Superman vs. Ghost Rider

Originally posted by NemeBro
It destroyed her mask and made her suffer sensory overload.

A falling exploding oil rig is far more damaging than an anti-tank missile, and that was before he came into his full power. You know, when he could withstand the explosion of the World Engine without any lasting harm.

The vast majority of Metropolis' destruction was wrought by Zod's ship, not their fight, and even then the vast bulk of the damage caused by the fight proper was caused by... Zod. Oh well shit, it looks like your point has no merit whatsoever.

He won't be "hilariously outmatched" by Rider, he's going to beat him to to the ground without any effort whatsoever.

Lawl.

Tell that to Goyer, who clearly believes that their fight caused enormous collateral damage, in terms of both property and lives.

Based on nothing whatsoever. The moment he gets close(which he inevitably will), he'll get his soul barbequed.

Zod told that took the advantage of a temporary weakness after Faora was KOED.

Any version of Superman here could pull Gr head off before PS takes place imo.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Considering that a missile KO'd Faora and an oil rig KO'd Superman, nope.

They died as a result of their fight. The blame lies on both.

It's not proven that it doesn't work on the good. And even if you feel the slightest ounce of guilt, you don't count as "good" in the eyes of the Rider. Superman fought her in close quarters initially. It was only after he realized how hilariously outmatched he was in h2h that he tried to put some distance between both of them. With the Rider, he won't get a second chance.

Faora was hurt by the sensory overload like Zod was when Superman damaged his helmet, not by the explosion itself.

The blame lies on the man who intended to make Clark suffer through Metropolis' destruction. You forget that Superman tried to take the fight into space one point. He clearly wanted to avoid collateral damage. He simply had no choice, but to fight and defeat Zod as quickly as he could.

Come on, we both know Superman is far to fast for GR to lock the PS in on Superman. If it worked so fast he would have used it on all of his opponents. That's assuming it even works on Superman. And what happens if Supes attacks Ghost Rider from behind?

Originally posted by Psychotron
Faora was hurt by the sensory overload like Zod was when Superman damaged his helmet, not by the explosion itself.

The blame lies on the man who intended to make Clark suffer through Metropolis' destruction. You forget that Superman tried to take the fight into space one point. He clearly wanted to avoid collateral damage. He simply had no choice, but to fight and defeat Zod as quickly as he could.

Come on, we both know Superman is far to fast for GR to lock the PS in on Superman. If it worked so fast he would have used it on all of his opponents. That's assuming it even works on Superman. And what happens if Supes attacks Ghost Rider from behind?

Yet it was Clark who chose to take the fight in those areas. The entire bullshit surrounding the kryptoninans defeat via phantom zone bfr could have been stopped as easily as a How It Should Have Ended video showcases it to be:
YouTube video
Superman was the one who chose to exchange blows with Zod in Smallville. Zod being a villain is expected to act like that, however Superman being the good guy would obviously feel guilt over the fact that he too had something to do with Zod's destruction which could have been stopped earlier.

If by far too fast you mean to say that he'll tap the GR and then quickly back down and then tap him again and so on and so forth, then no, that's not going to happen. Superman is more likely to get up close and personal with the Rider and try to pummel him to no effect, and that's when the Rider will lock his eyes on and fry Superman's soul to kingdom come.

Originally posted by Nemesis X
Tell that to Nadya, a thief/prostitute, who did what she did so she can take care of her child despite how much she hated her lowlife career. That didn't protect her from nearly experiencing the Penance Stare and would've gotten it completely were it not for her demonic son's intervention. Even though Superman regrets taking a life, he's still getting the Stare.

Ghost Rider can stare all he wants. That may actually be his best strategy in this fight because it would be just as effective as anything else he could do to, Superman. Perhaps if he chose just to stare, Superman wouldn't drop a fist on his skull. Again, I don't know how I can stress this, Superman is not guilty of anything that would cause the Penance stare to be effective.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I accept your concession.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Even though we never actually see her getting sense-overloaded? Despite her slightly compromised mask, she was just fine prior to the missile hitting her and even tried to block it with her hand iirc.

Yet it was Clark who chose to take the fight in those areas. The entire bullshit surrounding the kryptoninans defeat via phantom zone bfr could have been stopped as easily as a How It Should Have Ended video showcases it to be:
YouTube video
Superman was the one who chose to exchange blows with Zod in Smallville. Zod being a villain is expected to act like that, however Superman being the good guy would obviously feel guilt over the fact that he too had something to do with Zod's destruction which could have been stopped earlier.

If by far too fast you mean to say that he'll tap the GR and then quickly back down and then tap him again and so on and so forth, then no, that's not going to happen. Superman is more likely to get up close and personal with the Rider and try to pummel him to no effect, and that's when the Rider will lock his eyes on and fry Superman's soul to kingdom come.

We do see her get overloaded, it was causing her pain. The sound of a missile exploding right in her face would probably be devastating.

Clark did not the take the fight to Metropolis. Zod was there, and he wanted to kill civilians. Superman did the best he could to stop him. He has absolutely no reason to feel guilty. As for Smallville Superman tackled to Zod to save his mother. How is that wrong?

Again, what durability feats does GR have that suggest he can survive against Superman?

Originally posted by Psychotron
We do see her get overloaded, it was causing her pain. The sound of a missile exploding right in her face would probably be devastating.

Clark did not the take the fight to Metropolis. Zod was there, and he wanted to kill civilians. Superman did the best he could to stop him. He has absolutely no reason to feel guilty. As for Smallville Superman tackled to Zod to save his mother. How is that wrong?

Again, what durability feats does GR have that suggest he can survive against Superman?

Well, he did a bang-up job of it by nearly destroying half the city in the ensuing battle. Look, even if you want to overlook the massive collateral damage which Superman's fight caused to the city in terms of both lives and property, you can't conveniently forget the clear manpain he felt when he was forced to snap Zod's neck. That kind of guilt isn't something which one easily shrugs off, and that along with Pa Kent's death will be undoing. It doesn't matter if both these incidences weren't directly his fault, he clearly feels some measure of guilt for both cases as evidenced by his behavior onscreen.

Already provided in previous posts. I don't believe that Superman can destroy the Rider's body or daze him long enough to count as a KO(and a forum win) but the Rider can indeed put him down with the Stare. Bfr is an option available to both, but I doubt either are likely to apply it in an in-character battle.

Originally posted by Epicurus
We also see her recover immediately after that scene. Her helmet was compromised, but it only caused momentary pain. It is impossible to know whether it got destroyed after she was KO'd or later. Speculation to say that the sensory overload KO'd her imo.

Well, he did a bang-up job of it by nearly destroying half the city in the ensuing battle. Look, even if you want to overlook the massive collateral damage which Superman's fight caused to the city in terms of both lives and property, you can't conveniently forget the clear manpain he felt when he was forced to snap Zod's neck. That kind of guilt isn't something which one easily shrugs off, and that along with Pa Kent's death will be undoing. It doesn't matter if both these incidences weren't directly his fault, he clearly feels some measure of guilt for both cases as evidenced by his behavior onscreen.

Already provided in previous posts. I don't believe that Superman can destroy the Rider's body or daze him long enough to count as a KO(and a forum win) but the Rider can indeed put him down with the Stare. Bfr is an option available to both, but I doubt either are likely to apply it in an in-character battle.

Seems pretty logical, otherwise what's the point of showing us her helmet was damaged? If it was just a missile that KOed her then they wouldn't have bothered.

Such a huge overstatement. If you look at the city while they're flying around it, you'll see that no more than 10-15% of it was destroyed, most of it by the world engine. Superman may feel guilt, but that doesn't mean the Penance stare would work on him, because he's a good man. The idea that guilt is all that's required for the PS to work is flawed and totally illogical. If that was true then truly evil people and demons would be immune to it, because they don't feel guilt. Would someone like Freddy Krueger be immune to it, because he doesn't feel guilt? I don't think so.

You think a bunker buster missile is equal to Superman's damage output? Lol no. Ghost Rider would get shredded.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Seems pretty logical, otherwise what's the point of showing us her helmet was damaged? If it was just a missile that KOed her then they wouldn't have bothered.

Such a huge overstatement. If you look at the city while they're flying around it, you'll see that no more than 10-15% of it was destroyed, most of it by the world engine. Superman may feel guilt, but that doesn't mean the Penance stare would work on him, because he's a good man. The idea that guilt is all that's required for the PS to work is flawed and totally illogical. If that was true then truly evil people and demons would be immune to it, because they don't feel guilt. Would someone like Freddy Krueger be immune to it, because he doesn't feel guilt? I don't think so.

You think a bunker buster missile is equal to Superman's damage output? Lol no. Ghost Rider would get shredded.

What is a huge overstatement? They fought across half of Metropolis/NYC and destroyed pretty much everything in their path. The intent of that fight, as mentioned by Goyer himself, was to showcase the massive scale of collateral damage when two beings of such power collide, and how a large number of people can actually die from said destruction. That idea isn't flawed at all, since the slightest hints of guilt actually do result in the victim becoming vulnerable to the Stare. As confirmed by Blaze in the opening narrative and later when Nadia nearly got soul-burned to a crisp by the Rider before Danny stopped him. You do realize that a demon like Blackheart was immune to it, right?

Considering that bunkers are built to provide protection from Nuclear warfare, yes, I believe that it is on the order of the damage that Superman could dish out. Faora was KO'd by one, and Superman dodged them during the fight with the military, so it tells me that missile explosions can at the very least rock the sh1t out of a kryptonian even if can't hurt them much further. Which is what multiple shots from similar missiles did to the Rider, just rock him. Not KO him or put him down for the count. Rider isn't getting shredded here since he's mystical being powered by mystical sources(hellfire, Zarathos' latent angel abilities etc).

And what happens when Gr head gets pulled off and thrown into space?

Originally posted by Epicurus
The FGM-148 missiles have been used as bunker busters in Iraq:

http://www.harpoondatabases.com/encyclopedia/Entry2281.aspx

Imo, that's far more impressive than just sending some waltzing through a couple buildings. Speaking of which, the Rider survived crashing down one when he was driving his supernatural bike at peak velocity in the downwards direction.

Have you actually fired a javelin? I have...its not that impressive.

Originally posted by Epicurus
It's speculation. Her helmet was still on when the missile hit her. The pain was only momentary. The missile KO'd her. If you want to argue based on speculation alone, I can go ahead and start claiming that the complete removal of the helmet exposed her face to more sunlight and thereby increased her durability. We don't get to make stuff up.

What is a huge overstatement? They fought across half of Metropolis/NYC and destroyed pretty much everything in their path. The intent of that fight, as mentioned by Goyer himself, was to showcase the massive scale of collateral damage when two beings of such power collide, and how a large number of people can actually die from said destruction. That idea isn't flawed at all, since the slightest hints of guilt actually do result in the victim becoming vulnerable to the Stare. As confirmed by Blaze in the opening narrative and later when Nadia nearly got soul-burned to a crisp by the Rider before Danny stopped him. You do realize that a demon like Blackheart was immune to it, right?

Considering that bunkers are built to provide protection from Nuclear warfare, yes, I believe that it is on the order of the damage that Superman could dish out. Faora was KO'd by one, and Superman dodged them during the fight with the military, so it tells me that missile explosions can at the very least rock the sh1t out of a kryptonian even if can't hurt them much further. Which is what multiple shots from similar missiles did to the Rider, just rock him. Not KO him or put him down for the count. Rider isn't getting shredded here since he's mystical being powered by mystical sources(hellfire, Zarathos' latent angel abilities etc).

More like the missile destroyed her already damaged helmet which exposed her to the full effect of the atmosphere and overloaded her senses. The helmet was transparent so with or without it she was getting the same amount of sunlight.

And yet when they flew around the city it was mostly undamaged, except for that one part the World engine affected. Blackheart was immune to it, because he had no soul. Other demons were affected. Did they have guilt? Do you think someone like Hannibal Lecter would be immune to the PS? He doesn't feel guilt after all. No, that would be ridiculous.

Faora wasn't koed by the missile. Namek tanked an exploding train composition, Clark tanked the World engine, it's silly to assume a missile would KO Faora when there's a far more logical explanation. Doesn't matter what he's powered by, he will be hurt by Superman.

The krypotonians would literally dismantle his body at this point. Head goes to outer space, arms and legs and body as well.

Faora was already seriously beaten down by MoS and her sensory overload combined with a exploding missile in her face caused her to KO.

It did not kill her.

PS has no time to work on Superman here, IMO. It didn't even work on Rot Man.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Proof? We only saw the mask destroyed after the missile had already blasted her.

Hurr.

YouTube video

Go to the very end, we see that Superman badly damaged the mask before the missile ever hit her. I'll see if I can find the actual missile scene later.

Lawl.

no u.

Tell that to Goyer, who clearly believes that their fight caused enormous collateral damage, in terms of both property and lives.

Sure it did, and the vast bulk of it was caused by Zod.

Based on nothing whatsoever. The moment he gets close(which he inevitably will), he'll get his soul barbequed.

Based on the sheer difference in physicality.

Superman moves faster than Grider thinks based on feats.

Originally posted by Supra
Have you actually fired a javelin? I have...its not that impressive.

Originally posted by Psychotron
More like the missile destroyed her already damaged helmet which exposed her to the full effect of the atmosphere and overloaded her senses. The helmet was transparent so with or without it she was getting the same amount of sunlight.

And yet when they flew around the city it was mostly undamaged, except for that one part the World engine affected. Blackheart was immune to it, because he had no soul. Other demons were affected. Did they have guilt? Do you think someone like Hannibal Lecter would be immune to the PS? He doesn't feel guilt after all. No, that would be ridiculous.

Faora wasn't koed by the missile. Namek tanked an exploding train composition, Clark tanked the World engine, it's silly to assume a missile would KO Faora when there's a far more logical explanation. Doesn't matter what he's powered by, he will be hurt by Superman.

What? Mostly undamaged? Did we watch the same movie? Other demons were affected by his hellfire, which he used for either incinerating them to death or sending them back to hell. I wouldn't put it past Lecter, since movie GR seems to pretty similar to comics GR in terms of powerset and his weaknesses/limitations. Comic GR's PS has after all failed to work on dysfunctional sociopaths like Cletus Cassidy, and outright backfired against the insane Deadpool. But still, that's speculation.

Onscreen evidence disagrees with you. Why did he try to dodge helicopter missiles then? Again, while the World Engine Feat sounds impressive on paper, it's unquantifiable imo. Going by you reasoning I might as well start claiming that the Rider's ability to open portals to Hell at will means that he can rip the very fabric of space-time with ease, which should put his hellfire right in the range of the juice which enables Superman to escape from a collapsing wormhole.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Hurr.

YouTube video

Go to the very end, we see that Superman badly damaged the mask before the missile ever hit her. I'll see if I can find the actual missile scene later.

Originally posted by NemeBro

no u.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Sure it did, and the vast bulk of it was caused by Zod.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Based on the sheer difference in physicality.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Superman moves faster than Grider thinks based on feats.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Do we see her getting exposed to the atmosphere? No. Do we actually see her helmet getting shredded before she gets KO'd? No. All that we're shown is her unconscious body after the missile strikes, without the helmet. Yes, the helmet was damaged, but she seemed to be unaffected by it after initial pain. Speculative claims remain speculative claims.

What? Mostly undamaged? Did we watch the same movie? Other demons were affected by his hellfire, which he used for either incinerating them to death or sending them back to hell. I wouldn't put it past Lecter, since movie GR seems to pretty similar to comics GR in terms of powerset and his weaknesses/limitations. Comic GR's PS has after all failed to work on dysfunctional sociopaths like Cletus Cassidy, and outright backfired against the insane Deadpool. But still, that's speculation.

Onscreen evidence disagrees with you. Why did he try to dodge helicopter missiles then? Again, while the World Engine Feat sounds impressive on paper, it's unquantifiable imo. Going by you reasoning I might as well start claiming that the Rider's ability to open portals to Hell at will means that he can rip the very fabric of space-time with ease, which should put his hellfire right in the range of the juice which enables Superman to escape from a collapsing wormhole.

Yes, we did. That's the reason she was in pain in the first place. She obviously tried to get through it, but the missile was too much. Here are the facts: badly damaged helmet before the missile strike, destroyed helmet after the strike. The end. This all after taking shots from Superman btw. Zod also got taken out by the sensory overload. It's clearly damaging to unadjusted Kryptonians.

Aside from the starting area of the fight (which was devastated by the World engine) most of the city was fine. You can see that when start flying through the city. Ghost Rider has used the his Penance stare against at least one demon that I can remember, so unless you believe that it was feeling guilty then we can assume guilt is not the only factor. Let me refine my question, do you think someone who is not insane, but clearly evil, would resist the PS, just because he doesn't feel guilty about his actions? Like Ra's Al Ghul for example.

Because he was unsure of his own powers and limits obviously. Even without the World engine feat there's still crashing through a mountain without injury and being tossed through multiple building by Zod. No, my reasoning is sound and based on what happened in the films. You're just assuming the PS will work on Superman, and you're assuming GR can lock on to him despite Clark's vastly superior speed.