feat before I can make an argument. Also, if that wasn't Luke who Kun was ragdolling, then that's not a TK feat beyond Vader's, unless Corran is exceptionally powerful himself.

Corran Horn comes from the Halcyon bloodline, which has a special ability to not utilize TK directly, but they can tank energy from Force attacks and redirect it, along with other energy types such as lightsabers and blaster bolts. I admit that I am uncertain if this extends to kinetic energy from TK, so this feat may in retrospect not be sufficient.

Vader has killed Galen's father by casually breaking his neck via TK, and then at one point he ragdolls Galen right before he captures Bail Organa and the other rebels. As far as Dooku, I'm pretty sure he could have treated Kenobi in the same fashion that Kun treated Corran had Anakin not have been there to distract him. And it should also be noted that according to Jedi Academy Training Manual a light siders force abilities do diminish while on a dark side nexus, so Kun was likely ragdolling a weakened Corran Horn.

These appear to be valid points.

Regarding your argument about Kun's powers and rage being amped, I see what you're saying. But having his powers amped doesn't automatically mean he becomes more powerful than someone who isn't amped by something. Which is why I used Savage as an example. Savage's power and rage was amped tremendously to the point that even his physical body showed it, yet he, with the help of Maul, was defenseless against Sidious who was amped by nothing. And no, I'm not suggesting Savage is on par with Kun. Kun would most definitely hand Savage his ass by virtue of being far more skilled and having more range of abilities. But as far as raw power alone, Savage's force feats shouldn't be ignored.

Except the method of augmentation is different. The ancient Sith had mastery over the Dark Side to the extent that they could make artifacts which drained entire planets of the Force, destroyed temples, chuck the cores of stars, and create illusions to attack multiple planets across the galaxy at the same time.

There's also the issue of how many times Kun's rage is being augmented. Not ten times, not twenty times, not a hundred times... A hundred thousand times. Even if he were as weak as say Kit Fisto or Obi-Wan compared to Anakin in base Force power, he is being augmented exponentially more times.

Would you say that Anakin >>>> a hundred thousand Kit Fistos? Or Obi-Wans? Hell, if you want to low-ball here, let's make it a hundred thousand younglings. At what point is Anakin's natural potential greater than a hundred thousand anything?

With hardly any training he force pushes a star ship over a cliff;

I saw this clip; he actually TK'd the leg and it tipped. He did not shove it himself.

in a fit of rage, he force chokes and levitates Dooku and Ventress at the same time; he ragdolls Skywalker and Kenobi along with a bunch of battle droids. And all this happened before he received more extensive training from Maul. He's also easily busted free from a jail cell with a force wave. No, Savage doesn't have access to many of Kun's feats, but his rage and power was amped nonetheless.

Good points, but as I mentioned above the augmentation style is different. And nowhere is Savage augmented as much as Kun. I wouldn't harp on this point if it wasn't narration.

While I do agree that all of Kun's abilities would obviously increase upon being amped, but his most destructive feats still come from his blasts, while Vader's come from his TK abilities, and Vader is more consistent in using TK in combat than Kun is in using his blasts (didn't you suggest that Kun rarely uses blasts in combat?). Vader easily killed Mareks father, and was able to crush another jedi's heart.

Actually, reread what Advent posted which I quoted above: Kun's array of Force powers exceeds what we see on-panel and includes Force Lightning of some dark esoteric type which he taught Kyp. Additionally, he killed Odan-Urr with a wave of his hand, not a mere Force push. So if Kun can choke a centuries old Jedi Master with a gesture, I don't see why he couldn't snap someone's neck, or cripple them in a crushing maneuver. Especially in a burst of augmented rage.

Here are some of Vader's raw power and mastery in TK:

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334419
http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3334420

^ Here he force crushes a jedi's heart.

Very impressive. What are this Jedi's feats? What's up with the glowing cuffs?

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-3094868

^Here he force crushes a tie fighter.

Okay wow. That's disgusting. I give you that. Vader has good showings in TK. Makes me wonder if he could take on Mace.

The other scans are good too, and I agree that Vader's TK is a lot better than I had been led to believe, or was evident back in 2007 obviously due to newer material. One thing I want to point out is that in the fallen cathedral scan he appears to be unhit by anything, as is the couple beside him, so this couldn't be an argument for durability.

My biggest issue for contention here is this:

Explicit rage augmentation implies a higher level of Force strength than Vader could defend against. Why do I say this? Post-DE Luke, who himself demonstrated TK feats on par with his father as you've demonstrated, could do nothing against his weakened spirit.

As Advent has noted above, the amount in which he is "buffed" by temples or a Dark Side nexus is negligible; he must leech to even maintain form, and he is explicitly weaker than his flesh and blood form and is entirely lacking the amulet to boost him further.

If you take a base number and say, Anakin is 30,000, and Exar Kun is 100 (just to low-ball it), Kun's Force burst can exceed 10 million in comparison. That's if Kun's Force power is the merest of fractions compared to Anakin's!

I'm not at my laptop anymore, so I can't address point by point. But are you suggesting that Kun equals 100,000 force users? I don't see anything to suggest that. His rage was said to be 100,000 time more potent which would obviously increase his power by a large amount, but the statement seems to be a bit hyperbolic and just a fancy way of saying "his rage was far greater than it had been before he had his amulet."

Also, I see what you're saying in that the spirit of Kun wouldn't be as powerful since he didn't have his amulet or access to many of his abilities. But regardless of how weak Kun is in spirit form, if Luke doesn't have a defense against the sorcery Kun used on him, it wouldn't matter how powerful Luke is. It's like superman doesn't have a defense against Kyptonite, but that wouldn't mean the person using Krytonite against him is far more powerful.

Also, do you still think Kun stomps?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm not at my laptop anymore, so I can't address point by point. But are you suggesting that Kun equals 100,000 force users? I don't see anything to suggest that. His rage was said to be 100,000 time more potent which would obviously increase his power by a large amount, but the statement seems to be a bit hyperbolic and just a fancy way of saying "his rage was far greater than it had been before he had his amulet."

No, that is indeed a bit hyperbolic. But his rage is multiplied on a scale well beyond reasonable. Even if you said "well, clearly this number does not scale linearly", the fact remains that he is buffed onto a whole 'nother plane. Using the amulet, Force users can probably 'burst' very high, and my suspicion is that Kun already has incredible Force talent compared to his era, like Ulic does or like Revan and Meetra did, and therefore the amulet just sets him above everyone else already naturally at his level.

Also, I see what you're saying in that the spirit of Kun wouldn't be as powerful since he didn't have his amulet or access to many of his abilities. But regardless of how weak Kun is in spirit form, if Luke doesn't have a defense against the sorcery Kun used on him, it wouldn't matter how powerful Luke is. It's like superman doesn't have a defense against Kyptonite, but that wouldn't mean the person using Krytonite against him is far more powerful.

The question is then could Vader defend himself against whatever esoteric powers Kun possesses? Could he fortify himself against those blasts, powerful burst Force usage, and uber darkness soul searing lightning.

Also, do you still think Kun stomps?

I have a newfound respect for Vader's Force power, so I'm not thinking it's an epic stomp. However, it's very hard to quantify Kun as a normal Force user and this leads me to believe he is to Anakin what say, Yoda is to Obi-Wan or Mace. He's never shown with an equal in the Force, and his only equal in saber usage was himself a master swordsman.

The cathedral feat from Vader, there is another scan where Palpatine has him recovering, and states that Vader was buried beneath it.

And as for the jedi whose heart was crushed by Vader, Temp might know more of his feats. I haven't been really following Dark Times issue, but I think he has.

Kun was considerably more powerful than Savage was before either amp.

SM, Vader hasn't shown to have a defense against some of the abilities you listed that I'm aware of, which is probably the best way for Kun to defeat him; but as far as the blasts, well Vader can tank an awful amount of punishment and still get back up, so I don't think Kun would drop Vader with one blast, though they would come in handy. Just like I don't think Vader, for all his destructive TK power, would drop Kun in one attack, but I do think it would come in handy in a fight.

@Neph, what do you mean? Kun was more powerful before receiving his amp than Savage was before receiving his?

Yes.

Base Kun was still one of the strongest Jedi alive who beat Vodo, who called him the most formidable student he'd ever seen. Then he got his amulet.

Base Savage was just some random dude. Then Talzin amped him with sorcery.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

Base Kun was still one of the strongest Jedi alive who beat Vodo, who called him the most formidable student he'd ever seen. Then he got his amulet.

Base Savage was just some random dude. Then Talzin amped him with sorcery.

Right before Kun got mad and beat him in turn. Kun's rage seems to help even in padawan form, as he rage pwned Sylvar pretty easily.

Sids, fair enough. We have food for thought and maybe someone else can elaborate where we left off.

When Exar Kun died, was he at his peak?

Yes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
SM, Vader hasn't shown to have a defense against some of the abilities you listed that I'm aware of, which is probably the best way for Kun to defeat him; but as far as the blasts, well Vader can tank an awful amount of punishment and still get back up, so I don't think Kun would drop Vader with one blast, though they would come in handy. Just like I don't think Vader, for all his destructive TK power, would drop Kun in one attack, but I do think it would come in handy in a fight.

I would agree with this assessment, except that the thing is that Kun's blasts double in power each time. Even if its only annoying to Vader at first (likely, considering how tough he is), after a few times Vader would be simply overwhelmed imo.

I am pleased with this civility.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Because of Neph and Intrepid's argument, I'm doing this.

Battle takes place on a barren wasteland.

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. Hand-to-Hand

4. Blasters

5. All-Out

If this were Zonakin, he might win. Actually, he probably would win.