Dr. Manhattan vs. THANOS

Originally posted by h1a8
Well obviously he said it wasn't canon for good reason. Also I already pointed out that it contradicts the original. What more do you want?

Well, the writer of Before Watchmen (Straczynski), the artist AND the editor (Wein, who also worked on the original Watchmen) in addition to the rest of the editorial staff at DC think it IS canon...so you'd have to prove me wrong, by showing something from the head honchos at DC saying that it ISN'T canon to Watchmen.

It's called a retcon, we use the most current incarnations etc etc. Take your pick, its a losing battle you're fighting. But if fight you must, then so be it. As I really don't have the appetite for a long drawn out fight, if you insist on sticking by your point then a mod will have to be pulled in.

Originally posted by Magnon
"Two seconds from now. The Titan raises his hand and releases a stream of cosmic energy at me. I let it pass through me while I observe my opponent for a moment. He yells at me in frustration. A powerful mutant eternal, and an exceptional intellect -- an intellect striving for nihilism and death. One more second passes. I switch off the interactions which hold his form together, granting him his wish for death."

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, the writer of Before Watchmen (Straczynski), the artist AND the editor (Wein, who also worked on the original Watchmen) in addition to the rest of the editorial staff at DC think it IS canon...so you'd have to prove me wrong, by showing something from the head honchos at DC saying that it ISN'T canon to Watchmen.

It's called a retcon, we use the most current incarnations etc etc. Take your pick, its a losing battle you're fighting. But if fight you must, then so be it. As I really don't have the appetite for a long drawn out fight, if you insist on sticking by your point then a mod will have to be pulled in.

We have writer/editor clearly stating it is not canon. We have contradictions (not retcons).
That's the end of it. We can get a mod if you want as I see both what the editor said and the contradictions we get prove it.

Originally posted by h1a8
Contradictions are not retcons. Retcons changes things without creating contradictions.

We have writer/editor clearly stating it is not canon. We have contradictions (not retcons).
That's the end of it. We can get a mod if you want as I see both what the editor said and the contradictions we get prove it.

Gibbons wasn't the editor...he was the artist. Len Wein was the editor. Please stop lying.

And Len Wein ALSO worked on Before Watchmen. SO he must have liked what he saw.

Originally posted by h1a8
It talks about draining their power too (not completely). I think volume 4. I'll try to find it when I get time. Then why does Thanos currently uses tech to teleport and why doesn't he teleport anymore since forever? Aren't current characters argued?

Because how he was wrote he has appeared in Thànos Imperdtive in which he used tech then against the Avengers in Bendis run he didn't use tech , and then in Infinty he just used his space craft which he has always done .

No we use their entire history of showings

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Gibbons wasn't the editor...he was the artist. Len Wein was the editor. Please stop lying.

And Len Wein ALSO worked on Before Watchmen. SO he must have liked what he saw.

Again, h1a8, your ignorance is excusable. Your arrogance, however, isn't.

You continually get things - basic things - wrong. So far, in the past two pages, I have called you out first on your own recollection of what you yourself typed. And now your assertion that the editor of Watchmen 'clearly stated it is not canon'. When Len Wein never said anything of the sort.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Again, h1a8, your ignorance is excusable. Your arrogance, however, isn't.

You continually get things - basic things - wrong. So far, in the past two pages, I have called you out first on your own recollection of what you yourself typed. And now your assertion that the editor of Watchmen 'clearly stated it is not canon'. When Len Wein never said anything of the sort.

The point is moot since Thanos can't do jack shit to DM. DM would just reform over and over. DM would just keep duplicating over and over or grow to ridiculous sizes. DM would eventually win because he would find a way (atomizing Thanos, teleporting his head off, teleporting him to a black hole over and over until Thanos is dead or koed)

Thanos rage stomps Manhattan for the pure joy of it

Originally posted by the Darkone
Thanos rage stomps Manhattan for the pure joy of it

Thanos can't do jack shit to DM. DM would just reform over and over. DM would just keep duplicating over and over or grow to ridiculous sizes. DM would eventually win because he would find a way (atomizing Thanos, teleporting his head off, teleporting him to a black hole over and over until Thanos is dead or koed)

Originally posted by h1a8
He and Alan were the creators of the original.
Again retcons changes things without creating a contradiction.
How do we know if a comic is non canon?
Because it creates a contradiction with continuity.
Thus those comics can't be canon. Dave Gibbons confirms it. I'm not arrogant. I always admitted I'm wrong when I clearly saw it. It didn't hurt me one bit to do it. Actually it makes me feel good. Meaning, I wish I was wrong buddy.

The point is moot since Thanos can't do jack shit to DM. DM would just reform over and over. DM would just keep duplicating over and over or grow to ridiculous sizes. DM would eventually win because he would find a way (atomizing Thanos, teleporting his head off, teleporting him to a black hole over and over until Thanos is dead or koed)

OK, so when you said:

I see both what the editor said

You can back it up with proof? Please show me an interview with the EDITOR please.

In the interests of fairness, h1a8, I have messaged Pr. Below is my message, let me know if I have left anything out or misrepresented anything:

[quote]
-Pr- wrote on Dec 21st, 2013 12:17 AM:
I haven't read it, so I may need some clarification on the arguments.

OK. I didn't want to influence you by giving more info, hence the sparse message.

My argument stems from the Dr Manhattan vs threads, where h1a8 said that since Dr Manhattan can see into the future, he will be able to avoid any attack.

My position is that Dr. Manhattan does NOT do this in battle (he's not Mr X or the Midnighter, using a battle computer). Moreover, in Before Watchmen, Dr. M explicitly states he doesn't want to change the future, based on his experiences. I then used two scans from Before Watchmen:

1st, he starts creating splinter universes:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/BeforeWatchmenDrManhattan003-Zone-005_zpsfe3dae29.jpg

in other words, the original timeline - in this case, the one where Thanos punches him in the blue dong - still exists. Him changing the future merely creates a second universe where he doesn't get punched.

2nd, he himself does not want to change the future (so am arguing the in character rule):

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/BeforeWatchmen-DrManhattan004-010_zpsd5c67138.jpg

Now, h1a8's arguments are based on two things:

1. It contradicts Alan Moore's original, where he could see the future, and could change it. Hence the need for Ozy to use his tachyon machine to cloud his vision. You've seen the scans, so no need to put them here.

2. Gibbons (the artist) and Moore have both come out and said it is not canon. I do not dispute this.

With regards to the 1st argument, my rebuttal is that this happens all the time, and we take the most recent depiction. Even more so with Dr M, as his past is his future is his present. In addition, Before Watchmen ended with an epilogue AFTER the events of Watchmen, so chronologically, the characters it depicts come after the 1980s Watchmen.

With regards to the 2nd, well, we all know about Moore and his views on companies taking his properties. Len Wein, the original editor of Watchmen, also worked on Before Watchmen, so presumably it has his blessing. Not to mention, if we were to go down this route, then all of Superman's feats after Siegel/Shuster (who also fought DC) are all inapplicable. Ultimately, I don't think Gibbons' views matter, when DC own the characters.[/quote]

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In the interests of fairness, h1a8, I have messaged Pr. Below is my message, let me know if I have left anything out or misrepresented anything:

OK. I didn't want to influence you by giving more info, hence the sparse message.

My argument stems from the Dr Manhattan vs threads, where h1a8 said that since Dr Manhattan can see into the future, he will be able to avoid any attack.

My position is that Dr. Manhattan does NOT do this in battle (he's not Mr X or the Midnighter, using a battle computer). Moreover, in Before Watchmen, Dr. M explicitly states he doesn't want to change the future, based on his experiences. I then used two scans from Before Watchmen:

1st, he starts creating splinter universes:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/BeforeWatchmenDrManhattan003-Zone-005_zpsfe3dae29.jpg

in other words, the original timeline - in this case, the one where Thanos punches him in the blue dong - still exists. Him changing the future merely creates a second universe where he doesn't get punched.

2nd, he himself does not want to change the future (so am arguing the in character rule):

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/qwirtle/BeforeWatchmen-DrManhattan004-010_zpsd5c67138.jpg

Now, h1a8's arguments are based on two things:

1. It contradicts Alan Moore's original, where he could see the future, and could change it. Hence the need for Ozy to use his tachyon machine to cloud his vision. You've seen the scans, so no need to put them here.

2. Gibbons (the artist) and Moore have both come out and said it is not canon. I do not dispute this.

With regards to the 1st argument, my rebuttal is that this happens all the time, and we take the most recent depiction. Even more so with Dr M, as his past is his future is his present. In addition, Before Watchmen ended with an epilogue AFTER the events of Watchmen, so chronologically, the characters it depicts come after the 1980s Watchmen.

With regards to the 2nd, well, we all know about Moore and his views on companies taking his properties. Len Wein, the original editor of Watchmen, also worked on Before Watchmen, so presumably it has his blessing. Not to mention, if we were to go down this route, then all of Superman's feats after Siegel/Shuster (who also fought DC) are all inapplicable. Ultimately, I don't think Gibbons' views matter, when DC own the characters.

2. Before Watchmen was a [b]PREQUEL. That means it can't retcon what comes after. What comes after in continuity is what retcons what came before. So the original stories were last, by continuity.

Still waiting my answer h1 and don't say to what troll

Originally posted by h1a8
1. Let me ask you something. What makes a comic non canon? How do we know a comic isn't canon?

2. Before Watchmen was a [b]PREQUEL. That means it can't retcon what comes after. What comes after in continuity is what retcons what came before. So the original stories were last, by continuity. [/B]

Except DM doesn't perceive time that way, plus, Before Watchmen ends with an EPILOGUE after Watchmen. That means it comes after. In any case, focus on Insane Titan's request. I do not have the appetite for a long drawn out war, hence the request to a mod.

the good doctor gets castrated.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
DM sees the past: "I feel nothing."
DM sees the present: "This big musculare half-mutant half-eternal is coming toward me. He wants to fight me."

DM sees the future: "God it's hurt. Oh my ****ing God it's hurt. The ******* is laughing. Better stay dead and don't comeback until he leaves."

Now that was Epic

Originally posted by Silent Master
1) He still has the ability to port without using tech
2) Sure you are, you're trying to take away powers that Thanos actually has.
3) DM has never done so to matter that is as durable as Thanos, so you have no proof that he can remove Thanos' head.

Wtf does durability have to do with pulling something apart at the molecular level? That's the whole reason Magneto can manipulate adamantium despite its durability.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Still waiting my answer h1 and don't say to what troll

Evidence that teleporting drains energy

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/8030/9n41.jpg

So Thanos would teleport in every forum fight (under his own power) in mid battle to avoid attacks although he hasn't teleported in many years and although he apparently uses tech to do it (because it is unpleasant and robs him of energy)? That's good to know.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except DM doesn't perceive time that way, plus, Before Watchmen ends with an [b]EPILOGUE after Watchmen. That means it comes after. In any case, focus on Insane Titan's request. I do not have the appetite for a long drawn out war, hence the request to a mod. [/B]

Originally posted by h1a8
How can a prequel come after? All the books takes place before the storyline of the watchmen even begins. The only thing that coincides with the watchmen story line is that last page of BeforeWatchmen: Doctor Manhattan. It shows DM creating life like he said he would in the original comics. You are using evidence that occurred BEFORE the story, which contradicts the story, though. I'm using evidence that occurred while the story is going on (which is later).

OK. We're just going in circles, so let's wait.