On Free Will

Originally posted by Oneness
They're ignorant, they lie to themselves, they hide information from their students.

They are equals to the Sith in their deeds, you can righteously do something that's complete different than torturing an innocent puppy, that has far worse repercussions galaxy-wide; the Jedi did this by stealing Anakin from his mother, yet they always get the moral upper-hand and win...

But as for the Force itself, it is neither good or bad, it guides a being to carry out his or her will successfully. It's basically a way to manipulate reality.

Equal to the sith? There's a difference between the occasional thing having unintended consequences due to short-sightedness and overt regular maliciousness. Even the hidebound and somewhat foolish Jedi of the time were a net plus, and at other times the Jedi have been a much bigger plus than them.

Q99 has a point. Oneness, you appear to be injecting your own venom into your interpretations of the Jedi's motives and that makes your own POV concerning.

Originally posted by Q99
Equal to the sith? There's a difference between the occasional thing having unintended consequences due to short-sightedness and overt regular maliciousness. Even the hidebound and somewhat foolish Jedi of the time were a net plus, and at other times the Jedi have been a much bigger plus than them.

The Prophets of Rhand said it best when they proclaimed that Palpatine's failure was that, after he succeeded in destroying the Jedi and the Republic, was that he tried to create - potentially his '10,000 year reign' (most likely as a body hopper between Force sensitives) would have seen him ruling over more and more systems - but as a Roman Emperor archetype.

What the success of this violent rebellion and the creation of the New Jedi Order really did, was allow for the Yuuzhan Vong to invade. This invasion resulted in a death toll far more massive than of the Clone Wars that caused far more damage to independent systems than the Jedi's outer rim siege (which was also quite destructive in its own right).

After the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, there were a series of crises included in the events of the Dark Nest trilogy and the FoTJ series - then a 130 year period peace - then another Sith Imperial War far faaaaar worse than anything before it that was resolved the the Galactic Alliance of Independent Systems, which is questionably still less capable of maintaining the level of peace that Sidious' Empire would have in that now the Sith are free to fester in secret like in between the events of the Darth Bane Trilogy and TPM. Now the Sith are in greater number, still hard to discover - and can amass a military force far more easily among this nigh-anarchically galactic community; especially since the galaxy is now more divided than ever!

The Jedi and the Sith allow the destructive wars of Star Wars to perpetuate increasingly. They are both equally responsible for getting in the way of peace and little the normal, non-super beings who can't use the Force to govern themselves.

The Force strives for balance and possibly peace; this is representative of its will. This balance can be disturbed when Force-users try to bend the Force to their will for their personal gains, resulting in conflicts and violence.

Those who let the Force guide their actions, represent the light side of the Force. These Force-users automatically accept the will of the Force and ensure its balance and resultant peace.

Those who use the Force for personal gains, represent the dark side of the Force. These Force-users have the tendency to reject the will of the Force and disturb its balance due to nature of their actions.

The Force does not prevents its users from using it for their personal gains but it still wants them to follow its will and retaliates by creating circumstances that prevent its misuse.

The entire concept of balance is that Force should not be bend against its will because its misuse will result in elimination of peace and promotion of violence. At-least this is what I have understood.

Most Force-users are born neutral (they are neither light and nor dark at birth). Their can be exceptions though such as Vitiate, he was dark since birth.

So the question to ask also might be: does the Force manifest agents just of balance or does it also manifest agents of change? Beings like Vitiate, Sidious, and Bane are Dark Side agents pretty much from birth, while beings like Yoda, Luke and even Obi-Wan seem to be paragons of Light. Might the Force be schitzophrenic, or is it the users that create these anomalies?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Might the Force be schitzophrenic, or is it the users that create these anomalies?

It's the users' collective commands that create the chaos - the Force only obeys commands, and guides their commander in the best way possible to fulfill them.

Like in real life transhumanism and a shared telepathic link, and VR are, theoretically, the only way to go before we can move on; in Star Wars the only way for higher order is to become Celestials, engineering a dimension in order to collectively shape their own - structured - reality.

I view the Force not as a sentient being like God but more like a force of nature. As such, the "will of the force" isn't actually some God-like being's will but rather nature balancing itself out to an equilibrium. Ultimately then, I don't think the force "manifests" agents of change or balance. They just happen naturally.

As for free-will, I view it in a similar way to psmith. That, while we don't technically have true free-will, we have the illusion of free-will or choice. It's the exact same way I view the real world. While we still get to choose the actions we will take what we choose is entirely based on our genes and past experiences.

Originally posted by ares834
what we choose is entirely based on our genes and past experiences.

The fact is, we can change our environment as well, which in turn changes us. Only difference is, this environment that is nature that is the Force, cannot choose how to restructure us, it just does it. Its a one way process, the thing that thinks is the thing that shapes.

We're the architects, not nature, not the Force - we are nature thinking about itself, we are a way for the Force to think.

Yes... And? Not sure how that contradicts my view at all.

Originally posted by ares834
I view the Force not as a sentient being like God but more like a force of nature. As such, the "will of the force" isn't actually some God-like being's will but rather nature balancing itself out to an equilibrium. Ultimately then, I don't think the force "manifests" agents of change or balance. They just happen naturally.

So in this case, Force titans born naturally or seemingly randomly shape their eras rather than the eras necessitating their appearance?

For example, Adas is a bonafide Sith mutant of immense power and vastly different size and shape of his peers and somehow drove off the Infinite Empire to the point where Korriban remained free from their influence. Nihilus formed from the chaos of Malachor V as a wound in the Force, and sought to absorb this energy across the cosmos like some kind of living black hole. The Exile, Meetra, was similar enough in function to be immune and stop him. The Sith Emperor, Vitiate, is likewise a strange-born child of immense Force power who gains status and mastery quickly and begins anew a threat to the Republic rivaling or perhaps exceeding that of the Great Hyperspace War, being behind both the Mandalorian invasions, the Jedi Civil War, and the sacking of Coruscant and the Jedi Temple.

Anakin Skywalker is a being born seemingly of the Force with immense potential and is naturally gifted in the Force, and it is his powers and will that seem to shift the balance of the galaxy from good to bad and then back again. Luke Skywalker comes out of obscurity and aids in this endeavor, going on to become the paragon of his era, striving against incredible adversity and evil to maintain hope and peace.

The thousands of years of Force users has brought us millions of practitioners of varying degrees of power. But only certain individuals rise above the others and make or break history. I think the question stands do these people come about due to naturally occurring laws structuring the SW universe and Force, or are they manifestations of its dual-natured self?

I think it's more likely that they are manifestations, since there is no overall rhyme or reason as to why certain exceptional or exotic individuals appear. Things like Nihilus, Adas, and Vitiate in particular spawn seemingly without a like cause.

As for free-will, I view it in a similar way to psmith. That, while we don't technically have true free-will, we have the illusion of free-will or choice. It's the exact same way I view the real world. While we still get to choose the actions we will take what we choose is entirely based on our genes and past experiences.

This sounds fair. IRL, I'm a hard determinist, because I think that all explanations presuppose cause and effect. Even scientific method does as much. And therefore the formulation of 'knowledge' implies that things are caused and they simply don't exist out of nothing and remain uncaused. That extends to us.

Free-will tells us we can choose, but our choices and who were are were caused in advance. Playing as Commander Shepherd in Mass Effect represents free-will, since you get three choices half of the time and not absolute freedom.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes... And? Not sure how that contradicts my view at all.

In this sense, free will is a subjective delusion; an alternate point of view - in reality, objectively, these great dooers of evil and good, had no free will to begin with - their lives were preset, created and manipulating by the Force based on the average desire of the collective, "the Force obeys your command, but it also guides you." As with any system, the average of the collective holds the greatest command over individuality.

Logically, this is the true nature of the real universe: The Balance, The Average. The needs of the many out-way the needs of the few. When things are not balanced, nature must intervene. What do you get? War, destruction, Star Wars; a path our society is headed toward, except it will be a very terrestrial destruction; and, although bacteria will survive and life may continue more balanced than ever, humans will be gone.

In both Star Wars and in reality - everyone must try to strive keep balance for themselves before the precipice, so the Force of Nature doesn't have to bring destruction by removing the creatures who off-balance it - if we are unruly and unbalanced, we're a flawed system.

In America, the 1% has 40% of all the wealth - the to ten percent has 90% of the wealth; this is not a balanced system; on the real though, the American economy is on the brink of destruction because we Americans can't balance it out.

Just the Republic in SW.

Oneness
Luke and Vader's victory at Endor caused more harm than good.

The Prophets of Rhand said it best when they proclaimed that Palpatine's failure was that, after he succeeded in destroying the Jedi and the Republic, was that he tried to create - potentially his '10,000 year reign' (most likely as a body hopper between Force sensitives) would have seen him ruling over more and more systems - but as a Roman Emperor archetype.

You know, I'm pretty sure 10,000 years under Sith would be a heck of a lot worse than the Vong war ending a bit faster.

There's constant suffering under such a system, and there's large amounts of the galaxy- the unknown region- that would have large numbers of worlds put to the torch under the conquest.

Furthermore, that assumes the rebels didn't success sooner or later anyway. It certainly would've been a longer and bloodier rebellion, but victory was not impossible. What if a ship Palpatine was on was destroyed in 18ABY? Then the fall of the Empire would still happen and there'd be less time to recover from it when the Vong did show up.

Or what if Vader dethroned Palpatine but failed to hold power due to his heavy handed methods? Or if master and apprentice mutual-killed?

The Empire inherently had a lynchpin. It was not designed as a stable system that could handle without it's leader well.

The Jedi and the Sith allow the destructive wars of Star Wars to perpetuate increasingly. They are both equally responsible for getting in the way of peace and little the normal, non-super beings who can't use the Force to govern themselves.

The Jedi only get in the way of 'peace' with it's an oppressive 'peace' that enslaves and kills countless people across the galaxy. I will again note, most of the time since their forming have been long, long periods of peace. Sometimes lasting for ten thousand years, sometimes one thousand, sometimes less, but overall, a good enough track record that I feel confident to say, 'these are not the instigators here.'

The Sith get in the way of peace because that's just what they do.

The Jedi aim for peace. The Sith aim for conflict. When the two are balanced, you don't have peace- view The Old Republic era for that, two governments, one with Sith one with Jedi, and you get destructive struggle.

Nor are lack of Jedi a sign of peace. One of the worst conflicts in galactic history, the Pius Dea Crusades, happened when the Jedi withdrew, unwilling to act, and went on for a thousand years until the Jedi allied with other resistance forces and took them down. No Sith, no force users in the helm. Just billions and billions dying for a millennium.

Furthermore, the Tion conflicts, and the time of Xim the Despot, no force users were behind that. Nor the Hutt wars. The Alsakan Conflicts were seventeen wars driven by political tensions and not force users.

The Jedi help reduce such conflicts.

You know, I'm pretty sure 10,000 years under Sith would be a heck of a lot worse than the Vong war ending a bit faster.

That many people died? The Sith Empire was ridiculously stable in comparison. Hell, most of them were.

The effect that the Empire had on the galaxy wasn't any different from the Republic, except that it unified the systems in a neuse, for a more secure, centralized, militarized and industrialized society.

It was actually better. All that Palpatine wanted was power, his reign wasn't all that "dark". The only reason for the Rebellion was because the systems were bitter about living in a police state, and having to share resources with other communities, they were bitter about a lack of free-market. Of course they're going to be bitter, they're selfish, ambitious, and greedy!

Think of the Galactic Empire as the mid-60's through mid 70's Golden Age of America after we came back from WWII, baby boomers, civil rights for everyone. Unlike the forces of the old and new Republic, Palpatine's military was human-based, human-operated, tight-nit, and just like in the sixties these humans were booming in population among the aliens of the galaxy, thriving because of Palpatine's humanocentric Military - the most powerful military in the mythos - because being one-species-based allowed for a larger and more cohesive, expansive, and factorized Force in that the similar anatomy and what-not allows for like crafts.

So we have autonomy, industry, science, efficiency, and security galaxy-wide.

The Rebellion plunged the galaxy into chaos; Anakin should have merked his evil son when he had the chance.

Or what if Vader dethroned Palpatine but failed to hold power due to his heavy handed methods?

Vader would have put down that pathetic rebellion by being a genius wartime tactician better than Batman, on top of being 200%+++ of the Emperor in power level as a fully committed Sith.

Vader did not see himself as a wise leader, neither was Sidious, an Emperor was unnecessary, in fact.

Or if master and apprentice mutual-killed?

This is exactly what happened in RoTJ, and the galaxy was plunged into chaos.

The Empire inherently had a lynchpin. It was not designed as a stable system that could handle without it's leader well.

No, it's just there was no time to organize the transition, you get a two decade cluster **** of competing military hierarchies. Vader, as "Emperor" what have allowed technocrats to make the Empire truly organized and unbeatable.

Originally posted by Oneness
It was actually better

No, it wasn't.

One only needs to read "Allegiance" where stormtroopers are rounding up aliens on a planet and massacring them for no reason to understand that the Empire did not make the galaxy a better place.

Oh sure, maybe everything was better off for the majority of citizens, i.e. the humans, just like a lot of Germany benefited under the Nazi's. But that doesn't balance out their crimes.

The Empire legalised slavery. Case closed. 😬

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, it wasn't.

One only needs to read "Allegiance" where stormtroopers are rounding up aliens on a planet and massacring them for no reason to understand that the Empire did not make the galaxy a better place.

Oh sure, maybe everything was better off for the majority of citizens, i.e. the humans, just like a lot of Germany benefited under the Nazi's. But that doesn't balance out their crimes.

The Empire legalised slavery. Case closed. 😬

A lot of the problems with the Empire was the lack of democracy. It was a perfect, centralized technocratic system that would hypothetically do wonders of the Emperor's position was removed, and if the technocrats operated on a morality basis, not an Emperor commands basis.

Vader was potentially powerful enough to gain a reach in the Central Intelligence Underground, long enough to prevent coops that might form fascist secret sects. Vader could have been the center piece of democracy in a system far superior to the Republic.

I digress, the Jedi and Sith have a special position, they are super beings, and are equally responsible for the death, tragedy and destruction throughout Star Wars.

Right, so it isn't perfect since the system orchestrates the rise of cruel tyrants to positions where they have complete power and no ethical restraints. Almost all high ranking Imperials are complete monsters for a reason.

Just like Socialism is perfect until humans get involved.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, so it isn't perfect since the system orchestrates the rise of cruel tyrants to positions where they have complete power and no ethical restraints. Almost all high ranking Imperials are complete monsters for a reason.

Just like Socialism is perfect until humans get involved.

In this way, there is an intelligent, centralized system - democracy is more of a an ethics committee - and every action is documented by said ethics committee and technocrats in office are accounted for. Less privacy is good, it becomes more difficult to organize a fascist coop when the whole system is dependent on experts in all fields pooling their expertise.

It's really where the real world would be headed, now I feel it's headed toward global annihilation.

I don't particularly care about your politics, I was responding to your laughable claims that the galaxy was better off under the Empire and that the Rebels were just a bunch of greedy assholes.

I do find your argument that it was so much better under Palpatines sturdy one-species-based system to be compelling though. Provided you weren't a alien of course. Otherwise I guess it would be pretty shit. But I guess who really cares about the rights and welfare of the minority if humans do well, huh?