Marvel to take over SW comics in 2015

Marvel Comis Takes Over Star Wars in 2015

Can't say I'm surprised, but I am a little disappointed. Means Legacy 2 will probably only last two years total (though with enough warning to wrap things up!) and Dawn of the Jedi will likely have only one more arc if that.

DarK Horse is going to be a very tough act to follow after putting out the most consistently-good SW material for years (and often the best SF comics coming out in the US period). Here's hoping Marvel can manage or, better yet, hoping they hire some of the same writers Dark Horse did.

I remain skeptical. Look at what a cock-up the superhero-verse is at Marvel.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I remain skeptical. Look at what a cock-up the superhero-verse is at Marvel.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I remain skeptical. Look at what a cock-up the superhero-verse is at Marvel.

They're much, much better at planning and organizing a comic universe than DC.

But, that is compared to DC, of course. Compared to Dark Horse which so consistently produces great work? Skepticism is warranted.

So I guess it's just a matter of time before we get Sith Lords vs the X-Men.

Originally posted by Q99
They're much, much better at planning and organizing a comic universe than DC.

But, that is compared to DC, of course. Compared to Dark Horse which so consistently produces great work? Skepticism is warranted.

lol. Dark Horse don't produce anything anywhere near the level of quality that Marvel does, let alone DC, if the SW comics are anything to go by.

Originally posted by Q99
They're much, much better at planning and organizing a comic universe than DC.

But, that is compared to DC, of course. Compared to Dark Horse which so consistently produces great work? Skepticism is warranted.

DC is just shitty anyways. The only reason why I know DC characters is because they eventually get movies. Otherwise, I wouldn't have the first clue.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
lol. Dark Horse don't produce anything anywhere near the level of quality that Marvel does, let alone DC, if the SW comics are anything to go by.

Leaving aside the more mature, cerebral storylines of the early '90s X-Men and the pretty awesome until it jumped the shark X-Men 2099, this is largely untrue.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
lol. Dark Horse don't produce anything anywhere near the level of quality that Marvel does, let alone DC, if the SW comics are anything to go by.

Take it you don't know dark horse much?

Hellboy is, I would say, probably their highest-quality line. Usagi Yojimbo's a very good long-runner too. The Knights of the Old Republic comic was fantastic, and so were a fair number of other SW titles, of which Legacy 2 is currently my favorite, but they've got the Lucas Draft and the Brian Wood book as well, and Dawn of the Jedi. I'd take any of the SW books over pretty much any random DC book.

In terms of quality books, there's a lot of competition right now. Marvel is, of course, huge, so has more books periods, so even though there's a good number of mediocre, they've got plenty of good ones (Mark Waid's Daredevil is fantastic. Hawkeye. FF. I'm a fan of Captain Marvel, Scarlet Spider, and Red She-Hulk too). Image has Saga (best space opera out there) and Walking Dead (if you're into zombies). Dark Horse has the aforementioned.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
DC is just shitty anyways. The only reason why I know DC characters is because they eventually get movies. Otherwise, I wouldn't have the first clue.

I liked it before the current editorial regime, but in the last few years it's been a litany of writers being swapped out or quitting, complains of extensive last-minute editoral changes preventing writers from using their talent, a lack of planning visibly transparent with hyped-up new story lines and 'this new character is really important' characters being dropped with zero resolution on a regular basis. And every time they swap writers they swap directions, so you've got tons of 6-12 month runs who's stories were just cut off. Heck, Batwoman's writers were recently unceremoniously dropped off due to editorial wanting to change multiple key moments in the climax of their 25 issue run (remove an origin, change the story ending, and don't allow the heroine who proposed in the comic to marry. All previously-approved elements)... and the writers last issue ended on a cliffhanger, which the new writer did not pick up from.

Even if you find something you like at DC, it won't get a conclusion.

Really, all the big companies have access to much of the same good writers, it's in how you manage them. And with DC's management, you aren't missing much.

To be fair I wouldn't say what you're describing is anywhere near as prevalent as you're making it out to be, and only really applies to the mid to low tier series DC produces (and I agree that both the big two produce their fair share of mediocre works as well). When it comes to DC's good stuff however, there isn't a single SW comic that even comes close. The KOTOR, Legacy and Dawn of the Jedi series are good but hardly spectacular and I'd go as far as saying that the Brian Wood series, original draft adaptation and the Old Republic tie-ins are quite simply bad. Meanwhile the likes of Wonder Woman, Batman, Batman Incorporated, Superman Unchained, Grant Morrison's run on Action Comics, Aquaman, Geoff John's Justice League stuff and the conclusion to his Green Lantern run, Green Arrow since Jeff Lemire took over, Swamp Thing, Animal Man, Dial H, I, Vampire, Forever Evil and bits of Justice League Dark, Constantine, Phantom Stranger and Pandora have all been as good as comics get and some of the best stuff released over the past few years. The SW stuff isn't remotely in the same league.

Edit - Marvel and DC have accoss to the same level of talent for the most part (though I'd give DC the edge for sure) but the other companies, while having access to some top writers, don't have access to the same quantity of top tier talent. The only truly great writer by today's standards that's worked on a SW comic in the past few years is Brian Wood, and I'd argue his Star War series is by far among his weakest work, it's literally shockingly bad.

Astor
To be fair I wouldn't say what you're describing is anywhere near as prevalent as you're making it out to be, and only really applies to the mid to low tier series DC produces (and I agree that both the big two produce their fair share of mediocre works as well).

Nooo, George Perez, writer and artist of Crisis on Infinite Earths, quit Superman 6 months after the reboot due to meddling.

After Morrison's Action Comic run, they hired a writer and artist team to take the next run, Andy Diggle and Tony Bedard as the full time team. Due to editorial issues, Diggle quit *before his run started*, and Tony Bedard was slated to just take over... and he rapidly announced he'd do just three issues and quite.

And that's Superman.

Green Lantern also had a case where the post-Geoff Johns writer quit before they even started because their story arc was approved, he worked on scripts, then significant alterations were required (including 'tossing in' the death of John Stewart, something they backpeddled on) and he just threw his hands up and quit.

DC is a company that's basically surviving off the backs of a few authors with high selling books (Scott Snyder, Geoff Johns) because their other writers have to put up with meddling, sometimes in very unprofessional amounts.

There was a writer a few months back that swore off the big two, saying, to paraphrase, "DC treats it's writers like crap and is a horrible place to work! .... oh, and marvel is very story-arc focused, which is fine for some, but it's not my thing, y'know?". The contrast was striking.

The KOTOR, Legacy and Dawn of the Jedi series are good but hardly spectacular

KotoR, not spectacular? Not according to most fans I've talked to. The first arc is really terrific stuff that captures the Star Wars feel better than the wide majority of SW stories.

Legacy's more love-it-or-hate-it, Cade gets mixed reactions but it has great setting.

and I'd go as far as saying that the Brian Wood series, original draft adaptation and the Old Republic tie-ins are quite simply bad.

.... have you considered you may simply have poor taste? The Wood series opened to great reviews and is a female-lead book outselling Wonder Woman.

And speaking of Wonder Woman...

Meanwhile the likes of Wonder Woman,

Are you talking about the one where the main character somehow grew up into her 20s without knowing how her culture reproduces and somehow managed to be at a 180 from her culture on the subjects of rape, murder, and slavery, and has all of her female power-sources and role models replaced with male ones?

I mean, it has good writing in *some* respect, but post-reboot WW does not have issues, it has catalogs.

Justice League, does alright in sales but it's flashy, not deep. Haven't seen much praise on it's story lines, most of the DC fans I know aren't fans of it. Doesn't help that they threw Cyborg in for diversity and didn't use him.

Aquaman, Action Comics, Lemire GA, Batman, sure, those are nice book, but I wouldn't count a number of ones you listed as 'great' ('Forever Evil'? C'mon).

DC is a big company so despite it's issues it has some good books, good writers who manage to avoid the editorial eye will manage some things, but it is a company with problems, and is doing worse than Marvel right now for very, very clear reasons.

Judging by your lineup, you sound like you like the dark/supernatural stuff. The Animal Man, Swamp Thing, etc.. Keep in mind when talking SW books, they aren't supposed to be that way and have a very different tone. Good SW books may simply be very much different taste than yours.

And if one does like supernatural dark stuff, Dark Horse has Hellboy and BRPD anyway.

Sure, I like Animal Man and Swamp Thing simply because I like dark/supernatural stuff, nevermind that they've been among the best reviewed comicbooks released since The New 52's inception or are fantastically plotted by two of the most highly regarded writers in comics today, or that I mentioned numerous titles that don't fit that description. Compare the critical reception of Animal Man and Swamp Thing to Hellboy and BRPD over the past few years and tell me they're even remotely comparable in terms of quality. You, sir, are quite simply delusional if you truly believe that any Star Wars comic measures up favourably against the top stuff produced by DC that I mentioned, stuff written by the likes of Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns, Scott Snyder, Jeff Lemire, Brian Azzarello, etc. that are among the critically most well received books being published every year. I'm aware of the editorial controversies but as I said when it comes to the absolute best stuff that DC produces, it doesn't seem to have been a factor and is largely irrelevant. Likewise your complaints regarding Wonder Woman, while arguably fair, are in the grand scheme of things inconsequential and do little to detract from everything else that the series does right.

Justice League was only mediocre in the first six issues, the crossover with Aquaman was fantastic, as was the build up to Trinity War and its involvement in the big events since. I slotted Forever Evil and I, Vampire in at the end and had meant to say that they were in parts fantastic, as they have been, along with the likes of Phantom Stranger and JLD.

I will note I originally comparing them to Marvel, and noting DH's consistency.

DC does have some good authors who produce great books (and I find even some of Geoff John's lacking. Post-reboot Hal is too much of a jerk, and not the fun kind of jerk like Guy, etc.), but only allows a few of them free reign.

And Dark Horse's output is, as I said, far more consistent. DC has no idea how to purposefully make a good book, they just luck into it.

Dark Horse's worst Star Wars book in the last decade is... well, I'm not sure, none stick in my mind as very bad. Maybe one of the star wars tales...? Or possibly a Boba Fett book I haven't read...? On the critically acclaimed side, Brian Wood is, as I've mentioned, a majorly critically acclaimed big name author who I'm surprised you give so little credit to. Heck, I don't even *like* him and I still admit that.

And note, for DH I'm using 'decade'. For the next two, I shall use 'two years.'

Marvel's worse stuff currently is, merely nothing to write home about, but I can't think of anything that's aggressively bad (extend to decade and it'd get Red Hulk, Ultimatum, OMD, etc., but thankfully those are in the past). And they have a long rack of critically acclaimed comics right now (some of which have very long runs as a bonus. There's more of Mark Waid's Daredevil than any two, maybe three of the ones you've listed!), so they don't lose out to DC there.

DC's worst stuff.... well, you've got books that have had three or four writers in 2 years, with a new direction with each writer, and in multiple cases at least one of those writers is Rob Liefeld. Their Static Shock was a bad joke (it turned out the editor and the artist worked together to cut out the original writer!), their Blue Beetle removed almost everything fun about it, pre-Lemire Green Arrow was weak sauce, Justice League Dark's first writer thought it was a good idea to waste the second issue breaking up a relationship that had no reason to exist in the reboot, Superman/WW seems mainly focused on showing how great Superman is and not portraying them very well as partners or having much in the way of romance, you get the idea.

Grab a random Marvel book and you run a risk of getting "eh," and a good chance of "this is really awesome!". DC book, you've got a chance of awesome, but you also run a chance of getting a real stinker. Dark Horse book, and while there's fewer "this is really awesome!", if you don't get "awesome," you get, "Hey, this is pretty good." That's consistency.

Likewise your complaints regarding Wonder Woman, while arguably fair, are in the grand scheme of things inconsequential and do little to detract from everything else that the series does right.

Oh, I've got more. The book is really much more of a Greek God, or "Wondy's Friends" book rather than a Wonder Woman book. While she's got a central role, she has very little development focused on her and a reader doesn't particularly know her all that much better now than we did 4 issues in.

Also somewhat on the sex issue front, but not just that, it has Wondy mysteriously putting up with the sexist Orion slapping her butt, abd includes bizarre moments like when he's being rude she decides to kiss him before punching him. Now obviously, that goes on the catalog side, but aside from that, leaves one wondering, "Why is she responding that way?", which is not something one should be wondering on the main character of a book.

Then there's the side issue that it's almost a separate continuity than WW in the other books. Relationship with Superman that has it's own title? What's that?

(And, speaking as a WW fan, it doesn't do much that hasn't been done before. Whenever people say they find the focus on mythology and monsters a 'new take,' I chuckle)

Even putting aside the gender issues, I simply think Wood's Star Wars is a superior book to WW that handles it's characters better, and ditto KotoR too, who's Zayne is a very compelling hero.

Compare the critical reception of Animal Man and Swamp Thing to Hellboy and BRPD over the past few years and tell me they're even remotely comparable in terms of quality.

Hellboy and BRPD are preeeetty high up in critical reception, actually... so yea, I'd take that comparison. Granted, some of the best stories tend to be earlier on, but there's some good HB/BRPD stuff recently too.

Didn't WW threaten to rip Orions balls off after he slapped her butt?

DC is currently kicking Marvel's ass IMO. But both have comics vastly more entertaining than anything Dark Horse is currently putting out.

I can only see this as a good move for SW comics which, for the most part, have been very sub-par recently.

Yeah, I'm torn personally. The last truly decent star wars comic series to come out, imo, was KOTOR.

But on the other hand, Marvel has done absolutely zero to impress me since Civil War. Not a damn thing.

Are you including Civil War itself in that?

I hear Young Loki was pretty dang awesome.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't WW threaten to rip Orions balls off after he slapped her butt?

Nope, different occasion. And the ball-one was after a kiss... for some reason.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Are you including Civil War itself in that?

I hear Young Loki was pretty dang awesome.

Civil War was 7 years ago.

Young Loki was indeed awesome.

One of the odd things about Marvel is their events tend not to be great (even the not bad ones don't leap out at me), but the follow-up to the events is almost always top notch. CW, for example, while it was crap, Avengers Initiative, The Order, the New Avengers/Mighty Avengers split, was all good stuff. Secret Invasion's follow ups were pretty interesting. Siege had Kid Loki and the Heroic Age. And with the X-men, the whole 'moving to California, then Utopia, then living on it,' cycle was very interesting.

I will note I originally comparing them to Marvel, and noting DH's consistency.

DC does have some good authors who produce great books (and I find even some of Geoff John's lacking. Post-reboot Hal is too much of a jerk, and not the fun kind of jerk like Guy, etc.), but only allows a few of them free reign.

And Dark Horse's output is, as I said, far more consistent. DC has no idea how to purposefully make a good book, they just luck into it.

Dark Horse's worst Star Wars book in the last decade is... well, I'm not sure, none stick in my mind as very bad. Maybe one of the star wars tales...? Or possibly a Boba Fett book I haven't read...? On the critically acclaimed side, Brian Wood is, as I've mentioned, a majorly critically acclaimed big name author who I'm surprised you give so little credit to. Heck, I don't even *like* him and I still admit that.

And note, for DH I'm using 'decade'. For the next two, I shall use 'two years.'

Marvel's worse stuff currently is, merely nothing to write home about, but I can't think of anything that's aggressively bad (extend to decade and it'd get Red Hulk, Ultimatum, OMD, etc., but thankfully those are in the past). And they have a long rack of critically acclaimed comics right now (some of which have very long runs as a bonus. There's more of Mark Waid's Daredevil than any two, maybe three of the ones you've listed!), so they don't lose out to DC there.

DC's worst stuff.... well, you've got books that have had three or four writers in 2 years, with a new direction with each writer, and in multiple cases at least one of those writers is Rob Liefeld. Their Static Shock was a bad joke (it turned out the editor and the artist worked together to cut out the original writer!), their Blue Beetle removed almost everything fun about it, pre-Lemire Green Arrow was weak sauce, Justice League Dark's first writer thought it was a good idea to waste the second issue breaking up a relationship that had no reason to exist in the reboot, Superman/WW seems mainly focused on showing how great Superman is and not portraying them very well as partners or having much in the way of romance, you get the idea.

Grab a random Marvel book and you run a risk of getting "eh," and a good chance of "this is really awesome!". DC book, you've got a chance of awesome, but you also run a chance of getting a real stinker. Dark Horse book, and while there's fewer "this is really awesome!", if you don't get "awesome," you get, "Hey, this is pretty good." That's consistency.

Given that I simply choose to not read the bad stuff I don't particularly concern myself with the lows, it's the highs that matter and DC regularly reach far greater heights than Dark Horse could ever hope to.

Oh, I've got more. The book is really much more of a Greek God, or "Wondy's Friends" book rather than a Wonder Woman book. While she's got a central role, she has very little development focused on her and a reader doesn't particularly know her all that much better now than we did 4 issues in.

The ensemble cast is one of the book's best features and something a lot of people who read the book love about it, and the sense of family is something that is quite touching. It's part of what makes this the best Wonder Woman series there's ever been. It might not be to your liking but it isn't an objective criticism of the book. As for Wonder Woman, her character goes through a lot, even if she doesn't necessarily change too much (which is by no means neccessarily a bad thing) and is absolutely central to both the world building and the drama.

Also somewhat on the sex issue front, but not just that, it has Wondy mysteriously putting up with the sexist Orion slapping her butt,

Or rather, was interrupted by a panicked Zola as she was about to say/do something about it.

abd includes bizarre moments like when he's being rude she decides to kiss him before punching him.

Grabbing his balls as you later recognised, and by kissing him she was a) playing along with him, lulling him into a false sense of security, and making the ball grab more impactful and shocking by the stark contrast of the kiss. Grabbing somebody's balls is simply far more painful and demeaning when you do so after giving them a gigantic boner.

Even putting aside the gender issues, I simply think Wood's Star Wars is a superior book to WW that handles it's characters better, and ditto KotoR too, who's Zayne is a very compelling hero.

Holy shit... 🤨

What next? Are you going to suggest that it's superior to the likes of Sandman, Hellblazer or Lucifer?

Jesus I didn't realise that Dark Horse had fanboys.

Hellboy and BRPD are preeeetty high up in critical reception, actually... so yea, I'd take that comparison. Granted, some of the best stories tend to be earlier on, but there's some good HB/BRPD stuff recently too.

"Over the past few years", which was the period over which I was comparing them to, I don't think you would take that comparison, given that Animal Man and Swamp Thing have been some of the critically most well received books and Hellboy and BRPD have been incredibly non-descript. I don't care about their reception ten years ago when I'm talking about what I'd rather read now.

Aston

It's part of what makes this the best Wonder Woman series there's ever been.

Best WW run would either be Greg Rucka's run and Gail Simone's run, both of which outdo it pretty solidly.

They develop Diana better, have great stories, and manage without massive plotholes like "Just how does one end up ignorant of one's own culture?".

Holy shit...

What next? Are you going to suggest that it's superior to the likes of Sandman, Hellblazer or Lucifer?

Jesus I didn't realise that Dark Horse had fanboys.

😬

Look, your low opinion of the SW comics is not universal, nor your high opinion of the current WW one. I don't feel that the current WW book has developed her, and I've seen multiple other people express the same sentiments and quit reading as a result.

Knights does a very good job of making you emphasizing with the characters and developing them. It's no Sandman or Lucifer (not to mention it's an *adventure* comic and those two aren't, different genres), but Azzarello's WW isn't worth mentioning in the same breath as those anyway, not even close, so so what?

Dark Horse isn't my favorite company and Star Wars isn't my favorite line nor even my favorite DH line, but credit where credit is due.

"Over the past few years", which was the period over which I was comparing them to, I don't think you would take that comparison, given that Animal Man and Swamp Thing have been some of the critically most well received books and Hellboy and BRPD have been incredibly non-descript.

'Non-descript?' Hellboy's won a dozen awards including multiple Eisners (BRPD won an Eisner in '09, HB won Project Fanboy awards for best indy hero/character the same year. There was a Best Story award for HB not long before that... there's quite a list, in short), and Alan Moore personally recommends it.

I think you're confusing 'you personally like more' with 'more critically acclaimed'. You're going to be hard pressed to find a more critically acclaimed series than Hellboy that's in print.

I also think you disproportionately weigh things more towards the horror side and give lighter adventure too little credit. Just because something is lighter fair, doesn't mean it doesn't have more developed main characters.

Best WW run would either be Greg Rucka's run and Gail Simone's run, both of which outdo it pretty solidly.

They develop Diana better, have great stories, and manage without massive plotholes like "Just how does one end up ignorant of one's own culture?".

Their runs were great, especially Rucka's, but Azzarello's is better.

The plotting and scheming of the Gods interspersed among prophecies about First Borns and Last Borns and Old Gods and New Gods all make for some really intruiging stuff and the story also has far more of an epic feel than previous Wonder Woman books, such as

Spoiler:
the moment when she removes her cuffs in issue 12 and turns into a major badass, or when she kills Ares and becomes the new God of War in issue 23

She remained ignorant of that one facet of her culture because, clearly they are very secretive and don't talk openly about it and according to Hephaestus, they only do it three times every century; I'd imagine they don't inform the younger generation of the practise until they feel they are ready, and then it may only be a small portion of them that are picked (and Diana's integration with the outside world would probably have menat that she may have never been informed of it). So it fully makes sense that she would remain ignorant of that element of her culture. Not a plothole in the slightest.

Look, your low opinion of the SW comics is not universal, nor your high opinion of the current WW one. I don't feel that the current WW book has developed her, and I've seen multiple other people express the same sentiments and quit reading as a result.

My opinion of the WW book is near universal you'll find among critics and the people who read the book. It's the minority that don't like the new series, a vocal minority but a minority nonetheless, and like you I suspect fans of the older Wonder Woman books that don't like the new (and better) direction the book's going in. Comicbook characters, in many cases, are very clearly defined and set in their ways and not supposed to change. Would you criticise a Batman book because his character doesn't develop over the course of the series?

I don't think you would find many that would label the SW comics as spectacular in the grand scheme of things or compare them favourably to the top comics released by the big two.

Knights does a very good job of making you emphasizing with the characters and developing them. It's no Sandman or Lucifer (not to mention it's an *adventure* comic and those two aren't, different genres), but Azzarello's WW isn't worth mentioning in the same breath as those anyway, not even close, so so what?

lol, genre has nothing to do with it. Azzarello's WW certainly isn't in the same league of those series (few are) but it possesses the same characteristic that they do, in being in many, many leagues beyond any Star Wars comic.

'Non-descript?' Hellboy's won a dozen awards including multiple Eisners (BRPD won an Eisner in '09, HB won Project Fanboy awards for best indy hero/character the same year. There was a Best Story award for HB not long before that... there's quite a list, in short), and Alan Moore personally recommends it.

Again, this all relates to a time before the one I'm forming the comparison over. Since The New 52's inception, they have been pretty non-descript while Swamp Thing and Animal Man have been considered some of the best books released and really helped establish Jeff Lemire, if not Scott Snyder, as one of DC's very best writers.

As great as Batman Incorporated was, I wouldn't use the far greater acclaim of Grant Morrison's Batman run circa 2009 as evidence for how well it was received during The New 52, which hasn't been as great, though still very good (and in some cases, for example the ending, a little misunderstood).

I also think you disproportionately weigh things more towards the horror side and give lighter adventure too little credit. Just because something is lighter fair, doesn't mean it doesn't have more developed main characters.

Which is why I included Geoff Johns' work on my list, whose Justice League you criticised for not being deep interestingly enough.