On Free Will

The idea of free will or an absence of hard determinism or inescapable fate is an interesting real world concept, but I wanted to discuss it within the context of Star Wars EU. To clarify, this is using both EU concepts and the movies where available to flesh out this idea. Ask yourself: does free will exist in this mythos? Why or why not?

Consider the following examples -

[list]
[*] The Chosen One prophecy
[*] The Sith'ari
[*] Yoda's philosophy on the future
[*] Scourge's visions
[/list]

Also consider the ways in which the Jedi and Sith both view this problem. It could be argued that the Jedi are passive to fate, but the Sith claim to be fated to win. On the flip side, the Jedi beleive in self actualization and development, while Sith seem to follow a kind of self-determination.

Use any examples you can to make this an engaging discussion!

There seems to be some free will, some determinism- The Force tries to direct things one way, but things don't have to go down that path. The Chosen One prophecy was kinda wrong, it ended up *really* being Luke finishing the job.

Scourge's prophecies only happened because he chose to self-fulfill them, I'd say.

The Sith'ari, well, it's vague enough that it could be described as, "A thing various Sith will try to do occasionally."

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The idea of free will or an absence of hard determinism or inescapable fate is an interesting real world concept, but I wanted to discuss it within the context of Star Wars EU. To clarify, this is using both EU concepts and the movies where available to flesh out this idea. Ask yourself: does free will exist in this mythos? Why or why not?

Consider the following examples -

[list]
[*] The Chosen One prophecy
[*] The Sith'ari
[*] Yoda's philosophy on the future
[*] Scourge's visions
[/list]

Also consider the ways in which the Jedi and Sith both view this problem. It could be argued that the Jedi are passive to fate, but the Sith claim to be fated to win. On the flip side, the Jedi beleive in self actualization and development, while Sith seem to follow a kind of self-determination.

Use any examples you can to make this an engaging discussion!

I mean look at Anakin Solo becoming Caedus and altering the course of the cosmos.

I have to agree with the Sith in that there is free will - but actualizing free will is limited by, well, the limitations of the individual...lol

Revan and Mace Windu demonstrated the superior power of Potentium - and what using the dark and the light can achieve. Plagueis was on to something as well, I think.

Anakin Skywalker never really had a chance to think about it, he went insane in Ep. II - and rightfully so...long before Revan. I mean, can you imagine being a slave in a desert, then being a celibate Jedi was absolutely no normal social interaction or attention other than for beasting other aspiring Jedi and impressing your trigger happy master (Kenobi), for 10 years? The Jedi really messed him up, before going into war like a bunch of automatons following the senate's every command. Anakin's life is depressing as ****.

Luke's even more so, he basically gave up his own will and did not act for himself - yet he ended up killing and slaughtered Sith and Yuuzhan Vong like a mad man.

There certainly does seem to be some kind of determinism. I'll let Revan speak here:

“That is the way of the Force,” Revan said. “Cause and effect are not a simple linear relationship. The Force transcends space and time; it flows through us and around us; it influences our past, present, and future. Maybe I spoke to you of visions because I knew the Force was trying to reach out to me. Or maybe Meetra came to Dromund Kaas because I told you someone was coming to rescue me.”

The Force appears to actively have a will, influencing some events, showing people visions that cause them to act in a certain way. Think, if the Force has a will as it appears, and is outside of time, is it not possible for it to guide things towards the paths that it wants?

In the case in Revan it certainly seemed to. Scourge has two visions, both showing a possible future. In one, Vitiate destroys Revan and Meetra + mindfcks him and the other showing the victory of the Hero of Tython. But why did he have those visions specifically?

“They guide us,” Revan explained. “They give us focus. They show us a goal to strive for, or something we can work to prevent.”

Those two visions served to influence Scourge into making a choice, the choice the Force wanted him to. They perfectly lead him to his decision, and through that decision, the fall of Vitiate. Now could you say that he made those choices independently? He was manipulated into making a choice. The two visions determined that he would act in that way. The Force appears to be outside of time, able to shows visions of the future as it wills. But it also shows images of possible futures, as it did with Scourge. But showing him that possible future made sure it would not come to pass. In this way the Force chose what it wanted to happen.

Revan takes it even further than just that though. He says it influences ALL events. Huh. Lets take this further. What if the Force determines how many midichlorians someone is born with? Its not totally up to genetics after all. Cause and effect remember? In this, we would see a sinister will in the Force. The right person born with the right amount of power has startling effects. And not good ones most of the time. Palpatine, for instance. Why was Palpatine born with so much power? Random luck? A fluke of genetics? The will of the Force, putting on a macabre puppetshow with the galaxy as its marionettes?

This idea was the backdrop for Kreia's character in Kotor II. She hated this concept. Her belief was that the only person who was truly free was the Exile because of this. Because she was the only one who rejected the Force. Was she wrong? I don't think so. Say what you want about her, but she seemed right in that to me.

Originally posted by Oneness
I mean look at Anakin Solo becoming Caedus and altering the course of the cosmos.

You mean Jacen Solo.

For an interesting bit on Prophecies, read the KotoR comic's first arc. The Jedi Covenant strongly believes it's following the will of the force and heavily relies on seers, and acts to prevent a vision they saw. In reality, they probably weren't doing anything like the force's plan for them, and Zayne helped to be their undoing, aided by some less-forced visions of his own.

One of the things in favor of free will is the mere existence of the Sith- The Force seems to favor the light side pretty consistently when push comes to shove, and it also has huge millennia-long periods where the Jedi are largely uncontested. Yet the Sith keep popping up because people have their own desires.

I approach free will in the mythos like I approach it in real. Let's the force with "God". My long held belief is that there are two answers to free will vs. determinism. As far as fallible humans are concerned, we have free will. As far as an all powerful, omnisicent god/the force/father/son/daughter are concerned, everything is predetermined from their point of view. So is free will an illusion or can we really say it exists because we are fallible and because we cannot comprehend infallible beings?

Originally posted by psmith81992
I approach free will in the mythos like I approach it in real. Let's the force with "God". My long held belief is that there are two answers to free will vs. determinism. As far as fallible humans are concerned, we have free will. As far as an all powerful, omnisicent god/the force/father/son/daughter are concerned, everything is predetermined from their point of view. So is free will an illusion or can we really say it exists because we are fallible and because we cannot comprehend infallible beings?

This doesn't strike me as very clear. Can you elaborate?

Neph and Q99 have some very good points and extra kudos for using canon sources.

Also, Oneness, your post almost implies we should pity Anakin for being raised from a desert slave to an intergalatic monk-policeman who gets to live among virtuous paragons in relative wealth and comfort and has ten years of training before he has his first major fall. Not to get derailed, but Anakin had it ideal compared to most, and he was an endearing child before he was accepted in.

Yeah Anakin sure had it tough, being freed from slavery, being one of the most powerful men alive, having great friends and colleagues and getting to bang Natalie Portman. The unlucky s.o.b.

I would bleed tears in this case.

Let me raise another question for discussion: Is the Force itself a form of fate or deterministic all-pervading power?

Both? The Will of the Force is a very real thing and there is distinct feeling that events need to occur as they are fated to.

The prophecy of the Chosen One was made centuries before Plagueis and Palpatine unbalanced the Force and pushed the Force into defending itself by spawning Anakin. The prophecy was only made because they performed that ritual. And the prophecy necessitates that they would perform it, otherwise the prophecy would never have been made. Therefore, even before they were born it was decided that they would perform that ritual, that the Chosen One would be born and that he would bring balance to the Force. And remember, the prophecy came from the Force in the first place. The whole thing is just a massive self-fulfilling loop.

This doesn't strike me as very clear. Can you elaborate?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah Anakin sure had it tough, being freed from slavery,

Why didn't they free his mother? They certainly had the resources, they're the ****ing Jedi order. No, he found his mom in concentration camp, watched her die, and went psycho.

being one of the most powerful men alive,

No one at his age would have been mature enough for that responsibility.

having great friends and colleagues

Pieces of shit who have no free will, and an overcritical master with some dark side in him - if Qui Gon or Yoda had trained him, he would never have fallen to the temptation of lust.

and getting to bang Natalie Portman. The unlucky s.o.b.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I would bleed tears in this case.

Let me raise another question for discussion: Is the Force itself a form of fate or deterministic all-pervading power?

Since it can be defied, I'd say it's somewhat a force of fate, but it only guides things that way, it's not purely deterministic.

A friend of mine brought up Ben Kenobi's talk to Luke during the remote training session, where he says it both guides one's hand but also obeys ones commands. If this indicative of how the Jedi see the Force, this implies some rather mild guidance on its behalf. My buddy also brought up how inconsistentthe Jedi are in ffollowing its guidance. When Yuon Par says the Force is guiding the Jedi Counselor's training the Council considers it unorthodox but indulges her because of her standing.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
A friend of mine brought up Ben Kenobi's talk to Luke during the remote training session, where he says it both guides one's hand but also obeys ones commands. If this indicative of how the Jedi see the Force, this implies some rather mild guidance on its behalf. My buddy also brought up how inconsistentthe Jedi are in ffollowing its guidance. When Yuon Par says the Force is guiding the Jedi Counselor's training the Council considers it unorthodox but indulges her because of her standing.

They're ignorant, they lie to themselves, they hide information from their students.

They are equals to the Sith in their deeds, you can righteously do something that's complete different than torturing an innocent puppy, that has far worse repercussions galaxy-wide; the Jedi did this by stealing Anakin from his mother, yet they always get the moral upper-hand and win...

But as for the Force itself, it is neither good or bad, it guides a being to carry out his or her will successfully. It's basically a way to manipulate reality.

The Jedi didn't steal Anakin, they saved him from slavery. What assholes.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi didn't steal Anakin, they saved him from slavery. What assholes.

In fact, Anakin's life story should be precedence of free will>prophecy or "destiny" - in that the prophecy was different from the vision of the Jedi scholar who made it; or the Jedi Masters who read it would have done things differently. Of course there's the question of the completeness of the scholar's vision - in which case I'll refer to Jacen* Solo altering the course of events within the vision he saw - effectively changing the future and unleashing Abeloth the Bringer of Chaos.

It would appear that Force users make their own destinies - being fully surrendered to the Will of the Force, Luke's life events and destiny may as well have been a manifestation of his will influenced by the collected Will of all the life that also influenced the Will the Force.

So what did your parents do to you that makes you so strongly identify with Anakin Skywalker?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So what did your parents do to you that makes you so strongly identify with Anakin Skywalker?

I see mistakes I've made in the past as disappointing to other's expectations of me, that's why I might relate to Anakin Skywalker - but at the same time I believe that it's never too late actualize my potential.

Even Skywalker could find a way to come back - as Jedi ghosts can embody living hosts (Darth Plagueis Novel).