Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
That's the first time I've ever seen a mental attack give someone a bloody nose and two black eyes.
Me too, but it was explictly stated and explained to be a mental attack. CU even said he couldn't take him in a fight, so he had to use his mental powers on him. And when Cain broke free of his containment, he was about to beat CU down until the Uni-Power told him he was unworthy and transferred to Cain.
Originally posted by KingD19It wasn't. The force-field made him untouchable, he wasn't even touched by any attack from Thor before he lifted that force-field. He was as strong and as durable as ever. The force field wasn't invented in that issue. Also what worse punishment? Merged hulk brought him to his knees with a punch, Onslaught KTFO him with a punch and what not. This myth that Juggernaut can't be hurt is just that, a myth.
In that issue his durability was clearly tied into his forcefield, when it never was before or after considering he's taken worse punishment from people just as strong with ease without the forcefield.
And Captain Universe didn't beat him up. If you read the issue he shattered his helmet and used a powerful mental attack on him.I'm sure this is done by a mental attack.
Thor loses this.
He needs magic (and more than just Mjolnir's blunt force) to drop Cain.
And folks here are correct... sans Magic, Psionics, or BFR- there are VERY few beings that can even affect Cain.
Physical bounce off of him like water. Energy attacks are no better.
You need retarded power to even dent the guy with raw brute force.
And even then, he heals as fast as a ticked off Hulk.
Juggy FTW 10/10 with these conditions.
Originally posted by KingD19
Cain Marko = JuggernautAnd no, Thor has never knocked out Juggernaut. The one time he "almost" succeeded, he had to take away Juggernaut's forcefield and his durability without it in that issue was sh*t, which is not the case. As in the last few years he hasn't even had his forcefield and has handled all physical damage just as easily as with it.
Hell, Cain doesn't even have his Juggernaut powers right now.
What are you talking about? The writer made it very clear that he was aware of how powerful Juggernaut was and his durability, force field or no force field:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor6.jpg
DeFalco wrote arguably the most powerful Juggernaut we've ever seen and physically he was as powerful as ever. I have no idea why some people are upset about that showing. Juggernaut has never been completely invulnerable without his force field and as far back as the 60's he was contributing his invulnerability to the force field. If DeFalco didn't write such a physically unstoppable Juggernaut, even the force field wouldn't have garnered the respect it has.
Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
Does anyone know what these are? Canon?http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/189/g20g.jpg
That's from an Avenger's one-shot. I don't think it was released under the Marvel Adventures imprint so technically it should be canon but due to the story within I just considered it not something that's really applicable. But whatever, people post Let the Battle Begin.
People have been physically hurt worse than that by psychic attacks before.
And you're using Onslaught? That entire entire didn't even make sense considering Cain wasn't even in possession of the Ruby of Cyttorak when it was ripped from him.
In recent years since he came back, he's fought WWH, Skaar,(without his forcefield against both of them) Thor and Luke Cage at the same time while weakened after his Cap Universe moment, and even King Hyperion while weakened.
Originally posted by KingD19
Me too, but it was explictly stated and explained to be a mental attack. CU even said he couldn't take him in a fight, so he had to use his mental powers on him. And when Cain broke free of his containment, he was about to beat CU down until the Uni-Power told him he was unworthy and transferred to Cain.
What are you talking about? All Captain Universe did, and this was made very clear, was probe his mind for a weakness after blasting his helmet off. Nowhere was it said that it was purely a mental attack that damaged Cain.
The next time we see him, Juggernaut's beaten into a coma, and is black and blue. Looking at his state, I think it's safe to say Captain Universe went on to pound on him but if you want to assume only the attacks seen on panel count, it's far more likely that the energy blast f*cked him instead of a telepathic probe 😬.
Originally posted by KingD19Like?
People have been physically hurt worse than that by psychic attacks before.
And you're using Onslaught? That entire entire didn't even make sense considering Cain wasn't even in possession of the Ruby of Cyttorak when it was ripped from him.Yes, I am. Plot holes like those always happen in comics.
In recent years since he came back, he's fought WWH, Skaar,(without his forcefield against both of them) Thor and Luke Cage at the same time while weakened after his Cap Universe moment, and even King Hyperion while weakened.Hulk affected him with his blows all the same, King Hyperion beat the shit out of him. That wasn't Thor, that was Ragnarok. He was nearly killed by a building exploding FFS and Angel had to save him by transfusing his blood while he was weakened.
Originally posted by abhilegend
It wasn't. The force-field made him untouchable, he wasn't even touched by any attack from Thor before he lifted that force-field. He was as strong and as durable as ever. The force field wasn't invented in that issue. Also what worse punishment? Merged hulk brought him to his knees with a punch, Onslaught KTFO him with a punch and what not. This myth that Juggernaut can't be hurt is just that, a myth.I'm sure this is done by a mental attack.
Good points Super Guy.
In truth- Cain's FF has all but been retconned out of existence at this point.
I don't think he's even manifested in over a decade.
The issue where Thor dropped his FF was bunk for all sides.
The writer assumed that Cain's durability was tied to his FF. It's not.
And the writer assumed that turning off said FF was "removing all magic" from Cain. It is not.
Removing all magic from Cain would make him human.
Stunting his connection to Cyttorak would make him "Huggernaut."
(Due to residual magic infused into his being from decades of being a magic conduit for the Demon God.)
...come to think of it; that is about the best explanation for that horrid comic fight with Thor:
The spell that Thor cast by using Mjolnir to "dispel" Cain's FF and "turn off all magic" actually simply blocked Cain's direct access to Cyttorak for a short while.
Which, as we know, powers Cain down to "Huggernaut" form (which is still very high Class 100).
Thor could beat the crap out of Huggernaut with his fists, and Huggernaut would likely put up a showing quite similar to what we saw.
Then, after Thor's hammer returned, Cyttorak's connection was restored along with Cain's true durability level.
Now THAT makes sense.
And a helluva lot more of it than the writer of Thor and Jugg's two issue "Force Field Battle" ever did.
Good grief. What a fail of battle.
Anywho-
Juggernaut is "virtually" invulnerable. 99% of what's out there in the Universe cannot harm him.
But he is not "100%" invulnerable. Sufficient force "can" stun or harm him. But it takes an idiotic amount of it to do so.
For all intents and purposes- you need to be packing magic or find some way to get to Cain's brain FTW.
Punches and Blasts (even at Herald Class) will typically earn you little more than a smirk from Juggs.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Like?Yes, I am. Plot holes like those always happen in comics.
Hulk affected him with his blows all the same, King Hyperion beat the shit out of him. That wasn't Thor, that was Ragnarok. He was nearly killed by a building exploding FFS and Angel had to save him by transfusing his blood while he was weakened.
But quick corrections bud-
Hulk does not affect him all of the time. It takes a lot of power amping.
There have been three battles where Hulk has harmed Cain to a degree.
And Hulk was heavily amped in each one.
King Hyperion fought a weakened Juggernaut in that Thunderbolts fight.
Juggernaut was (as noted by Luke Cage) "taken down a peg on the power scale" after making nice with the locals post-Captain Universe.
Cain repaired the city. Cyttorak did not like his "Avatar of Destruction" acting like Captain Planet.
So he gave him the "Huggernaut" treatment again.
Which is why Thor-Class lighting could harm him, and Superman (KH) Class Strikes could harm him.
When Cain ticks off his Sugar Daddy, the result is often a temporary depowering.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Good points Super Guy.In truth- Cain's FF has all but been retconned out of existence at this point.
I don't think he's even manifested in over a decade.The issue where Thor dropped his FF was bunk for all sides.
The writer assumed that Cain's durability was tied to his FF. It's not.
And the writer assumed that turning off said FF was "removing all magic" from Cain. It is not.
Removing all magic from Cain would make him human.
Stunting his connection to Cyttorak would make him "Huggernaut."
(Due to residual magic infused into his being from decades of being a magic conduit for the Demon God.)...come to think of it; that is about the best explanation for that horrid comic fight with Thor:
The spell that Thor cast by using Mjolnir to "dispel" Cain's FF and "turn off all magic" actually simply blocked Cain's direct access to Cyttorak for a short while.
Which, as we know, powers Cain down to "Huggernaut" form (which is still very high Class 100).Thor could beat the crap out of Huggernaut with his fists, and Huggernaut would likely put up a showing quite similar to what we saw.
Then, after Thor's hammer returned, Cyttorak's connection was restored along with Cain's true durability level.
Now THAT makes sense.
And a helluva lot more of it than the writer of Thor and Jugg's two issue "Force Field Battle" ever did.
Good grief. What a fail of battle.Anywho-
Juggernaut is "virtually" invulnerable. 99% of what's out there in the Universe cannot harm him.
But he is not "100%" invulnerable. Sufficient force "can" stun or harm him. But it takes an idiotic amount of it to do so.
For all intents and purposes- you need to be packing magic or find some way to get to Cain's brain FTW.Punches and Blasts (even at Herald Class) will typically earn you little more than a smirk from Juggs.
So it wasn't huggernaut. You could make excuses all you want but the reality is that Thor nearly KTFO him under one minute.
Originally posted by KingD19
No, he fought Ragnarok later on with Hyde after he temporarily got his powers back.He fought Thor and Luke Cage in an alternate dimension Swamp Thing teleported them to when he was tired of his treatment as a Thunderbolt.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
But quick corrections bud-Hulk does not affect him all of the time. It takes a lot of power amping.
There have been three battles where Hulk has harmed Cain to a degree.
And Hulk was heavily amped in each one.King Hyperion fought a weakened Juggernaut in that Thunderbolts fight.
Juggernaut was (as noted by Luke Cage) "taken down a peg on the power scale" after making nice with the locals post-Captain Universe.
Cain repaired the city. Cyttorak did not like his "Avatar of Destruction" acting like Captain Planet.
So he gave him the "Huggernaut" treatment again.
Which is why Thor-Class lighting could harm him, and Superman (KH) Class Strikes could harm him.When Cain ticks off his Sugar Daddy, the result is often a temporary depowering.
I know he wasn't at full power against KH, it was again an oneside beatdown. LOL @ KH being superman class though.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Good points Super Guy.In truth- Cain's FF has all but been retconned out of existence at this point.
I don't think he's even manifested in over a decade.The issue where Thor dropped his FF was bunk for all sides.
The writer assumed that Cain's durability was tied to his FF. It's not.
And the writer assumed that turning off said FF was "removing all magic" from Cain. It is not.
Removing all magic from Cain would make him human.
Stunting his connection to Cyttorak would make him "Huggernaut."
(Due to residual magic infused into his being from decades of being a magic conduit for the Demon God.)...come to think of it; that is about the best explanation for that horrid comic fight with Thor:
The spell that Thor cast by using Mjolnir to "dispel" Cain's FF and "turn off all magic" actually simply blocked Cain's direct access to Cyttorak for a short while.
Which, as we know, powers Cain down to "Huggernaut" form (which is still very high Class 100).Thor could beat the crap out of Huggernaut with his fists, and Huggernaut would likely put up a showing quite similar to what we saw.
Then, after Thor's hammer returned, Cyttorak's connection was restored along with Cain's true durability level.
Now THAT makes sense.
And a helluva lot more of it than the writer of Thor and Jugg's two issue "Force Field Battle" ever did.
Good grief. What a fail of battle.Anywho-
Juggernaut is "virtually" invulnerable. 99% of what's out there in the Universe cannot harm him.
But he is not "100%" invulnerable. Sufficient force "can" stun or harm him. But it takes an idiotic amount of it to do so.
For all intents and purposes- you need to be packing magic or find some way to get to Cain's brain FTW.Punches and Blasts (even at Herald Class) will typically earn you little more than a smirk from Juggs.
Just so you know, DeFalco himself has pointed out that Thor simply removed the force field.
And no, he didn't tie Juggernaut's durability to the force field. Cain went on to point out that he was resistant to all forms of pain and injury. He however did tie his invulnerability to the force field. Which is NOT a contradiction and very much in-line with continuity based on the comics that come before and after. And I mean like in the 60's:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14wytdl&s=6#.UqVQU-IVBfs
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35c4m5f&s=6#.UqVQZ-IVBfs
As a matter of fact, denouncing DeFalco when we have FAR worse showings for Cain (Vs. Nightcrawler, Captain Universe, Storm/Spider-Woman, Nimrod, large fan, Feral, Shatterstar, Onslaught, Deadpool, Vision etc.) is silly imo. How about we do a tally of all the times he's been portrayed as invulnerable without his force field and all the times he's been hurt without it?
Even that Oblivion scene was later expanded on and was made it clear it was no real feat and he was simply banished and died:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0021.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0022.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0023.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0024.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0029.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0030.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0031.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Absorbing%20Man/Battle/Thunderbolts/t-bolts_150_0032.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/Thunderbolts2/Thunderbolts153014.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/Thunderbolts2/Thunderbolts153015.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/Thunderbolts2/Thunderbolts153016.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/Thunderbolts2/Thunderbolts153018.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/Thunderbolts2/Thunderbolts153019.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/Thunderbolts2/Thunderbolts153020.jpg
This version of Juggernaut wasn't as strong as the full powered Classic. Better then Huggernaut imo but he still suffered some meh showings but that's mostly because of being on a team. Happens to everyone.
