Originally posted by Q99
He did beat DE Sidious in a duel.Kun... I guess you could write it off as him being unused to facing spirits, though another factor would be 'early EU by a writer who loved some spirits.' And Kun was a spirit empowered by the sacrifice of thousands of lives when he died, so it might have been stronger than living Kun even,
1. DE Sidious stomped Luke initially. Granted, there's some time difference here but I'm looking at Luke anywhere near RotJ. About the only thing I can recall he djd before fighting Vader again was go against the Black Sun, which is not composed of great saber duelists who use the Force.
2. Kun's spirit is explicitly stronger and requires life energy and the confines of the temple to manifest at all. It admits that using abilities is a strain when it ragdolls Horn and KOs Luke. But that's besides the point. This isn't someone with even JA Luke experience levels or NJO, it's RotJ Luke, who can't dodge a rancor, who got shot at Jabba's barge, who pretty much is worse at blaster bolt deflection and taking out enemies than AotC Anakin or his later apprentice Ashoka.
What has Luke does between ESB and ROTJ that warrant's mentioning?
Luke is so inconsistent in combats it's disgusting. I see what you're saying SMoose, but my guess is that Luke trained a lot on his own between ESB and RotJ. Even though he's not portrayed as a very impressive duelist in neither of those, it is indeed said his learning rate is extraordinary.
I agree that it's ridiculous he could even defeat Vader in RotJ doe. Lucas decided to turn Luke into a full-fledged 'Jedi Master' from being a farmboy who had no idea how to fight or what a lightsaber was in just a few years.
Except it's apparent everywhere but the ancient novelization which injects all kinds of "didn't happen" stuff that Vader as holding back, so his "victory" is largely unindicative of his skill level. And training by yourself is unquantified improvement as well, since the average Jedi Knight has 10,000 hours of lightsaber training. That's a little over a year straight of practice. Are you arguing that Luke surpassed this base level proficiency in two years alone? It makes zero sense.
Here's what I'd like to see:
1. Supporting commentary from the RotJ dvd. I don't have a copy at this time.
2. Some EU feat or proof of improvement during that two year gap which conclusively shows Luke as better than say, a proficiency Jedi Knight from the Great Sith Wars (Jolee) or Random Jedi from the PT era for that matter.
And thus inferior to G-canon. Here's what I'm seeing:
1. Luke is really good cuz he learns fast (even though so does Anakin, so does Revan, so does Exar Kun, etc.)
2. Luke is really good cuz he studied Obi-Wan's works during a two year hiatus without training against a living Force using opponent.
3. Luke is really good cuz C-canon sources embellish RotJ and retroactively inject context and interpretation while nothing official from GL has been brought to the table to confirm it.
Again, the -average- Jedi has 10k hours of saber training against living opponents. Luke couldn't have done this, so the idea that he has this mutant learning capability appears to be a new fiction again brought on by two sources: the novelization which has issues of injecting stuff not seen on film (Luke briefly reflecting lightning) and a Fightsaber article as old as AotC. Neither is convincing.
Moose
1. Luke is really good cuz he learns fast (even though so does Anakin, so does Revan, so does Exar Kun, etc.)
He learns fast *by those standards*. His skill increased much quicker than Anakin's.
Again, the -average- Jedi has 10k hours of saber training against living opponents. Luke couldn't have done this, so the idea that he has this mutant learning capability appears to be a new fiction again brought on by two sources: the novelization which has issues of injecting stuff not seen on film (Luke briefly reflecting lightning) and a Fightsaber article as old as AotC. Neither is convincing.
The thing is, whatever the reason? He has a demonstrated really, really impressive fight with Vader the Jedi killer, known for beating multiple masters at once.
And there's no indication I've seen that Vader let Luke chop his hand off or anything.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. DE Sidious stomped Luke initially.
At that point Luke had at least one foot in the dark side and his mind and spirit were clouded by it so he wasn't at his best.
In the rematch, when he was at his best due to his mind and spirit being clear, he beat Palpatine.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What has Luke does between ESB and ROTJ that warrant's mentioning?Some EU feat or proof of improvement during that two year gap which conclusively shows Luke as better than say, a proficiency Jedi Knight from the Great Sith Wars (Jolee) or Random Jedi from the PT era for that matter.
In "Shadows of the Empire" he beat Guri, a human replica droid that possessed superhuman speed and strength, in a fist fight. She was strong enough to effortlessly break metal shackles and could have easily overpowered Chewbacca had she needed to.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Man, the Luke love around here is strong. Did anyone rewatch RotJ recently?
I did. If we went purely by the movies, Luke is a far better fighter than almost anyone in the PT. No spinning around, no twirling his lightsabre like a baton, no passing it from hand to hand like a moron; just good, solid sabre fighting.
Let's be honest here. The duels in the OT were way better than those in the PT for the reasons I just described.
I did. If we went purely by the movies, Luke is a far better fighter than almost anyone in the PT. No spinning around, no twirling his lightsabre like a baton, no passing it from hand to hand like a moron; just good, solid sabre fighting.
Let's be honest here. The duels in the OT were way better than those in the PT for the reasons I just described.
No.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
I did. If we went purely by the movies, Luke is a far better fighter than almost anyone in the PT. No spinning around, no twirling his lightsabre like a baton, no passing it from hand to hand like a moron; just good, solid sabre fighting.Let's be honest here. The duels in the OT were way better than those in the PT for the reasons I just described.
👆
Aside from the ANH duel, I agree.
