On Free Will

Started by Oneness3 pages
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't particularly care about your politics, I was responding to your laughable claims that the galaxy was better off under the Empire

In more ways than not. The Republic could not agree on anything, there was no synchronization, there was far less industry and autonomy so the galaxy was falling into economic inequality under Republic, which is why the Separatists were so successful in recruiting so many systems in the out rim to their cause. And what did the Jedi do? They followed the orders of the corrupt senate - run by the wealthy that were causing most of the galactic community to suffer from their inequality creating this conflict in the first place (more so than Palpatine who merely used the conflict to gain power over a system that actually got rid of this inequality of wealth) - like mindless automatons, bringing fire and death to the outer rim.

and that the Rebels were just a bunch of greedy assholes.

Do you know what kind of death and destruction they caused when they threw the Empire into a chaotic competition for hierarchy. The Republic forming afterward, sucked because - more than the Old Republic there was a lack of centrality - and fell apart. They literally needed a New Rebellion. The Yuuzhan Vong would not have even invaded if the Empire had still been around.

Yes, the Empire was the lesser of two evils if we're considering overall suffering. I don't recall enslaving or slaughtering aliens exclusively, and the outer rim (aliens and humans included) were a lot better off. There's a reason that beings kept trying to re-install the Empire two and a quarter centuries after its fall (Fell).

Tatooine was one of millions of systems that could get away with slavery in your "golden Republic". smh...>😉

Originally posted by Oneness
In more ways than not. The Republic could not agree on anything, there was no synchronization, there was far less industry and autonomy so the galaxy was falling into economic inequality under Republic, which is why the Separatists were so successful in recruiting so many systems in the out rim to their cause. And what did the Jedi do? They followed the orders of the corrupt senate - run by the wealthy that were causing most of the galactic community to suffer from their inequality creating this conflict in the first place (more so than Palpatine who merely used the conflict to gain power over a system that actually got rid of this inequality of wealth) - like mindless automatons, bringing fire and death to the outer rim.

Most of which was because of the machinations of the Sith, not the actual failings of the Republic. And you can't blame the Jedi for any of this because the Jedi are simply a peacekeeping force. They don't have the training or the right to interfere with politics.

Originally posted by Oneness
Do you know what kind of death and destruction they caused when they threw the Empire into a chaotic competition for hierarchy. The Republic forming afterward, sucked because - more than the Old Republic there was a lack of centrality - and fell apart. They literally needed a New Rebellion. The Yuuzhan Vong would not have even invaded if the Empire had still been around.

Yes, the Empire was the lesser of two evils if we're considering overall suffering. I don't recall enslaving or slaughtering aliens exclusively, and the outer rim (aliens and humans included) were a lot better off. There's a reason that beings kept trying to re-install the Empire two and half decades after its fall (Fell).

Tatooine was one of millions of systems that could get away with slavery in your "golden Republic". smh...> )

Which was not the fault of the Rebels, but the fault of the Empire for being such a horrible dictatorship that caused the Rebellion in the first place. The Empire created the conflict through its evil, forcing the people to rise up in rebellion. It wasn't the Rebellion who caused this death and destruction, it was Palpatine and the Sith for corrupting the Republic, manufacturing a massive galactic war, massacring the greatest defense the galaxy had in the Jedi, overthrowing the democratic process and oppressing the galaxies citizens for 2 decades. THAT is what led to the galaxies downfall, not the Rebellion.

And no, I disagree on your estimation of the Vongs chances vs the Empire:

"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done." - Han Solo.

Tatooine wasn't a member of the Republic, it was ruled by the Hutts.

You deceptive little bewb,.

Quit repeating yourself.

Only if you quit hitting yourself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Most of which was because of the machinations of the Sith, not the actual failings of the Republic. And you can't blame the Jedi for any of this because the Jedi are simply a peacekeeping force. They don't have the training or the right to interfere with politics.

The Rebels were just like the Jedi, violently acting out on matters beyond their comprehension.

Which was not the fault of the Rebels, but the fault of the Empire for being such a horrible dictatorship that caused the Rebellion in the first place. The Empire created the conflict through its evil, forcing the people to rise up in rebellion. It wasn't the Rebellion who caused this death and destruction, it was Palpatine and the Sith for corrupting the Republic, manufacturing a massive galactic war, massacring the greatest defense the galaxy had in the Jedi,

Sidious only provided the Republic with a clone army and had immense control of the Separatists in secret as well - but the >Empire disparity and lack of stability had been there long before Sidious was conceived.

overthrowing the democratic process and oppressing the galaxies citizens for 2 decades.

Forcefully liberate is a better word. True, their ethics were questionable - but they did gain a hold over the galaxy, and provided for the outer rim and inner rim fairer equality. Palpatine was past wealth, he had unlimited power, so in a lot of ways he was less evil than the Bureaucrats of the Republic. That's more than the Republic showed capable of doing, Old and New.

"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done." - Han Solo.

Han Solo is not equipped to gauge what the **** the Empire would have done.

Tatooine wasn't a member of the Republic, it was ruled by the Hutts.

The Republic were very poor at bringing stability long before the First Sith Empire, much less Palpatine.

I maintain the fact that the Empire saw more prosperity, technological progress, and higher learning and basically super-education systems, than did the old and new Republic.

I was kinda hoping someone would come in and laugh at you for me, but oh well.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Rebels were just like the Jedi, violently acting out on matters beyond their comprehension.

Except for the fact that the founding members and leaders of the Rebellion were senators and the few people alive who actually knew what was going on with regards to Palpatines takeover and the horror of the Empire:

Bail Organa
Galen Marek
Dodonna
Mon Mothma
Leia
etc

Originally posted by Oneness
Sidious only provided the Republic with a clone army and had immense control of the Separatists in secret as well - but the >Empire disparity and lack of stability had been there long before Sidious was conceived.

As I recall the Sith had been undermining the Republic from within for quite some time. As I said, the Republic was corrupt because the Sith had corrupted it for generations. And Sidious didn't just give the Republic an army, he was behind the creation of the CIS as well.

Also I think you mean 'Republics disparity'. 😉

Originally posted by Oneness
Forcefully liberate is a better word.

Laugh my ****ing ass off!

Sure, forcefully liberating the people by taking away all their rights and freedom! That are smatr.

Originally posted by Oneness
True, their ethics were questionable - but they did gain a hold over the galaxy, and provided for the outer rim and inner rim fairer equality.

Imperialism ho!

Originally posted by Oneness
Palpatine was past wealth, he had unlimited power, so in a lot of ways he was less evil than the Bureaucrats of the Republic. That's more than the Republic showed capable of doing, Old and New.

shocklaugh

Sure, and in another way he murdered billions-trillions of people so in no way is he less evil than the 'eeeeevil greedy bureaucrats'.

Originally posted by Oneness
Han Solo is not equipped to gauge what the **** the Empire would have done.

lol

Originally posted by Oneness
The Republic were very poor at bringing stability long before the First Sith Empire, much less Palpatine.

I maintain the fact that the Empire saw more prosperity, technological progress, and higher learning and basically super-education systems, than did the old and new Republic.

No really. I recall the Old Republic being fairly stable before Sadow and his goons ****ed everything up.

Yeah, the Empire was great. If you were human. And a man. And white. Then it was great! It saw more technological progress only in the area of warfare because they were ****ing lunatics unbound from ethics. Of course you're going to make better progress when you're not concerned over the deathtoll.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was kinda hoping someone would come in and laugh at you for me, but oh well.

A lot of people identify with the Empire, because not everyone is a fool who buys into GL's philosophy.

Except for the fact that the founding members and leaders of the Rebellion were senators and the few people alive who actually knew what was going on with regards to Palpatines takeover and the horror of the Empire:

Bail Organa
Galen Marek
Dodonna
Mon Mothma
Leia
etc

As I said, fools throwing the galaxy into chaos. You associate with them cause Lucas says "sympathize with them", and you subjectively do so. The Rebellion ****ed up the galaxy, therefore, objectively, they're the bad guys.

As I recall the Sith had been undermining the Republic

Along with the entire poverty stricken outer rim.

from within for quite some time. As I said, the Republic was corrupt because the Sith had corrupted it for generations. And Sidious didn't just give the Republic an army, he was behind the creation of the CIS as well.

That was started with Darth Tenebrous and finished with Sidious, and btw Dooku's resources, along with the Separatist leaders and all the broke ass Outer Rim territories made it possible. Now if only Americans could reproduce that feat and get some equality back.

Also I think you mean 'Republics disparity'. 😉

Which was greater than Empire's, yes.

Laugh my ****ing ass off!

Sure, forcefully liberating the people by taking away all their rights and freedom! That are smatr.

Yes, smart. It's called a police state, they forced the systems to get along through suppressing their ability to secede.

Imperialism ho!

Capitalist ho!

shocklaugh

Sure, and in another way he murdered billions-trillions of people so in no way is he less evil than the 'eeeeevil greedy bureaucrats'.

Not the Empire, the Republic's inequality of wealth and the Jedi's blind obedience are responsible for that. The outer rim territories that brought that war suffered more heavily than the snug rich bastards in the core worlds.

lol

As you once said, "that's a good argument".

No really. I recall the Old Republic being fairly stable before Sadow and his goons ****ed everything up.

We're talking about Lucas' story here.

Yeah, the Empire was great.

It really was, you have increased productivity, better job market, higher living standards for everyone who didn't join the violent Rebellion against the Empire at the beck and call of fools without a plan to implement a better society.

If you were human. And a man. And white. Then it was great! It saw more technological progress only in the area of warfare because they were ****ing lunatics unbound from ethics.

Why are you bringing ethnicity into this, that has nothing to do with anything. 😆 who says the Empire cared about ethnicity? Black people are humans too, so they can be anti-racist and still be humanocentric. Get off the hate, man.

It wasn't just humans that benefited from the Empire though, it was basically everyone unless they were apart of the violent rebellion or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The Imperial military was humanocentric mainly because the technology would be more easily factorized if it were to suit one species' biological needs. In fact, if Thrawn is any indication, most humanoids had a place in the Imperial Military. The military protected billions of alien species, and provided work and security for humanoids and alien engineers alike - pumping the galactic economy that no longer suffered from inequality of wealth and did appeal far more systems than did the Republic.

It was just better.

Of course you're going to make better progress when you're not concerned over the deathtoll.

What "death toll"? 😆, and no, you won't!

The Rebellion couldn't do shit but attack Imperials, most of the systems were anti-Rebellion because they did benefit from the Empire more so than they had with the Republic.

The Clone Wars had a huge death toll yes, but the inequality of wealth was a larger contributor to it than were the Sith, the Sith merely used this flawed system to their advantage - and made a better system.

The Empire fell into descent after Palpatine's death because Palpatine made the Imperial Chain of command untenable without an Emperor - and unable to implement a new Emperor as we've seen. If Vader had survived, Endor II wouldn't have hurt the Empire, and Vader would have tried something new, by not making more Death Stars and actually putting down the Rebellion with wartime based strategies.

If you were really concerned with actual death toll, than the Rebellion and the Republics were obviously the bad guys - the Clone Wars, no cohesion during the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion, etc.

As I said about the Force, it would not need to intervene if the galaxy could balance themselves out. That is what Empire tried to do - it wasn't perfect but it did a better job until the Rebellion took away its ability to function.

Originally posted by Oneness
A lot of people identify with the Empire, because not everyone is a fool who buys into GL's philosophy.

Lmoa. Question:

Do you "identify" with them destroying an entire planet and its inhabitants?

Originally posted by Oneness
As I said, fools throwing the galaxy into chaos. You associate with them cause Lucas says "sympathize with them", and you subjectively do so. The Rebellion ****ed up the galaxy, therefore, objectively, they're the bad guys.

For noble purposes. Some amount of chaos is always expected with Revolution, but that is a necessary evil to get rid of a much greater one. Palpatine and his cronies are the ones who truly are to blame for this chaos. They blew up Alderaan, Sidious mentally enslaved billions on Byss, Kasyyykk was bombed and the Wookiee's were enslaved as were many other sentients throughout Imperial space. They were monsters. Yeah, the Rebels created chaos, for good reasons. As opposed to greedy monsters like Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin throwing the galaxy into chaos purely for their own benefit. And, no I sympathise with them because they are combating a great evil in the form of the Empire and their goals and methods are righteous.

Yes, the galaxy suffered long term, but you only know about that through hindsight. The Rebels had no way of knowing about the Vong. They cannot be blamed for them.

Originally posted by Oneness
Along with the entire poverty stricken outer rim.

ohhhhh nooooooooo not POVERTY! being incompetent is sooooo much worse than being mass-murdering tyrants!

Originally posted by Oneness
That was started with Darth Tenebrous and finished with Sidious, and btw Dooku's resources, along with the Separatist leaders and all the broke ass Outer Rim territories made it possible. Now if only Americans could reproduce that feat and get some equality back.

Are you forgetting that the leaders of the CIS are some of the wealthiest beings in the galaxy? The Trade Federation? Dooku? The Techno Union? The Intergalactic Banking Union? The Commerce Guild? The Corporate Alliance? Noticing a pattern here? >;] The CIS is almost universally portrayed in the Clone Wars material to be made up of nothing more than a bunch of vile, backstabbing opportunists and darkside murderers. They didn't give a shit about the supposed poverty, which I'm sure you're exaggerating, they just wanted more money and power for themselves.

Plus as I recall as early as Darth Bane, the Sith were undermining the Republic.

Originally posted by Oneness
Which was greater than Empire's, yes.

no u ****ed up

Originally posted by Oneness
Yes, smart. It's called a police state, they forced the systems to get along through suppressing their ability to secede.

Cool story bro, everyone knows police states are ****ing kickin' rad and totally not basically awful in every respect. 👆

Originally posted by Oneness
Capitalist ho!
Originally posted by Oneness
Not the Empire, the Republic's inequality of wealth and the Jedi's blind obedience are responsible for that. The outer rim territories that brought that war suffered more heavily than the snug rich bastards in the core worlds.

I'm honestly confused here. Are you seriously arguing that the Empire decreasing poverty and raising the standards of living makes up for their countless crimes against humanity? Are you saying that they're better than people who blow up planets, enslave entire populaces and are literally cackling madmen?

Originally posted by Oneness
As you once said, "that's a good argument".

Han's quote was a joke. 😉

Originally posted by Oneness
We're talking about Lucas' story here.

Nope. You're bringing up things like the Vong, which are outside of Lucas' story. Don't try to pick and choose.

Originally posted by Oneness
It really was, you have increased productivity, better job market, higher living standards for everyone who didn't join the violent Rebellion against the Empire at the beck and call of fools without a plan to implement a better society.

Sure, which is why so many people were cheering after their defeat in RotJ, right? 😉

The Empire was awful. It was a horrible, despotic regime that committed countless atrocities. Theres a reason so many people rebelled and it wasn't because they were violent anarchists.

Originally posted by Oneness
Why are you bringing ethnicity into this, that has nothing to do with anything. 😆 who says the Empire cared about ethnicity? Black people are humans too, so they can be anti-racist and still be humanocentric. Get off the hate, man.

When was the last time you saw a black Imperial officer?

Originally posted by Oneness
It wasn't just humans that benefited from the Empire though, it was basically everyone unless they were apart of the violent rebellion or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

😬

Except for species like the Wookiees, who they mass-enslaved. You need to do some research:

"However, after the rise of the Empire, slavery was once again given a degree of legitimacy with the issuance of Imperial Decree A-SL-4557.607.232. Non-Humans and Human critics of the New Order alike were rounded up and enslaved en-masse for work on such projects as the Death Star. Agorffi, Wookiees, Yuzzem, and Talz were exploited for their strength while the Mon Calamari and the Givin were used for their famous ship-building skills. Also the Quarren, Chromans, Ugnaughts and Mustafarians were enslaved for their mining skills, the Gamorreans and Gungans were enslaved for military operations and the Kaminoans and Kallidahins for their cloning skills. Meanwhile, the Empire frequently ignored the trade of Twi'lek girls, who were enslaved for their beauty."

Yeah man, the Empire was so awesome. 🙄

Originally posted by Oneness
The Imperial military was humanocentric mainly because the technology would be more easily factorized if it were to suit one species' biological needs. In fact, if Thrawn is any indication, most humanoids had a place in the Imperial Military. The military protected billions of alien species, and provided work and security for humanoids and alien engineers alike - pumping the galactic economy that no longer suffered from inequality of wealth and did appeal far more systems than did the Republic.

It was just better.

Nope, it wasn't just the military. And Thrawn was the exception.

Originally posted by Oneness
What "death toll"? 😆, and no, you won't!

Um, the millions who died to create their awesome new tech? See above for just a taste.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Rebellion couldn't do shit but attack Imperials, most of the systems were anti-Rebellion because they did benefit from the Empire more so than they had with the Republic.

Wrong. Most of the systems were pro-Rebellion because Empire was just that ****ing awful. After the destruction of the Death Star the Rebellion hugely gained numbers because so many were horrified over the destruction of Alderaan.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Clone Wars had a huge death toll yes, but the inequality of wealth was a larger contributor to it than were the Sith, the Sith merely used this flawed system to their advantage - and made a better system.

Lmao. No, the Sith were a much more important reason. And as I said, most of the leaders of the Seps were greedy rich people.

Originally posted by Oneness
The Empire fell into descent after Palpatine's death because Palpatine made the Imperial Chain of command untenable without an Emperor - and unable to implement a new Emperor as we've seen. If Vader had survived, Endor II wouldn't have hurt the Empire, and Vader would have tried something new, by not making more Death Stars and actually putting down the Rebellion with wartime based strategies.

If you were really concerned with actual death toll, than the Rebellion and the Republics were obviously the bad guys - the Clone Wars, no cohesion during the Yuuzhan Vong Invasion, etc.

As I said about the Force, it would not need to intervene if the galaxy could balance themselves out. That is what Empire tried to do - it wasn't perfect but it did a better job until the Rebellion took away its ability to function.

Actually, IIRC the construction of both Death Stars tanked the economy. And tons of people would have rebelled after two such defeats, as they did, with or without Vader's death. Vader lacked the authority and will to be Palpatines successor anyway.

How the hell are the Rebellion to blame for the Clone Wars? Thats almost entirely the fault of the Sith, the greedy CIS leaders and partially the Republic. What, is Bail Organa to blame for any of that? Mon Mothma? This is ridiculous.

Lolwut. You really are nuts. The Force intervened because of the Sith, not the imbalance in freaking social disparity. Wtf are you smoking? Also the idea of balance in a system of rampant inequality is lulzy.

Why were the people cheering?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Let’s start from the beginning: what is the relationship between the Empire and the Ewoks before the movie begins? I submit that the internal evidence of the film makes it clear that they were peacefully coexisting. Several elements contribute to this conclusion, which is admittedly based on limited data, but which seems entirely uncontradicted by any available evidence:

1. When the rebels encounter the Imperial scouts on their speeders, the Imperials appear to be conducting routine patrols in the territory around their base. The guys on the ground seem to be about to eat lunch, while another group sits casually on their speeder bikes some distance away. This is not how soldiers on patrol in a combat area act; obviously they don’t expect any trouble from the locals.

2. The effectiveness of the Ewoks in battle against the Imperial troops, despite their inferior technology, clearly indicates that the Imperials have not battled Ewoks before. If they had, they would have developed tactics and doctrines suited to warfare against the indigenes. (I suggest orbital bombardment.) Instead, their deployments and approaches are clearly oriented around repelling a high-tech assault from orbit, rather than dealing with a native insurgency against their occupation.

3. The Ewoks, a hunter-gatherer society, appear to have no dislocations in their lifestyle. Their town, although only a short distance from a major Imperial facility, is apparently permanent, well-settled, and prosperous – numerous healthy young are in the community and Ewoks of all ages appear to be well-fed and happy. There is no sign of malnutrition or indications that the Ewoks have been displaced by the Imperial presence.

4. The Ewoks are unsurprised, and do not become hostile, when they encounter humans and a Wookie. Their reaction to other hominids is entirely contextual. When Leia is found helpless by one of the Ewoks, he pities her plight and gives her aid; he does take her “prisoner” but it is clear that she is well treated. When Luke etc. are caught in an Ewok trap, they are treated as food. This clearly indicates that the Ewoks are judging each visitor to their territory on their own merits and on the basis of the immediate context, and not assuming a hostile status with “those evil humans”. Otherwise they would have killed Leia immediately, having seen that she was connected with the speeder-riding Imperials. All of this leads to the conclusion that the Ewoks have met and dealt with Imperial humans before, and don’t bear them any particular malice or friendship.

So, it is clear that the Empire decided to use this moon for its strategic location, and took no hostile action against the native population of the world. They aren’t hunting Ewoks for food, they aren’t enslaving them for labor. I assume that the Empire took some Ewok land to build their base, but it doesn’t seem to have negatively impacted them. (Perhaps they paid the Ewoks a fair price for the land.) The Empire didn’t start colonizing the obviously lush and productive world or stripping it of its resources. They just built their base and proceeded with their legitimate military business. They defended their base against Rebel attack, but did little or nothing to forestall military activity by the natives, indicating that they did not expect such activity.

What happens when the Rebels enter this picture of interspecies cooperation and harmony?

The first encounter is when Leia meets an Ewok hunter and is taken back to their home. Her actions appear friendly – although her attitude is somewhat contemptuous of the natives’ intelligence – but we don’t really know her intentions. Perhaps she didn’t mean to be an infiltrator and a spy on the native people. We just don’t know.

The next thing that happens is that Luke, Han, Chewie and the droids are captured by an Ewok hunting party when they stumble into a trap. The Ewoks believe that C3P0 is some kind of divine being to be honored (though not particularly to be obeyed or feared), and decide to turn the bounty of their hunt into a feast for their god.

When C3P0 and Leia’s remonstrations are ineffective, Luke uses his Jedi power to trick the Ewoks into believing that C3P0 really is a god and really does have divine powers. The immediate motivation for this action – avoiding becoming lunch – is morally acceptable. However, the party does not stop with saving their own lives and proceeding with their own mission. Instead, they use C3P0′s divine status to turn the Ewoks into their own private army. They demand food and equipment, guides, and the return of their own equipment, legitimately seized by the Ewoks when the Rebels trespassed on their territory.

What’s worse, they enlist the Ewoks into their own futile rebellion against the legitimate authority. They take a largely helpless indigenous people who, by virtue of the humanity and decency of the local Imperial power, enjoy peaceful relations with the legitimate government, and turn them into doomed rebels. They convince them to mount a surprise attack against an overwhelmingly superior force, and the resulting battle results in the deaths of dozens of Ewok warriors – in exchange for a marginal shift in the tactical situation for the rebels.

In my world, there is a word for people who use trickery and deception to convince simple primitives of their own divinity, and then use that divine status to turn peaceful hunters into jihadists against a vastly superior foreign power that has never harmed them.

That word is “evil”.

Other authors, David Brin foremost among them, have written pieces speculating about the odd moral universe that Mr. Lucas has created. I find myself in agreement with Brin’s conclusions, if not with his excessively egalitarian reasons for preferring the Imperial cause.

The actions of the Rebel characters in Episodes IV through VI, and the actions of the Jedi and/or Republican loyalists in Episodes I through III, add, rather than subtracting, to the weight of this conclusion. There are a number of extremely troubling actions or scenarios that buttress the belief that, while the Empire certainly has its flaws and demons, the Rebels are significantly worse.

The major question that Lucas always seems to avoid: “and then what happens?”

Again, the Ewoks are illustrative. OK, the Rebels win (at great cost to the Ewoks, and little cost to themslves) and the Empire is defeated, for the moment. Then what happens? Are the Rebels going to leave C3P0 with his new followers? Certainly not – he’s still useful. The Ewoks will just have to find a new god. Sorry about wiping out half of your warriors and leaving you vulnerable to the next hostile bit of megafauna wandering around the forests of Endor – oh, and sorry about destroying your culture’s beliefs about the Deity as part of the plan to cynically exploit, use, and then discard your people – bye, now. We’re off to the big victory party on Coruscant.

Rebellion? What rebellion?

There does not appear to be any popular support for the Rebellion.

This seems a rather bald-faced assertion to make, but my review of the films seems to lend considerable support to the idea. There are a handful of rebels in Episode IV – from the visual evidence of the triumphal scene, a couple of thousand at most. They have built a base from which their ancient and decrepit starfighters apparently raid legitimate commerce to support themselves. A few thousand rebels and a handful of ships, out of a Republic of thousands upon thousands of worlds?

Despite their major victory over the Empire, there does not seem to be any particularly large flocking to the rebel banner in Episode V. Again, we have a handful of rebels building a base in an out-of-the-way place, hoping to avoid detection by law enforcement. The behavior is much more typical of a criminal syndicate than that of a rebel movement that allegedly represents the true feelings of the populace of the Galaxy. With FTL communication and hyperdrive, why have a central base? Why not hide individual ships among the bulk of the citizens on all of these thousands of worlds – swimming in the human and alien sea of bodies? Clearly, because there aren’t any reliably Rebel population pools to hide within. The isolated frontier is the only place where the Rebels are safe from the people who will turn them in to the lawful authority.

Originally posted by Oneness
Why were the people cheering?

That doesn't make sense to me.

They were cheering because they were happy that the Empire had been defeated.

Originally posted by Oneness
Let’s start from the beginning: what is the relationship between the Empire and the Ewoks before the movie begins? I submit that the internal evidence of the film makes it clear that they were peacefully coexisting. Several elements contribute to this conclusion, which is admittedly based on limited data, but which seems entirely uncontradicted by any available evidence:

1. When the rebels encounter the Imperial scouts on their speeders, the Imperials appear to be conducting routine patrols in the territory around their base. The guys on the ground seem to be about to eat lunch, while another group sits casually on their speeder bikes some distance away. This is not how soldiers on patrol in a combat area act; obviously they don’t expect any trouble from the locals.

2. The effectiveness of the Ewoks in battle against the Imperial troops, despite their inferior technology, clearly indicates that the Imperials have not battled Ewoks before. If they had, they would have developed tactics and doctrines suited to warfare against the indigenes. (I suggest orbital bombardment.) Instead, their deployments and approaches are clearly oriented around repelling a high-tech assault from orbit, rather than dealing with a native insurgency against their occupation.

3. The Ewoks, a hunter-gatherer society, appear to have no dislocations in their lifestyle. Their town, although only a short distance from a major Imperial facility, is apparently permanent, well-settled, and prosperous – numerous healthy young are in the community and Ewoks of all ages appear to be well-fed and happy. There is no sign of malnutrition or indications that the Ewoks have been displaced by the Imperial presence.

4. The Ewoks are unsurprised, and do not become hostile, when they encounter humans and a Wookie. Their reaction to other hominids is entirely contextual. When Leia is found helpless by one of the Ewoks, he pities her plight and gives her aid; he does take her “prisoner” but it is clear that she is well treated. When Luke etc. are caught in an Ewok trap, they are treated as food. This clearly indicates that the Ewoks are judging each visitor to their territory on their own merits and on the basis of the immediate context, and not assuming a hostile status with “those evil humans”. Otherwise they would have killed Leia immediately, having seen that she was connected with the speeder-riding Imperials. All of this leads to the conclusion that the Ewoks have met and dealt with Imperial humans before, and don’t bear them any particular malice or friendship.

So, it is clear that the Empire decided to use this moon for its strategic location, and took no hostile action against the native population of the world. They aren’t hunting Ewoks for food, they aren’t enslaving them for labor. I assume that the Empire took some Ewok land to build their base, but it doesn’t seem to have negatively impacted them. (Perhaps they paid the Ewoks a fair price for the land.) The Empire didn’t start colonizing the obviously lush and productive world or stripping it of its resources. They just built their base and proceeded with their legitimate military business. They defended their base against Rebel attack, but did little or nothing to forestall military activity by the natives, indicating that they did not expect such activity.

What happens when the Rebels enter this picture of interspecies cooperation and harmony?

The first encounter is when Leia meets an Ewok hunter and is taken back to their home. Her actions appear friendly – although her attitude is somewhat contemptuous of the natives’ intelligence – but we don’t really know her intentions. Perhaps she didn’t mean to be an infiltrator and a spy on the native people. We just don’t know.

The next thing that happens is that Luke, Han, Chewie and the droids are captured by an Ewok hunting party when they stumble into a trap. The Ewoks believe that C3P0 is some kind of divine being to be honored (though not particularly to be obeyed or feared), and decide to turn the bounty of their hunt into a feast for their god.

When C3P0 and Leia’s remonstrations are ineffective, Luke uses his Jedi power to trick the Ewoks into believing that C3P0 really is a god and really does have divine powers. The immediate motivation for this action – avoiding becoming lunch – is morally acceptable. However, the party does not stop with saving their own lives and proceeding with their own mission. Instead, they use C3P0′s divine status to turn the Ewoks into their own private army. They demand food and equipment, guides, and the return of their own equipment, legitimately seized by the Ewoks when the Rebels trespassed on their territory.

What’s worse, they enlist the Ewoks into their own futile rebellion against the legitimate authority. They take a largely helpless indigenous people who, by virtue of the humanity and decency of the local Imperial power, enjoy peaceful relations with the legitimate government, and turn them into doomed rebels. They convince them to mount a surprise attack against an overwhelmingly superior force, and the resulting battle results in the deaths of dozens of Ewok warriors – in exchange for a marginal shift in the tactical situation for the rebels.

In my world, there is a word for people who use trickery and deception to convince simple primitives of their own divinity, and then use that divine status to turn peaceful hunters into jihadists against a vastly superior foreign power that has never harmed them.

That word is “evil”.

Other authors, David Brin foremost among them, have written pieces speculating about the odd moral universe that Mr. Lucas has created. I find myself in agreement with Brin’s conclusions, if not with his excessively egalitarian reasons for preferring the Imperial cause.

The actions of the Rebel characters in Episodes IV through VI, and the actions of the Jedi and/or Republican loyalists in Episodes I through III, add, rather than subtracting, to the weight of this conclusion. There are a number of extremely troubling actions or scenarios that buttress the belief that, while the Empire certainly has its flaws and demons, the Rebels are significantly worse.

The major question that Lucas always seems to avoid: “and then what happens?”

Again, the Ewoks are illustrative. OK, the Rebels win (at great cost to the Ewoks, and little cost to themslves) and the Empire is defeated, for the moment. Then what happens? Are the Rebels going to leave C3P0 with his new followers? Certainly not – he’s still useful. The Ewoks will just have to find a new god. Sorry about wiping out half of your warriors and leaving you vulnerable to the next hostile bit of megafauna wandering around the forests of Endor – oh, and sorry about destroying your culture’s beliefs about the Deity as part of the plan to cynically exploit, use, and then discard your people – bye, now. We’re off to the big victory party on Coruscant.

Rebellion? What rebellion?

There does not appear to be any popular support for the Rebellion.

This seems a rather bald-faced assertion to make, but my review of the films seems to lend considerable support to the idea. There are a handful of rebels in Episode IV – from the visual evidence of the triumphal scene, a couple of thousand at most. They have built a base from which their ancient and decrepit starfighters apparently raid legitimate commerce to support themselves. A few thousand rebels and a handful of ships, out of a Republic of thousands upon thousands of worlds?

Despite their major victory over the Empire, there does not seem to be any particularly large flocking to the rebel banner in Episode V. Again, we have a handful of rebels building a base in an out-of-the-way place, hoping to avoid detection by law enforcement. The behavior is much more typical of a criminal syndicate than that of a rebel movement that allegedly represents the true feelings of the populace of the Galaxy. With FTL communication and hyperdrive, why have a central base? Why not hide individual ships among the bulk of the citizens on all of these thousands of worlds – swimming in the human and alien sea of bodies? Clearly, because there aren’t any reliably Rebel population pools to hide within. The isolated frontier is the only place where the Rebels are safe from the people who will turn them in to the lawful authority.

I'm sorry, what?

Originally posted by Nephthys
They were cheering because they were happy that the Empire had been defeated.

I'm sorry, what?

Read my argument for the Empire ya scarcity-promoting, masochistic capitalist.

That last argument was pertaining to the fact that the Rebellion didn't have a lot of supporters, and that the Rebels will literally let half of a culture be whiped out by Imperial Forces to win a victory. They are nothing but Jihad Rebels, crazy extremists.

I mean, on screen, we've seen the Empire wipe out the Jedi, destroy entire worlds, enslave peaceful peoples, and declare that their ultimate aim is perpetual rule through fear of force alone. Indeed, the Empire is so evil that it actively rewards cruelty: Grand Moff Tarkin — the commanding officer of the first Death Star — was awarded his title after slaughtering hundreds of anti-Imperial protesters in cold blood.

All of that said, I’m not so certain that the operating philosophy behind the Galactic Empire — that despotism is necessary to maintaining the peaceful cohesion of a galaxy-spanning empire –is entirely wrong.

Especially since we have enough examples of republican forms of galactic government to know that the alternative isn't that much better. The previous galaxy-spanning political unit – the Galactic Republic — collapsed largely because it was too large to be effective.

The Republic didn't even possess the strength or legitimacy to handle a trade dispute on a minor core world, much less an existential threat like the Clone Wars. On the other end of the timeline is the successor regime to the Rebel Alliance, the New Republic.

The New Republic was, like its namesake, a loose confederation of worlds united by common economic ties and a representative body. It maintained a large military, for the purpose of defense and peacekeeping, and was firmly committed to respecting the rights of sentient beings. It was also a complete failure.

For the full 23 years of its existence, the New Republic was beset by division and problems of legitimacy. Consensus was habitually hard to come by, even in times — like the Thrawn crisis — when it was absolutely necessary. Indeed, the New Republic fell precisely because it couldn't muster the cohesion or will to defend itself against the extra-galactic Yuuzhan Vong, despite possessing the combined resources of an entire galaxy.

Now, to me at least, this suggests that a single galactic, representative governing body — no matter how well intentioned — is simply incapable of dealing with such an overwhelming diversity of cultures, viewpoints and agendas (remember, we’re talking about trillions of people and tens of thousands of different lifeforms).

If you’re committed to something vaguely democratic, the only real option is a galactic confederation — not dissimilar to the Federation in the Star Trek continuity — where each member planet or sector has extremely limited ties to a central “governing” body of limited authority. Of course, there are real threats from within and outside the galaxy, and there is a real need for a centralized authority, if only for collective defense.

In which case, it seems that the only way you could have effective collective defense is by forcing each member planet to provide for a common army and navy, which requires enough force for coercion, which in this context can only be successful if the regime has little respect for rights: i.e. the Empire.

Palpatine was incredibly brutal and evil, but he also understood — correctly — that successful galactic dominion requires the kind of cruelty and brute force that we see on display in the movies. Otherwise the whole thing will collapse into petty-infighting and jealousy.

Sure, the Empire are the bad guys. 🙄

Okay, now that I can look back to more info on this page as I break up and retort your stupid, misguided quote:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Palpatine and his cronies are the ones who truly are to blame for this chaos. They blew up Alderaan, Sidious mentally enslaved billions on Byss, Kasyyykk was bombed and the Wookiee's were enslaved as were many other sentients throughout Imperial space. They were monsters.

They are the lesser of two evils.

The Empire needed to do that to maintain peaceful cohesion and cooperation throughout a galaxy-spanning society.

"The Republic didn't even possess the strength or legitimacy to handle a trade dispute on a minor core world, much less an existential threat like the Clone Wars. On the other end of the timeline is the successor regime to the Rebel Alliance, the New Republic.

The New Republic was, like its namesake, a loose confederation of worlds united by common economic ties and a representative body. It maintained a large military, for the purpose of defense and peacekeeping, and was firmly committed to respecting the rights of sentient beings. It was also a complete failure.

For the full 23 years of its existence, the New Republic was beset by division and problems of legitimacy. Consensus was habitually hard to come by, even in times, like the Thrawn crisis, when it was absolutely necessary. Indeed, the New Republic fell precisely because it couldn't muster the cohesion or will to defend itself against the extra-galactic Yuuzhan Vong, despite possessing the combined resources of an entire galaxy.

Now, to me at least, this suggests that a single galactic, representative governing body, no matter how well intentioned, is simply incapable of dealing with such an overwhelming diversity of cultures, viewpoints and agendas (remember, we're talking about trillions of people and tens of thousands of different lifeforms).

If you're committed to something vaguely democratic, the only real option is a galactic confederation, not dissimilar to the Federation in the Star Trek continuity, where each member planet or sector has extremely limited ties to a central "governing" body of limited authority. Of course, there are real threats from within and outside the galaxy, and there is a real need for a centralized authority, if only for collective defense.

In which case, it seems that the only way you could have effective collective defense is by forcing each member planet to provide for a common army and navy, which requires enough force for coercion, which in this context can only be successful if the regime has little respect for rights: i.e. the Empire.

Palpatine was incredibly brutal and evil, but he also understood, correctly, that successful galactic dominion requires the kind of cruelty and brute force that we see on display in the movies. Otherwise the whole thing will collapse into petty-infighting and jealousy."

Yes, the galaxy suffered long term, but you only know about that through hindsight. The Rebels had no way of knowing about the Vong. They cannot be blamed for them.

Their rebellion reestablished the broken system that created a far more profound lack of cohesion, systems breaking apart now that they can, by the time the Vong arrive no one can amass a force great enough to challenge. It should be common sense, even with the Clones provided for the Republic the seceding star systems were able to amass a force great enough to challenge the Republic, they didn't think things would be worse? Especially without a Clone army? No cohesion.

Again, carelessly rushing to take something they no nothing about down - apathetic toward most of the systems, unconcerned about considering the consequences or looking back, well guess, history repeats itself.

ohhhhh nooooooooo not POVERTY! being incompetent is sooooo much worse than being mass-murdering tyrants!

Well, that is why the majority of the systems sympathized with the the Empire.

Are you forgetting that the leaders of the CIS are some of the wealthiest beings in the galaxy? The Trade Federation? Dooku? The Techno Union? The Intergalactic Banking Union? The Commerce Guild? The Corporate Alliance? Noticing a pattern here? >;] The CIS is almost universally portrayed in the Clone Wars material to be made up of nothing more than a bunch of vile, backstabbing opportunists and darkside murderers. They didn't give a shit about the supposed poverty, which I'm sure you're exaggerating, they just wanted more money and power for themselves.

Your listing the upper-class Separatists who could afford to be in the core worlds. When they challenged the Republic, destitute systems flocked to their cause, sheltered them throughout the outer rim territories, the Jedi and the Clones had to carry out a 3 year siege to get through all the systems backing them up.

I'm honestly confused here. Are you seriously arguing that the Empire decreasing poverty and raising the standards of living makes up for their countless crimes against humanity? Are you saying that they're better than people who blow up planets, enslave entire populaces and are literally cackling madmen?

YES, and right now you suck at arguing against that plight.

Sure, which is why so many people were cheering after their defeat in RotJ, right? 😉

The Empire was awful. It was a horrible, despotic regime that committed countless atrocities. Theres a reason so many people rebelled and it wasn't because they were violent anarchists.

OK, the Rebels win (at great cost to the Ewoks, and little cost to themslves) and the Empire is defeated, for the moment. Then what happens? Are the Rebels going to leave C3P0 with his new followers? Certainly not – he’s still useful. The Ewoks will just have to find a new god. Sorry about wiping out half of your warriors and leaving you vulnerable to the next hostile bit of megafauna wandering around the forests of Endor – oh, and sorry about destroying your culture’s beliefs about the Deity as part of the plan to cynically exploit, use, and then discard your people – bye, now. We’re off to the big victory party on Coruscant.

Rebellion? What rebellion?

There does not appear to be any popular support for the Rebellion.

This seems a rather bald-faced assertion to make, but my review of the films seems to lend considerable support to the idea. There are a handful of rebels in Episode IV – from the visual evidence of the triumphal scene, a couple of thousand at most. They have built a base from which their ancient and decrepit starfighters apparently raid legitimate commerce to support themselves. A few thousand rebels and a handful of ships, out of a Republic of thousands upon thousands of worlds?

Despite their major victory over the Empire, there does not seem to be any particularly large flocking to the rebel banner in Episode V. Again, we have a handful of rebels building a base in an out-of-the-way place, hoping to avoid detection by law enforcement. The behavior is much more typical of a criminal syndicate than that of a rebel movement that allegedly represents the true feelings of the populace of the Galaxy. With FTL communication and hyperdrive, why have a central base? Why not hide individual ships among the bulk of the citizens on all of these thousands of worlds – swimming in the human and alien sea of bodies? Clearly, because there aren’t any reliably Rebel population pools to hide within. The isolated frontier is the only place where the Rebels are safe from the people who will turn them in to the lawful authority.

When was the last time you saw a black Imperial officer?
I saw tons in TOR.

Oh, so they enslaved black people. Do you have any evidence behind that opinion??

Take your bullshit somewhere else.

Except for species like the Wookiees, who they mass-enslaved. You need to do some research:

"However, after the rise of the Empire, slavery was once again given a degree of legitimacy with the issuance of Imperial Decree A-SL-4557.607.232. Non-Humans and Human critics of the New Order alike were rounded up and enslaved en-masse for work on such projects as the Death Star. Agorffi, Wookiees, Yuzzem, and Talz were exploited for their strength while the Mon Calamari and the Givin were used for their famous ship-building skills. Also the Quarren, Chromans, Ugnaughts and Mustafarians were enslaved for their mining skills, the Gamorreans and Gungans were enslaved for military operations and the Kaminoans and Kallidahins for their cloning skills. Meanwhile, the Empire frequently ignored the trade of Twi'lek girls, who were enslaved for their beauty."

You're grasping for straws, you're naming a small groups of a populace, not every species in the galaxy, more like a fraction of a percent (save the Wookies) that were enslaved for the construction of the 1st Death Star.

Yeah man, the Empire was so awesome. 🙄

Okay, let me explain something, when the Empire pumps money into the economy by increasing productivity and work to be done, everyone gets more money. When the galaxy has more money overall, the neighborhoods become nicer, more people can meet their needs, more families can have happy lives. Comprehend?

Um, the millions who died to create their awesome new tech? See above for just a taste.

In contrast to the trillions of lives lost in the Clone Wars? Lmfao get real. YES!!

Wrong. Most of the systems were pro-Rebellion because Empire was just that ****ing awful. After the destruction of the Death Star the Rebellion hugely gained numbers because so many were horrified over the destruction of Alderaan.

Yet you have no evidence to back this up.

Lmao. No, the Sith were a much more important reason. And as I said, most of the leaders of the Seps were greedy rich people.

Yet they made up a small portion of the greedy rich people of the core worlds.

Actually, IIRC the construction of both Death Stars tanked the economy.

You don't recall correctly.

And tons of people would have rebelled after two such defeats, as they did, with or without Vader's death.

Where was this stated?

How the hell are the Rebellion to blame for the Clone Wars?

The first Republic was to blame for the Clone Wars. The Rebellion and the New Republic was to blame for how many the Vong were able to kill when they invaded. The most powerful Military in the Mythos (Galactic Empire) would have trashed them in weeks.

Thats almost entirely the fault of the Sith, the greedy CIS leaders

Who were sheltered and successful because the Republic literally caused the lack of cohesion and secession of systems that the Rebellion couldn't even compete with when the Empire reigned.

Lolwut. You really are nuts. The Force intervened because of the Sith, not the imbalance in freaking social disparity. Wtf are you smoking?

Like Obi-wan said, the Force also obeys the commands. The entire galaxy had a symbiotic relationship with the Force, midi-chlorians were in all life forms. The collective suffering would call into action the Force. Which was why the Jedi were losing their ability to use the Force, why Palpatine was born evil, why the Sith prevailed.

Also the idea of balance in a system of rampant inequality is lulzy.

That's why the Force was out of balance.

Originally posted by Oneness
Read my argument for the Empire ya scarcity-promoting, masochistic capitalist.

Honestly I'm not really that interested in politics. The peak of my investment in that area would be NCR vs Legion, lol.

Originally posted by Oneness
That last argument was pertaining to the fact that the Rebellion didn't have a lot of supporters, and that the Rebels will literally let half of a culture be whiped out by Imperial Forces to win a victory. They are nothing but Jihad Rebels, crazy extremists.

A) The Rebels had thousands of systems join them after ANH. They had enough forces to defeat the Empire and take over as the New Republic. The fact that we see people even on Coruscant celebrating their victory should tell you how wide-spread support for them was.

B) You're blowing the Ewok thing up way overboard, lol. Considering the stakes on the Battle of Yavin (as well as the fact that the Ewoks nearly ate them), Luke and co were well justified in tricking them. And that thing about C3P0 was retarded. Theres no evidence they 'destroyed their culture' or whatever the ****.

Originally posted by Oneness
I mean, on screen, we've seen the Empire wipe out the Jedi, destroy entire worlds, enslave peaceful peoples, and declare that their ultimate aim is perpetual rule through fear of force alone. Indeed, the Empire is so evil that it actively rewards cruelty: Grand Moff Tarkin — the commanding officer of the first Death Star — was awarded his title after slaughtering hundreds of anti-Imperial protesters in cold blood.

I don't see why this post needed to go beyond this.

Originally posted by Oneness
All of that said, I’m not so certain that the operating philosophy behind the Galactic Empire — that despotism is necessary to maintaining the peaceful cohesion of a galaxy-spanning empire –is entirely wrong.

I'll take an inefficient democracy over an efficient dictatorship that blows up ****ing planets any day, personally. 😬

Also, you're wrong about that being needed.

Originally posted by Oneness
The New Republic was, like its namesake, a loose confederation of worlds united by common economic ties and a representative body. It maintained a large military, for the purpose of defense and peacekeeping, and was firmly committed to respecting the rights of sentient beings. It was also a complete failure.

For the full 23 years of its existence, the New Republic was beset by division and problems of legitimacy. Consensus was habitually hard to come by, even in times — like the Thrawn crisis — when it was absolutely necessary. Indeed, the New Republic fell precisely because it couldn't muster the cohesion or will to defend itself against the extra-galactic Yuuzhan Vong, despite possessing the combined resources of an entire galaxy.

Um, you're aware that the Republic and Jedi beat the Vong, right?

Originally posted by Oneness
Now, to me at least, this suggests that a single galactic, representative governing body — no matter how well intentioned — is simply incapable of dealing with such an overwhelming diversity of cultures, viewpoints and agendas (remember, we’re talking about trillions of people and tens of thousands of different lifeforms).

If you’re committed to something vaguely democratic, the only real option is a galactic confederation — not dissimilar to the Federation in the Star Trek continuity — where each member planet or sector has extremely limited ties to a central “governing” body of limited authority. Of course, there are real threats from within and outside the galaxy, and there is a real need for a centralized authority, if only for collective defense.

In which case, it seems that the only way you could have effective collective defense is by forcing each member planet to provide for a common army and navy, which requires enough force for coercion, which in this context can only be successful if the regime has little respect for rights: i.e. the Empire.

Palpatine was incredibly brutal and evil, but he also understood — correctly — that successful galactic dominion requires the kind of cruelty and brute force that we see on display in the movies. Otherwise the whole thing will collapse into petty-infighting and jealousy.

Um.... you mean other than the 25,000 years the Republic successfully held firm, right?

Originally posted by Oneness
Sure, the Empire are the bad guys. 🙄

Yes, they are. They really, really are.

Originally posted by Oneness
YES, and right now you suck at arguing against that plight.

Wow.

/end discussion

Originally posted by Nephthys
Honestly I'm not really that interested in politics. The peak of my investment in that area would be NCR vs Legion, lol.

Politics. Let me tell something, I don't really have any interest in politics either. I have interest in trasnhumanism because I'm one of...probably the only person who understands that humans have the resources to rise above the current scarcity-based system, but biologically can't.

A) The Rebels had thousands of systems join them after ANH.

Then why couldn't they hide behind in systems? Why did they have to go to uncharted systems, why did they only have central base.

The Separatists during the Clone Wars didn't have a central base, and had plenty of systems sheltering them.

They had enough forces to defeat the Empire and take over as the New Republic.

That doesn't mean they had as much support as the Empire, it means they managed to cut off the head and remove the Empire's military coercion.

The fact that we see people even on Coruscant celebrating their victory should tell you how wide-spread support for them was.

Not really, we don't know how many were not celebrating, or if the people celebrating understood the full implications of the Rebel Victory.

B) You're blowing the Ewok thing up way overboard, lol. Considering the stakes

Removing the necessary destitution to keep the galaxy safe and economically thriving? Mhm.

on the Battle of Yavin (as well as the fact that the Ewoks nearly ate them), Luke and co were well justified in tricking them.

Only to get back their resources and get out, not to exploit their resources or use them for war - or tell stories about the "Evil" Empire being religiously offensive to their impersonated "God".

And that thing about C3P0 was retarded. Theres no evidence they 'destroyed their culture' or whatever the ****.

You mean causing mass death and destruction upon there people is completely justifiable?

I'll take an inefficient democracy over an efficient dictatorship that blows up ****ing planets any day, personally. 😬

So you'd take over 100 trillion deaths over a few million? K.

Also, you're wrong about that being needed.

Then why did the Clone Wars succeed in destroying trillions of sentient lives?

Um, you're aware that the Republic and Jedi [b]beat the Vong, right? [/b]

Only after hundreds of trillions of lives were lost, actually far more than the clone wars.

Um.... you mean other than the 25,000 years the Republic successfully held firm, right?

Seeing a cascade of conflicts that were all of them worse than the reign of the Galactic Empire, yes.

Yes, they are. They really, really are.

The Empire isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than the Republic.