Originally posted by Odekahn
So his statement wasn't true, but Cain's "stronger than ever" comment was?
We know Thor dropped Cain's force field, which was his intent via statement and artistic depiction. It was clear that that was the mystical energy being negated, and that Cain was still very much superhuman (otherwise Thor would have ended him then and there).
It's a bit of an assumption to assume that Thor dropped his physical strength in addition when there's nothing to suggest that got lowered either.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
We know Thor dropped Cain's force field, which was his intent via statement and artistic depiction. It was clear that that was the mystical energy being negated, and that Cain was still very much superhuman (otherwise Thor would have ended him then and there).It's a bit of an assumption to assume that Thor dropped his physical strength in addition when there's nothing to suggest that got lowered either.
The fight itself suggests it imo. And "huggernaut" is still superhuman.
Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it was just his force-field which was negated.
On panel, it stated all magic was negated. Not just a Force Field.
Claiming it was only the force field IS interpretation.
It is YOUR interpretation. And it is contrary to what is printed.
Which is the exact thing you just flung shit at me over.
Reduce your hypocrisy.
It lessens you.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Greeting Rage. Always a pleasure.
Same to you.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
I disagree though on your stance regarding DeFalco's writing in that issue.
This is not a knock on all his work. Just that battle sequence.The rest I'll hit in bits if you don't mind. 😮💨
I understand what he claims to have done. I disagree with how it was portrayed on panel.
There is a conflict between his words and how Cain's modern power-set works.
It’s fine if you disagree, but claiming that he was depowered to Huggernaut levels or something (When the writer even made his intentions clear to us back on ComicBoards) is baseless speculation unless supported by another comic and imho, silly.
It’d be like me posting these scans as evidence since Sphinx altered reality and powers remained unchanged (Though I wouldn’t use them myself):
http://i40.tinypic.com/20fxobk.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/33mskly.jpg
Originally posted by jaxthejesterI don't see the difference. Invulnerability is simply the state of having absolute durability. I used the terms interchangeably.
And Cain's FF was absolutely tied to his durability in that particular issue; which is off base.
When the Force Field was stripped, Thor's punches "hurt" Cain.
They made him scream out in pain.
Thus he was obviously not resistant to all forms of pain or injury at that time.
If he was- Thor's punches would not have caused him pain or injured him.
Which is completely in line with continuity. Without his force field, the Juggernaut has never been portrayed as invulnerable to attacks from someone on Thor’s level any more than other elite strong men and has been hurt plenty of times. His force field was always what made him completely invulnerable, without it, he’d lose to Thor or the Hulk in a close combat fight.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
before and after."Comics before and after?
Before- Agreed. But only in VERY early showings.
After- I don't believe so. Cain's Power-Set has been solid for decades now. It just took a few years to flesh it out.
In point of fact...
Juggernaut's character concept evolved greatly over the first few years.
In his first battle with fuzzy Beast; his power was tied to his helmet.
In his early X-Men days; he was an arcane spell caster.
But that was a very long time ago.
And this is not what "modern" Juggernaut is (modern including the timeframe of the above mentioned battle with Thor- and pretty much everything over the past 30 years).Everything 1980's + has been very stable.
And honestly- If you back far enough in anyone's history you will find oddities.
Heck; Iron Man was able to knock out Silver Surfer with a charge attack in the 70's. Things change. Cain sure as heck did.DeFalco wrote "modern" (post 70's) Juggernaut. And he wrote him wrong.
Modern Juggernaut's invulnerability is an enchantment built into his skin.
Not his Force Field.
All the FF did for him was keep objects from touching him. It did not alter his invulnerability to damage. [/B]
More references to his force field:
http://i50.tinypic.com/dqm97k.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/29uxfus.jpg
Juggernaut’s force field has been tied to his true invulnerability since his very FIRST appearance. Can you present any scan that says otherwise? Because even after the spell casting was removed as seen under DeFalco it was his force field that granted him invulnerability. This was the case even in Marvel Icons Cyclops #1 back in 2001:
Which brings up another very interesting point. If Cyclops hadn't brought it up, you wouldn't have even thought the force field is present. Due to it's invisibility and being almost skin tight, different writers could have been taking it account and we'd never know.
Like I said, over his entire continuity, the only time he’s ever been TRULY invulnerable to high end attacks, he’s had a force field.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Juggs is also vulnerable to powerful magic. That Godblast should have knocked a bloody hole through his chest. FF or no. That is divine magic of insane proportions.
(And I get that Thor wasn't 100%... still, a Godblast is a Godblast.)
Based on what does Juggernaut have any vulnerability to magic? What scene do you have that supports their being some sort of explicit weakness to magic? If anything, he should be MORE durable to magic due to his origins. With his force field on, DeFalco considered Cain invulnerable, more so then any other writer.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
[B]On a side note:
This is likely why Marvel hasn't displayed the FF in over a decade.
Because it became an unnecessary duplication of power-set: an invulnerable being does not need a FF. It is redundant.
Thus Marvel has taken Cain's FF away."And I mean like in the 60's:"
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=14wytdl&s=6#.UqVQU-IVBfs
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=35c4m5f&s=6#.UqVQZ-IVBfsLike I said- character evolution.
Cain dropped that mantle long ago. His Respect Thread on this very Forum shows as much.
Even without his FF; Cain casually walks through titanic amounts of physical damage with no effect. [/B]
Pure speculation. It’s a forgotten ability most likely but he’s never been a truly untouchable/invulnerable being without his force field. I admit, that he most likely has a higher threshold of invulnerability then most heralds but that’s it.
I know ALL of Cain’s feats. But him walking through some decent level energy attacks hardly means he can’t be harmed, especially in a fight with someone like Thor. Thor has much better durability feats then Cain. So does Superman. Neither are treated as truly invulnerable. Here for example is a recent Thor showing:
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Newer/UncannyAvengers004-003_zpse7104ce1.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Newer/UncannyAvengers004-004_zps566aba80.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Newer/UncannyAvengers004-005_zpsdb40af28.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Newer/UncannyAvengers004-009_zpscb70d690.jpg
http://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww99/Strangerinthenight/Newer/UncannyAvengers004-010_zps5c32fa58.jpg
The difference between Thor and Juggernaut is that the above scans would be used to argue that somehow it proves Juggernaut wins a fist fight or can’t be hurt. I can’t stand double standards (Not accusing you of this btw).
Originally posted by jaxthejester
As for dying in space after an "eternity"- I don't see how this is contrary to his Invulnerability being "skin deep."
Time was his enemy- not punches.
Even Cyttorak itself is not immune to eventual entropy.Most have Plot Bomb reasons to explain them.
I'll need to hit on each incident to show where and why.Kk... let's see here...
Nightcrawler- Not sure what you are referring too. Issue #?
Captain Universe- Blew his helmet off and Psi-Blasted the hell out of him.
Storm/Spider-Woman- Is likely PIS. I need the issue # to see if Cain was weakened. I don't like to cry PIS often; but the fact is that Cain has tanked FAR worse than "Storm Class" of damage with his FF down. This event sounds like a fringe showing. Low Ball all the way. Perhaps even non-canon. Need issue #...
Nimrod- Did not physically harm Cain. He targeted his brain with Sonics and mimicked the same effect as a Psionic Attack (neural overload). The attack bypassed his body and went for the brain. Cain's brain has always been his Achilles heel. It's his Kryptonite.
Feral- Much like Nightcrawler- not sure what you are referring too...
Shatterstar- Used a magic weapon. His blades are enchanted to slice through magic barriers. They are practically custom made to carve out Cain's eye.
Onslaught- Was a reality manipulator (and a supreme psionic). His power level was high enough to be able to strip away Cain's Enchantments. And once you do that- you get "Huggernaut."
There was no entropy at play there, he just grew old after a few years. My point was that Juggernaut is physically limited to a point.
The Nightcrawler scene from X-men #102:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2qu3l8x&s=6#.UqVnpuIVBfs
Completely incorrect. Captain Universe blew his helmet off and only PROBED his mind for a weakness. Juggernaut crashed on Earth beaten black and blue and with a concussion which is not excusable by mental attacks:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37526/1510419-tasm_627023.jpg
Here is the scene, it’s from Spider-Woman #38:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2qu3l8x&s=6#.UqVnpuIVBfs
What are you talking about? It was specifically said that it was different from a psychic attack and it was concentrated sonics that caused him immense pain:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/108342/3030449-juggernaut13.jpg
Here is the scene:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109662/2147811-shatterstarvjug1.jpg
Shatterstar’s swords can cut open portals, but nowhere was it said that they have some kind of magical piercing durability. Do you have any scans to support this?
That was only Xavier/Magneto Onslaught Juggernaut faced I think and where has it EVER been said that Cain is at Huggernaut levels just because you can hurt him? Onslaught ripped through his chest with his bare hands, no other malarkey implied.
Dazzler knocked him for a loop:
http://postimg.org/image/82n2f7r9x/
http://postimg.org/image/4kb2itqdx/
It was pretty clear Decay would have killed him if he got a touch on him and Juggernaut was also hurt even by the physical attacks of the other Exemplars:
http://postimg.org/image/qsf1vyk0l/
http://postimg.org/image/93nb4c89h/
We also have Green Scar rocking him with his punches:
http://s246.photobucket.com/user/Knowsbleed33/media/Battle/WWHXmen%203/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpg.html
Merged Hulk knocking him to his feet, being stunned and hurt by a Wind Fan and more ambiguous showings such as him screaming after Deadpool dropped a set of knives on him etc. Now I’m curious, what, or any examples do you have of Juggernaut without his force field standing there and shrugging off attacks from high end beings such as Thor? The only instance I can think of was during Eighth Day and he was explicitly vastly amped in his Thor appearance for some reason.
Even in arguably his greatest power showing, Nightmare was able to hurt him:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5893/nightmarejuggernaut2.jpg
The idea the Juggernaut is completely invulnerable without his force field is unfounded and after Colossus Juggernaut (Who actually got more power then Cain from Cytorrak I believe) it's clearly nonsense.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Please do. I can always use more material for my Hulk/Juggy debates.But to be honest- the tally would be rather short; and most of the showings would have a specific reason for Cain's Invulnerability (or durability if preferred) to be lessened in said showing.
But yes; by all means list a tally. I would love to discuss them with you.
I covered most showings up above. Once again, I want to make it clear, that I realize Juggernaut has high end durability without his force field such as when he laughed off Rogue’s punch, but that doesn’t make him any different than someone like Thor or Superman. It’s only with his force field that he is TRULY invulnerable.
Man, I had to dig through a lot of comics for some of those scans. Juggernaut has very few and obscure showings. Memorize them, because I'm not doing that shit again, lol.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
On panel, it stated all magic was negated. Not just a Force Field.Claiming it was only the force field IS interpretation.
It is YOUR interpretation. And it is contrary to what is printed.
Which is the exact thing you just flung shit at me over.Reduce your hypocrisy.
It lessens you.
You need to talk less.
Here's the bottom line folks...
A). Cain's power-set IS magical energy. Nothing else. He is not a mutant. He is not a meta-human. He is not a cyborg. He's magic personified into physical form.
B). When you turn off ALL magic, you turn off Juggernaut. All that is left is a human. Period.
You cannot, by virtue of even the simplest of logical deductions, take away ALL magic and yet STILL have a "Mega Strong" foe that runs solely upon the very magic that you just removed.
C). Thus the writers screwed the pooch. Also known as PIS.
Which is why you have these "theories and interpretations."
Because the writing, which makes no sense on its own, requires them.
So what "did" happen on-panel?
Thor flung his hammer and took away ALL magic.
Then, a magical powered entity attacked Thor with incredible strength despite losing its only power source to fuel said strength.
This is not logical.
Thus we make theories.
We apply factual data to fill in the blanks and retcon the error.
Factual Data for Juggernaut:
1. His durability has been the same with and without his FF for decades.
2. When you take away his link to Cyttorak, he becomes a lesser powered version of himself (known to the fans as Huggernaut).
3. This occurs because the residual magic that has saturated Cain's cells for all of these decades leaves him with a bit of a "magic battery charge" even if you kill his power plug.
4. The resulting "Huggernaut" CAN be harmed, yet retains incredible strength.
Sound familiar? Guess what happens next:
So the writer screws up. Mixes up FF and Durability on a character's power-set.
And writes a battle that is contrary to how a character is designed.
The audience sees the screw up.
And either dismisses it as PIS. Or else tries to explain it.
A way to explain it, that fits with character design and with the last three decades of power-set continuity, is simply that the following actually occurred:
A). Thor turned off all of Cain's ties to Cyttorak. Thus blocking "ALL" magic from him.
B). The result is Cain powering down Huggernaut form.
C). Cain, having never been reduced in this manner and still having obvious mega-strength, laughs at the attempt and dives at Thor in bravado.
D). Thor, who didn't get the full expected result but still has a "now damageable foe", proceeds to slap the crap out of Cain for a minute.
E). But Cain, still being a high end Class 100 - even in Huggernaut form- manages to cling to conscience long enough last out the severance.
F). Thor's hammer returns. The severance end. Cyttorak's power supply returns. Juggs powers back up.
Now... which sounds more logical to you?
1. A magical being had all of its magic removed, yet still had magic strength?
2. A Thor writer simply screwed up a bit on the Power-Set of an X-Men rogue?
Ah... good ole' Occam's razor.
It provides a nice, clean shave. 😮💨
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Here's the bottom line folks...A). Cain's power-set IS magical energy. Nothing else. He is not a mutant. He is not a meta-human. He is not a cyborg. He's magic personified into physical form.
B). When you turn off ALL magic, you turn off Juggernaut. All that is left is a human. Period.
You cannot, by virtue of even the simplest of logical deductions, take away ALL magic and yet STILL have a "Mega Strong" foe that runs solely upon the very magic that you just removed.
C). Thus the writers screwed the pooch. Also known as PIS.
Which is why you have these "theories and interpretations."
Because the writing, which makes no sense on its own, requires them.So what "did" happen on-panel?
Thor flung his hammer and took away ALL magic.
Then, a magical powered entity attacked Thor with incredible strength despite losing its only power source to fuel said strength.This is not logical.
Thus we make theories.
We apply factual data to fill in the blanks and retcon the error.Factual Data for Juggernaut:
1. His durability has been the same with and without his FF for decades.
2. When you take away his link to Cyttorak, he becomes a lesser powered version of himself (known to the fans as Huggernaut).
3. This occurs because the residual magic that has saturated Cain's cells for all of these decades leaves him with a bit of a "magic battery charge" even if you kill his power plug.
4. The resulting "Huggernaut" CAN be harmed, yet retains incredible strength.Sound familiar? Guess what happens next:
So the writer screws up. Mixes up FF and Durability on a character's power-set.
And writes a battle that is contrary to how a character is designed.The audience sees the screw up.
And either dismisses it as PIS. Or else tries to explain it.A way to explain it, that fits with character design and with the last three decades of power-set continuity, is simply that the following actually occurred:
A). Thor turned off all of Cain's ties to Cyttorak. Thus blocking "ALL" magic from him.
B). The result is Cain powering down Huggernaut form.
C). Cain, having never been reduced in this manner and still having obvious mega-strength, laughs at the attempt and dives at Thor in bravado.
D). Thor, who didn't get the full expected result but still has a "now damageable foe", proceeds to slap the crap out of Cain for a minute.
E). But Cain, still being a high end Class 100 - even in Huggernaut form- manages to cling to conscience long enough last out the severance.
F). Thor's hammer returns. The severance end. Cyttorak's power supply returns. Juggs powers back up.Now... which sounds more logical to you?
1. A magical being had all of its magic removed, yet still had magic strength?
2. A Thor writer simply screwed up a bit on the Power-Set of an X-Men rogue?
Ah... good ole' Occam's razor.
It provides a nice, clean shave. 😮💨
Very nice breakdown. I'm a fan of your style. 👆
Originally posted by Damborgson
is he talking about Thunderbolts juggernaut? Thor broke his helmet with two shots, made him scream with lightning then shrugged off his punch. Thor was going to beat the living crap out of him if that fight went on.
Point being he was depowered in that series and Thor still couldn't drop him. I seem to recall Cain even saying he wouldn't fall when Iron Man started hitting him with that sonic attack.
If this is Juggernaut at any where near classic levels, Thor won't win with these stips.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
There was no entropy at play there, he just grew old after a few years. My point was that Juggernaut is physically limited to a point.The Nightcrawler scene from X-men #102:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2qu3l8x&s=6#.UqVnpuIVBfsCompletely incorrect. Captain Universe blew his helmet off and only PROBED his mind for a weakness. Juggernaut crashed on Earth beaten black and blue and with a concussion which is not excusable by mental attacks:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37526/1510419-tasm_627023.jpgHere is the scene, it’s from Spider-Woman #38:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2qu3l8x&s=6#.UqVnpuIVBfsWhat are you talking about? It was specifically said that it was different from a psychic attack and it was concentrated sonics that caused him immense pain:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/108342/3030449-juggernaut13.jpgHere is the scene:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/109662/2147811-shatterstarvjug1.jpgShatterstar’s swords can cut open portals, but nowhere was it said that they have some kind of magical piercing durability. Do you have any scans to support this?
That was only Xavier/Magneto Onslaught Juggernaut faced I think and where has it EVER been said that Cain is at Huggernaut levels just because you can hurt him? Onslaught ripped through his chest with his bare hands, no other malarkey implied.
Dazzler knocked him for a loop:
http://postimg.org/image/82n2f7r9x/
http://postimg.org/image/4kb2itqdx/It was pretty clear Decay would have killed him if he got a touch on him and Juggernaut was also hurt even by the physical attacks of the other Exemplars:
http://postimg.org/image/qsf1vyk0l/
http://postimg.org/image/93nb4c89h/We also have Green Scar rocking him with his punches:
http://s246.photobucket.com/user/Knowsbleed33/media/Battle/WWHXmen%203/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpg.htmlMerged Hulk knocking him to his feet, being stunned and hurt by a Wind Fan and more ambiguous showings such as him screaming after Deadpool dropped a set of knives on him etc. Now I’m curious, what, or any examples do you have of Juggernaut without his force field standing there and shrugging off attacks from high end beings such as Thor? The only instance I can think of was during Eighth Day and he was explicitly vastly amped in his Thor appearance for some reason.
Even in arguably his greatest power showing, Nightmare was able to hurt him:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5893/nightmarejuggernaut2.jpgThe idea the Juggernaut is completely invulnerable without his force field is unfounded and after Colossus Juggernaut (Who actually got more power then Cain from Cytorrak I believe) it's clearly nonsense.
I covered most showings up above. Once again, I want to make it clear, that I realize Juggernaut has high end durability without his force field such as when he laughed off Rogue’s punch, but that doesn’t make him any different than someone like Thor or Superman. It’s only with his force field that he is TRULY invulnerable.
Man, I had to dig through a lot of comics for some of those scans. Juggernaut has very few and obscure showings. Memorize them, because I'm not doing that shit again, lol.
Nice debating, Rage. You haven't lost your touch. ; )
It's 1am here and sleep calls. I'll try to hit this tomorrow.
As it stands; I can see our variance of opinion is based on Cain's power-set at its core, and not really this fight with Thor at all.
Which simplifies things quite a bit. I'll dig up a few scans of my own.
This should be fun.
Chat atcha tomorrow. 😎
