Originally posted by operator616Yes. Like I said earlier: they were physical embodiments of metaphysical concepts-- not unlike the Endless.
Ok, but we both agree that their battle was physical, correct?
But yeah, both of them sustained physical damage during the battle, at some point. Never said otherwise.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. Like I said earlier: they were physical embodiments of metaphysical concepts-- not unlike the Endless.But yeah, both of them sustained physical damage during the battle, at some point. Never said otherwise.
Good 👆
Though i have a question for you: Where exactly would you rank Mandrakk? above Lucifer and Michael?
Just curious about your opinion.
Originally posted by operator616
Good 👆Though i have a question for you: Where exactly would you rank Mandrakk? above Lucifer and Michael?
Just curious about your opinion.
I don't think the relationship between the Primal Monitor and the Presence is clear enough to rank them accurately. If the Primal Monitor had been expanded upon more, that may have changed. IMO if the Primal Monitor is indeed meant to be greater than the Presence (and I'm certainly not saying it is), then I would rank Mandrakk above Lucifer/Michael purely because of that barring any other evidence.
But as it stands, I agree with Galan that Lucifer (& Michael) at this point ought to be considered greater based on a greater volume and less abstract set of feats.
Originally posted by Galan007
I would *probably* have Lucifer higher, simply because it was made very clear that he was beyond conceptual embodiments...beyond anything aside from Yahweh, really.
I agree.
Originally posted by Cogito
I don't think the relationship between the Primal Monitor and the Presence is clear enough to rank them accurately. If the Primal Monitor had been expanded upon more, that may have changed. IMO if the Primal Monitor is indeed meant to be greater than the Presence (and I'm certainly not saying it is), then I would rank Mandrakk above Lucifer/Michael purely because of that barring any other evidence.But as it stands, I agree with Galan that Lucifer (& Michael) at this point ought to be considered greater based on a greater volume and less abstract set of feats.
Well, Morrison did call the Primal Monitor (Over-Void) the white page, and even "God", here's the relevant part of the interview:
l. For me, the cool, essential idea of all stories being real creates this great cosmology to play with. It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible. As I dug down closer to the very root of the activity I find myself engaged in as a career, I was thinking "what is the basis of the comic book story? What actually is it?"
In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God.
you can find it here if you want (and in case you're unaware):
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=2
As you know, this same title applies to the Presence. Morrison just invented a cosmology of his own.
......which is funny because it was Morrison himself who introduced the term "the Presence" (God) in the first place.
Could it be the same being? Maybe.
Though the same thing applies to Synnar, he is God's architect, there are couple of instances, here's one, from Hawkman Special (2008):
http://i.imgur.com/qodqhZ8.jpg
sorry for not cropping it, i have problems with cropping scans today.
All 3 of those, Mandrakk, Synnar, and Lucifer stand directly below their respective God.
In which case, as you said, it would come to "who's God is greater", but since we don't know that, we go by feats, and Lucifer's are the greatest, the same thing applies to Synnar. Since his feat is greater (imo) he wins.
Though i respect all opinions, regardless. 🙂
Originally posted by operator616
Well, Morrison did call the Primal Monitor (Over-Void) the white page, and even "God", here's the relevant part of the interview:l. For me, the cool, essential idea of all stories being real creates this great cosmology to play with. It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible. As I dug down closer to the very root of the activity I find myself engaged in as a career, I was thinking "what is the basis of the comic book story? What actually is it?"
In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God.
you can find it here if you want (and in case you're unaware):
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=2
As you know, this same title applies to the Presence. Morrison just invented a cosmology of his own.
......which is funny because it was Morrison himself who introduced the term "the Presence" (God) in the first place.
Could it be the same being? Maybe.
Though the same thing applies to Synnar, he is God's architect, there are couple of instances, here's one, from Hawkman Special (2008):
http://i.imgur.com/qodqhZ8.jpg
sorry for not cropping it, i have problems with cropping scans today.
All 3 of those, Mandrakk, Synnar, and Lucifer stand directly below their respective God.
In which case, as you said, it would come to "who's God is greater", but since we don't know that, we go by feats, and Lucifer's are the greatest, the same thing applies to Synnar. Since his feat is greater (imo) he wins.
Though i respect all opinions, regardless. 🙂
I'm familiar with that bit from Morrison, but it still doesn't directly show what's more powerful -- the blank page (Primal Monitor) or the content (God/etc). Now, Superman Beyond kind of maybe hinted at that answer, as content (Superman's story) defeated the blank page's agent (Mandrakk).
Anyways, as I said I put Lucifer probably slightly above Mandrakk, and I guess for the same reason I'd put Synnar slightly above Mandrakk (although I like to pretend Synnar the Demiurge never existed)
Originally posted by operator616They definitely aren't the same being, imo. It was mentioned that Primal Monitor was initially unaware of the 'germ world'(multiverse) that had manifested within itself. That is the reason it created the original 'probes' to scout the multiverse in the first place: to further examine what it perceived as a 'flaw' within itself. This tells us that PM didn't create the multiverse-- not consciously, at least. Conversely, the Presence/God was obviously very much aware of the 'germ world', given that he purposefully/consciously created it as part of his grand scheme.
Could it be the same being? Maybe.
I believe Primal Monitor was meant to be a sentient representation of the blank paper/canvas on which RL comic book writers/artists portray their works-- and the Presence/God a representation of the RL comic book writers/artists themselves.
Originally posted by Galan007
They definitely aren't the same being, imo. It was mentioned that Primal Monitor was initially unaware of the 'germ world'(multiverse) that had manifested within itself. That is the reason it created the original 'probes' to scout the multiverse in the first place: to further examine what it perceived as a 'flaw' within itself. This tells us that PM didn't create the multiverse-- not consciously, at least. Conversely, the Presence/God was obviously very much aware of the 'germ world', given that he purposefully/consciously created it as part of his grand scheme.I believe Primal Monitor was meant to be a sentient representation of the blank paper/canvas on which RL comic book writers/artists portray their works-- and the Presence/God a representation of the RL comic book writers/artists themselves.
👆 That's what i'm thinking too in terms of the relationship between PM and Presence. cool post man.
Originally posted by Galan007
They definitely aren't the same being, imo. It was mentioned that Primal Monitor was initially unaware of the 'germ world'(multiverse) that had manifested within itself. That is the reason it created the original 'probes' to scout the multiverse in the first place: to further examine what it perceived as a 'flaw' within itself. This tells us that PM didn't create the multiverse-- not consciously, at least. Conversely, the Presence/God was obviously very much aware of the 'germ world', given that he purposefully/consciously created it as part of his grand scheme.I believe Primal Monitor was meant to be a sentient representation of the blank paper/canvas on which RL comic book writers/artists portray their works-- and the Presence/God a representation of the RL comic book writers/artists themselves.
You're right, didn't take that into consideration.
I agree on the Primal Monitor part, as for The Presence......it depends, imo.
In Paul Jenkins' Hellblazer run, last arc, The Presence (at the time, the term wasn't invented yet, so they referred to him as "the creator"😉 was outsmarted by John (there are other Hellblazer arcs who reference God, and don't exactly portray him as the writer)
In Supergirl v4 (Writer was Peter David), The Presence's full power was usurped.
Or like in that Swamp God story, where he became more powerful than "God", Tefe was generating God level voice to get rid of the word, that was written by Mark Millar, same guy, who 2 years later wrote JLA: Paradise Lost, same story which makes it pretty clear that the Presence is unbeatable, as it is "part of everything". Actually, some writers like Horrocks while writing Hunter: Age of Magic, pretty much ignored previous established concepts like the word and the voice (God) being separate and regarded them as the same being.....
Even in Mike Carey's Lucifer, Scoria digged into Yahweh's mind, and got usurped by the giant brothers.
There are more examples (i can reference if anybody wants) but point is, The Presence isn't always written the same, but then again, it could be said that Presence deliberately permitted all those showings, so meh (Even Lucifer thought he was rebelling when in fact he was fullfilling God's plan, this was shown in both, Sandman and Lucifer series). Still, i don't think that in all instances the Presence is meant to be the writer.
I agree that DC, just like Marvel and Indie, doesn't 'always' portray God as a RL writer/artist... There are always going to be different takes on a character of that... Magnitude.
However, this notion is fairly important to the discussion at hand because Morrison(the same guy who invented the Primal Monitor/Mandrakk/Thought-Robot) also had a very specific take on what 'God' truly is in the world of comics(ie. the RL writer/artist) when he wrote Animal Man.
