Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The forcefield is nothing. When was the last time you've seen him use it?Last time they met Juggernaut was running on fewer cylinders and Thor still couldn't drop him.
Without the force field, Thor would either have the edge or beat the crap out of him depending on which showings you want to use or how far he's pushed.
Couldn't drop him? He struck him twice. Good endurance showing for Cain, but it hardly means that Thor can't put him down. If Thor pummels away at him, we know how this goes.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt with the forcefield, what difference does it make? Thor had a minute to put Juggernaut down without the forcefield and he couldn't do it. Last time they met Juggernaut had no forcefield and was at severely reduced power and it took Thor, Cage and eventually Iron Man to finally put him away.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Giving you the benefit of the doubt with the forcefield, what difference does it make? Thor had a minute to put Juggernaut down without the forcefield and he couldn't do it. Last time they met Juggernaut had no forcefield and was at severely reduced power and it took Thor, Cage and eventually Iron Man to finally put him away.
ONE minute, WITHOUT his hammer and Juggernaut was moments away from defeat. Is their some kind of time limit to his fight? If not, how do can you possibly think that Thor being one punch away from defeating Cain after a brief 60 second fight means anything other then Thor beats him up in a vs. fight?
😬 That's definitely one way to look at the fight. Although I think it was pretty clear that Thor was noticeably above Thunderbolts Juggernaut.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Just so you know, DeFalco himself has pointed out that Thor simply removed the force field.And no, he didn't tie Juggernaut's durability to the force field. Cain went on to point out that he was resistant to all forms of pain and injury. He however did tie his invulnerability to the force field. Which is NOT a contradiction and very much in-line with continuity based on the comics that come before and after. And I mean like in the 60's:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14wytdl&s=6#.UqVQU-IVBfs
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35c4m5f&s=6#.UqVQZ-IVBfsAs a matter of fact, denouncing DeFalco when we have FAR worse showings for Cain (Vs. Nightcrawler, Captain Universe, Storm/Spider-Woman, Nimrod, large fan, Feral, Shatterstar, Onslaught, Deadpool, Vision etc.) is silly imo. How about we do a tally of all the times he's been portrayed as invulnerable without his force field and all the times he's been hurt without it?
Even that Oblivion scene was later expanded on and was made it clear it was no real feat and he was simply banished and died:
Greeting Rage. Always a pleasure.
I disagree though on your stance regarding DeFalco's writing in that issue.
This is not a knock on all his work. Just that battle sequence.
The rest I'll hit in bits if you don't mind. 😮💨
"Just so you know, DeFalco himself has pointed out that Thor simply removed the force field."
I understand what he claims to have done. I disagree with how it was portrayed on panel.
There is a conflict between his words and how Cain's modern power-set works.
"And no, he didn't tie Juggernaut's durability to the force field. Cain went on to point out that he was resistant to all forms of pain and injury. He however did tie his invulnerability to the force field."
I don't see the difference. Invulnerability is simply the state of having absolute durability. I used the terms interchangeably.
And Cain's FF was absolutely tied to his durability in that particular issue; which is off base.
When the Force Field was stripped, Thor's punches "hurt" Cain.
They made him scream out in pain.
Thus he was obviously not resistant to all forms of pain or injury at that time.
If he was- Thor's punches would not have caused him pain or injured him.
"Which is NOT a contradiction and very much in-line with continuity based on the comics that come before and after."
Comics before and after?
Before- Agreed. But only in VERY early showings.
After- I don't believe so. Cain's Power-Set has been solid for decades now. It just took a few years to flesh it out.
In point of fact...
Juggernaut's character concept evolved greatly over the first few years.
In his first battle with fuzzy Beast; his power was tied to his helmet.
In his early X-Men days; he was an arcane spell caster.
But that was a very long time ago.
And this is not what "modern" Juggernaut is (modern including the timeframe of the above mentioned battle with Thor- and pretty much everything over the past 30 years).
Everything 1980's + has been very stable.
And honestly- If you back far enough in anyone's history you will find oddities.
Heck; Iron Man was able to knock out Silver Surfer with a charge attack in the 70's. Things change. Cain sure as heck did.
DeFalco wrote "modern" (post 70's) Juggernaut. And he wrote him wrong.
Modern Juggernaut's invulnerability is an enchantment built into his skin.
Not his Force Field.
All the FF did for him was keep objects from touching him. It did not alter his invulnerability to damage.
Juggs is also vulnerable to powerful magic. That Godblast should have knocked a bloody hole through his chest. FF or no. That is divine magic of insane proportions.
(And I get that Thor wasn't 100%... still, a Godblast is a Godblast.)
On a side note:
This is likely why Marvel hasn't displayed the FF in over a decade.
Because it became an unnecessary duplication of power-set: an invulnerable being does not need a FF. It is redundant.
Thus Marvel has taken Cain's FF away.
"And I mean like in the 60's:"
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14wytdl&s=6#.UqVQU-IVBfs
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35c4m5f&s=6#.UqVQZ-IVBfs
Like I said- character evolution.
Cain dropped that mantle long ago. His Respect Thread on this very Forum shows as much.
Even without his FF; Cain casually walks through titanic amounts of physical damage with no effect.
As for dying in space after an "eternity"- I don't see how this is contrary to his Invulnerability being "skin deep."
Time was his enemy- not punches.
Even Cyttorak itself is not immune to eventual entropy.
"As a matter of fact, denouncing DeFalco"
Not DeFalco as a whole. Only his work on that battle...
"when we have FAR worse showings for Cain"
Most have Plot Bomb reasons to explain them.
I'll need to hit on each incident to show where and why.
"(Vs. Nightcrawler, Captain Universe, Storm/Spider-Woman, Nimrod, large fan, Feral, Shatterstar, Onslaught, Deadpool, Vision etc.) is silly imo."
Kk... let's see here...
Nightcrawler- Not sure what you are referring too. Issue #?
Captain Universe- Blew his helmet off and Psi-Blasted the hell out of him.
Storm/Spider-Woman- Is likely PIS. I need the issue # to see if Cain was weakened. I don't like to cry PIS often; but the fact is that Cain has tanked FAR worse than "Storm Class" of damage with his FF down. This event sounds like a fringe showing. Low Ball all the way. Perhaps even non-canon. Need issue #...
Nimrod- Did not physically harm Cain. He targeted his brain with Sonics and mimicked the same effect as a Psionic Attack (neural overload). The attack bypassed his body and went for the brain. Cain's brain has always been his Achilles heel. It's his Kryptonite.
Feral- Much like Nightcrawler- not sure what you are referring too...
Shatterstar- Used a magic weapon. His blades are enchanted to slice through magic barriers. They are practically custom made to carve out Cain's eye.
Onslaught- Was a reality manipulator (and a supreme psionic). His power level was high enough to be able to strip away Cain's Enchantments. And once you do that- you get "Huggernaut."
"How about we do a tally of all the times he's been portrayed as invulnerable without his force field and all the times he's been hurt without it?"
Please do. I can always use more material for my Hulk/Juggy debates.
But to be honest- the tally would be rather short; and most of the showings would have a specific reason for Cain's Invulnerability (or durability if preferred) to be lessened in said showing.
But yes; by all means list a tally. I would love to discuss them with you.
Originally posted by Damborgson
is he talking about Thunderbolts juggernaut? Thor broke his helmet with two shots, made him scream with lightning then shrugged off his punch. Thor was going to beat the living crap out of him if that fight went on.
Cain was power reduced during the Thunderbolts run.
Cyttorak punished him and gave him the Huggernaut treatment.
It was not full-powered Juggernaut in that run.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Giving you the benefit of the doubt with the forcefield, what difference does it make? Thor had a minute to put Juggernaut down without the forcefield and he couldn't do it. Last time they met Juggernaut had no forcefield and was at severely reduced power and it took Thor, Cage and eventually Iron Man to finally put him away.
Holy crap!
KB!!! 😱
...don't suppose Vendel or Bon are around?
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, I don't know how anybody thinks Juggy wins this. Also who think Thor needed help against Huggernaut?
Oh, and to answer the Q-
1. Because Thor has never shown that he packs the power to even damage a Full Powered Juggernaut with Mjolnir strikes alone.
2. I'm assuming "no energy" includes no magical energy? If so, then Thor cannot power-down Cain to Huggernaut levels again.
3. Mjolnir has not shown the magical properties needed to bypass Cyttorak's Durability Enchantment without using magical energy manipulation first.
These stips make Thor an easy target for Cain.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Thor loses this.He needs magic (and more than just Mjolnir's blunt force) to drop Cain.
And folks here are correct... sans Magic, Psionics, or BFR- there are VERY few beings that can even affect Cain.
Physical bounce off of him like water. Energy attacks are no better.
You need retarded power to even dent the guy with raw brute force.
And even then, he heals as fast as a ticked off Hulk.Juggy FTW 10/10 with these conditions.
Agreed.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Oh, and to answer the Q-1. Because Thor has never shown that he packs the power to even damage a Full Powered Juggernaut with Mjolnir strikes alone.
2. I'm assuming "no energy" includes no magical energy? If so, then Thor cannot power-down Cain to Huggernaut levels again.
3. Mjolnir has not shown the magical properties needed to bypass Cyttorak's Durability Enchantment without using magical energy manipulation first.
These stips make Thor an easy target for Cain.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Except when Thor nearly KTFO him while Juggy was as strong as ever. Your theories are amusing. Point me to the scan which says Cain was weakened when Thor removed his force field. As it is your random theories are worthless. Thor didn't weaken him to huggernaut level.
Just because Juggernaut said he was as strong as ever doesn't make it so. He obviously didn't know what was going on. Thor had to explain it to him, he even said "I don't get the point."