Superman vs. Ghost Rider

Originally posted by Psychotron
Yes, we did. That's the reason she was in pain in the first place. She obviously tried to get through it, but the missile was too much. Here are the facts: badly damaged helmet before the missile strike, destroyed helmet after the strike. The end. This all after taking shots from Superman btw. Zod also got taken out by the sensory overload. It's clearly damaging to unadjusted Kryptonians.

Aside from the starting area of the fight (which was devastated by the World engine) most of the city was fine. You can see that when start flying through the city. Ghost Rider has used the his Penance stare against at least one demon that I can remember, so unless you believe that it was feeling guilty then we can assume guilt is not the only factor. Let me refine my question, do you think someone who is not insane, but clearly evil, would resist the PS, just because he doesn't feel guilty about his actions? Like Ra's Al Ghul for example.

Because he was unsure of his own powers and limits obviously. Even without the World engine feat there's still crashing through a mountain without injury and being tossed through multiple building by Zod. No, my reasoning is sound and based on what happened in the films. You're just assuming the PS will work on Superman, and you're assuming GR can lock on to him despite Clark's vastly superior speed.

I have argued this point particular point repeatedly, but even if you want to dismiss the evidence readily available which I have presented so far(and I am the only individual who has actually presented any hard proof to back up his statement throughout this exchange), I already pointed out that the residual guilt felt from Zod and Pa Kent's deaths clearly haunts Superman, and that alone is enough for the Rider to hone onto. If you still want to disagree with this point, then more power to you.

That's quite a lot of reaching right there. He dodged those missiles long after Jor-El's speech about him stretching his limits, after he'd already tried to test the extent of his powers. This is getting awful. Again, those feats aren't enough to warrant and insta-win against the Rider imo. We've seen the Rider tank some pretty heavy punishment in both movies, but if you still want to stick to unquantifiable feats like the World Engine and the phantom zone wormhole, I too will continue to point out that the Rider's ability to casually rip the fabric of space-time is enough for him to put some serious hurting on Superman here, even without the PS.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I know that. And she recovered after the initial shock. We never see the mask getting blown up before she got KO'd or the other way round either. Whatever, that type of mental gymnastics is something I am going to bother to entertain. I'll just respond that the mask getting removed exposed her face to that much more sunlight, which made her that much more durable, which makes this KO that much more of an awful low showing.

What exactly makes you think that the mask doesn't let her get the full benefit of the sun's rays? It is entirely transparent, it doesn't even muffle her voice.

Mental gymnastics, lol. Did you even watch the movie? It was explicit that the kryptonians were severely weak to Earth's atmosphere.

YouTube video

Seven minutes in. She didn't "recover" after the initial shock, she spent the next few moments grimacing, kneeled over from the pain on the ground, before being hit by the missile which KO'd her. Without a scratch, mind you.

I accept your concession. 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMmP5y70KY

You believe this missile is more destructive than what Superman can bring to bear physically? Lol, what an idiot.

"Oh but it's used on bunkers!"

Meaning what?

So Goyer claimed that most of the damage in their fight was caused by Zod alone? Citation(s)?

Watch the fight. 👆

Strength and speed are the only difference, and that too largely because the Rider's powerset has a more esoteric focus.

No, Superman is physically superior in every way. 👆

The destruction of the World Engine is a better durability feat than any of Grider's. 👆

Anyways, if we want to go down that route then I'll claim that since Superman's best feat is barely escaping a portal to another dimension and the Rider's hellfire can open dimensional portals as easily as peeling a banana, therefore a good dose of the hf will scorch Superman to death. 🙂

Not equivalent, and is only trying to quietly sidestep the issue of Superman beating Grider to death with his bare hands, which actually would happen.

Prove it. The Rider's speed is such that he treated being in the middle of a fall as if time had slowed around him.

And Superman's speed is such that upon take-off a sonic boom that causes rifts in the ice he was standing upon is formed, and this video:

YouTube video

Near the end of the video, where he flies partly around the globe. That's far better than any speed feat of Grider, by a very significant amount.

There is a version of Superman who has a similar speed feat. Guess who? The Rider also speedblitzed several of Carrigan's footsoldiers during both encounters. Of course, that's certainly not in the same ballpark as Superman's speed, but there is literally no evidence to prove that Superman moves too fast for the Rider to even react.

Except the evidence I just posted.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What exactly makes you think that the mask doesn't let her get the full benefit of the sun's rays? It is entirely transparent, it doesn't even muffle her voice.

Mental gymnastics, lol. Did you even watch the movie? It was explicit that the kryptonians were severely weak to Earth's atmosphere.

YouTube video

Seven minutes in. She didn't "recover" after the initial shock, she spent the next few moments grimacing, kneeled over from the pain on the ground, before being hit by the missile which KO'd her. Without a scratch, mind you.

While she is talking with Kal-El. She isn't completely compromised in that position which is my contention.

Originally posted by NemeBro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMmP5y70KY

You believe this missile is more destructive than what Superman can bring to bear physically? Lol, what an idiot.

"Oh but it's used on bunkers!"

Meaning what?

Busting bunkers is every bit as impressive as crashing through a bunch of buildings, and infinitely more impressive than getting KO'd by an oil rig. Bear that in mind the next time you try and fail to be a smartass. 🙂

Originally posted by NemeBro

Watch the fight. 👆

Originally posted by NemeBro

No, Superman is physically superior in every way. 👆

The destruction of the World Engine is a better durability feat than any of Grider's. 👆

Unquantifiable. But since we want to bring up such feats, I say the Rider standing in close proximity to and being unfazed by the Hell-wormhole he opened when he banished Rourke is far more impressive than Superman struggling to escape from the phantom zone singularity.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Not equivalent, and is only trying to quietly sidestep the issue of Superman beating Grider to death with his bare hands, which actually would happen.

Originally posted by NemeBro

And Superman's speed is such that upon take-off a sonic boom that causes rifts in the ice he was standing upon is formed, and this video:

YouTube video

Near the end of the video, where he flies partly around the globe. That's far better than any speed feat of Grider, by a very significant amount.

Except the evidence I just posted.

That evidence hardly negates any of my claims.🙂

Originally posted by Epicurus
No we didn't. I already pointed out that the pain was only momentary and she was alright afterwards. She didn't seem the slightest bit fazed when she tried to block that missile with her hand. You're still speculating/reaching heavily imo.

I have argued this point particular point repeatedly, but even if you want to dismiss the evidence readily available which I have presented so far(and I am the only individual who has actually presented any hard proof to back up his statement throughout this exchange), I already pointed out that the residual guilt felt from Zod and Pa Kent's deaths clearly haunts Superman, and that alone is enough for the Rider to hone onto. If you still want to disagree with this point, then more power to you.

That's quite a lot of reaching right there. He dodged those missiles long after Jor-El's speech about him stretching his limits, after he'd already tried to test the extent of his powers. This is getting awful. Again, those feats aren't enough to warrant and insta-win against the Rider imo. We've seen the Rider tank some pretty heavy punishment in both movies, but if you still want to stick to unquantifiable feats like the World Engine and the phantom zone wormhole, I too will continue to point out that the Rider's ability to casually rip the fabric of space-time is enough for him to put some serious hurting on Superman here, even without the PS.

She was wincing in pain. What more do you want? I guess they should have included a thought bubble that says "Damn, this really hurts, but I'll try to keep going.". She was a warrior, she tried to fight through the pain, but the missile was too much. There was no other reason for Snyder to show her helmet getting damaged.

And I'm arguing that guilt is not enough. You have yet to prove otherwise. It's pure speculation that the PS will affect Clark.

That doesn't mean anything. We saw him jump out of the way of machine gun fire at the start of the fight, then we saw him tanking it with no problem. Kal was simply unsure of himself and his own powers. How is crashing through a mountain unquantifiable? Or being tossed through buildings?

Originally posted by Psychotron
She was wincing in pain. What more do you want? I guess they should have included a thought bubble that says "Damn, this really hurts, but I'll try to keep going.". She was a warrior, she tried to fight through the pain, but the missile was too much. There was no other reason for Snyder to show her helmet getting damaged.

And I'm arguing that guilt is not enough. You have yet to prove otherwise. It's pure speculation that the PS will affect Clark.

That doesn't mean anything. We saw him jump out of the way of machine gun fire at the start of the fight, then we saw him tanking it with no problem. Kal was simply unsure of himself and his own powers. How is crashing through a mountain unquantifiable? Or being tossed through buildings?

I already proved it with Blaze's narrative and Nadia almost getting fried in the second movie.

Whatever, the Rider's durability isn't so low on the totem pole that Superman would just disintegrate him with a punch which you and quite a lot of other pro-Superman guys were implying in your posts. I am saying that the World Engine and the phantom singularity feats are unquantifiable. Not the mountain and building stuff, which clearly doesn't prove that Superman has what it takes to hurt the Rider. Rider wins imo via the PS or through the hell-dimensional bfr.

lol, 10 pages? Not reading through this nonsense, but lemme take a guess at what's happening...

everyone agree that GR gets pulped, and Quan (along with one or two other junior Quan's) is saying that GR uses Superman's guilt over killing to Zod to win via Penance stare.

am i close?

Originally posted by Epicurus
Agree to disagree on the missile part. It's getting too circular.

I already proved it with Blaze's narrative and Nadia almost getting fried in the second movie.

Whatever, the Rider's durability isn't so low on the totem pole that Superman would just disintegrate him with a punch which you and quite a lot of other pro-Superman guys were implying in your posts. I am saying that the World Engine and the phantom singularity feats are unquantifiable. Not the mountain and building stuff, which clearly doesn't prove that Superman has what it takes to hurt the Rider. Rider wins imo via the PS or through the hell-dimensional bfr.

I'm tempted to say concession accepted, but I'm a nice guy so I won't.

However, you have not proven the PS works on good characters, or that Ghost Rides is fast enough to lock onto someone as fast as Superman.

I disagree, The Kryptonians were causing massive damage with their attacks. Just one punch from Superman was enough to send Namek flying into a train so hard it exploded. Zod was strong enough to toss Clark through 3-4 skyscrapers, Namek threw a train a good mile or more. That's more than enough to hurt GR, and if it's not then there's always the option to bfr him into space.

Originally posted by marwash22
lol, 10 pages? Not reading through this nonsense, but lemme take a guess at what's happening...

everyone agree that GR gets pulped, and Quan (along with one or two other junior Quan's) is saying that GR uses Superman's guilt over killing to Zod to win via Penance stare.

am i close?

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Psychotron
I'm tempted to say concession accepted, but I'm a nice guy so I won't.

However, you have not proven the PS works on good characters, or that Ghost Rides is fast enough to lock onto someone as fast as Superman.

I disagree, The Kryptonians were causing massive damage with their attacks. Just one punch from Superman was enough to send Namek flying into a train so hard it exploded. Zod was strong enough to toss Clark through 3-4 skyscrapers, Namek threw a train a good mile or more. That's more than enough to hurt GR, and if it's not then there's always the option to bfr him into space.

I did. Twice in a row in two posts before. I am not going to bother repeating myself all over again, since it seems that you want to ignore any and all evidence posted in favor of the Rider and subscribe to this nonsensical idea that Superman would pretty much disintegrate the Rider with his punches.

So now you flip-flop by saying that kryptonians were causing massive damage from their attacks? Anyways, that damage isn't enough to put the Rider down for the count. The Rider can bfr as well, as has been pointed out to you at least thrice across this thread now.

Originally posted by marwash22
lol, 10 pages? Not reading through this nonsense, but lemme take a guess at what's happening...

everyone agree that GR gets pulped, and Quan (along with one or two other junior Quan's) is saying that GR uses Superman's guilt over killing to Zod to win via Penance stare.

am i close?

Originally posted by Epicurus
Not wanting to argue repetitive nonsense is not equivalent to conceding.👆

I did. Twice in a row in two posts before. I am not going to bother repeating myself all over again, since it seems that you want to ignore any and all evidence posted in favor of the Rider and subscribe to this nonsensical idea that Superman would pretty much disintegrate the Rider with his punches.

So now you flip-flop by saying that kryptonians were causing massive damage from their attacks? Anyways, that damage isn't enough to put the Rider down for the count. The Rider can bfr as well, as has been pointed out to you at least thrice across this thread now.

Your speculation =/= proof. We can't just assume GR can affect heroes with his PS until we see it, and we can't always assume it's an insta-win button.

I did not flip flop. I always said Superman is capable of putting GR down.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Your speculation =/= proof. We can't just assume GR can affect heroes with his PS until we see it, and we can't always assume it's an insta-win button.

I did not flip flop. I always said Superman is capable of putting GR down.

You did, but that is neither here nor there.

Man of Steel wins.

Originally posted by Epicurus
What speculation? I cited onscreen evidence of how the Stare works, and how it has affected protagonists before.

You did, but that is neither here nor there.

You have not proven the stare is capable of hurting someone of Superman caliber (both power and character-wise).

I did not. I maintain that the collateral damage wasn't as much as people say, however the damage to his opponents was significant.

Originally posted by Psychotron
You have not proven the stare is capable of hurting someone of Superman caliber (both power and character-wise).

I did not. I maintain that the collateral damage wasn't as much as people say, however the damage to his opponents was significant.

But you did. You went from outright denying that their was any collateral damage from their fight to admitting there might've been some but Superman is not to blame for it, to outright admitting it in previous posts on this page. Apart from Zod, he didn't cause any significant damage to any other opponent.

Originally posted by Epicurus
The stare isn't limited by power, only if the victim has a soul or not. Blackheart in movie 1 had city-busting potential even before his power-up and after getting empowered by those thousands of souls, he became vulnerable to Stare once again. We all saw what happened afterwards. Far as character goes, I have cited evidence that the Rider preys upon those with even the tiniest hint of guilt in their heart, and he damn near fried Nadia as well. He'll go after Superman in this thread, and the Stare will definitely work as well.

But you did. You went from outright denying that their was any collateral damage from their fight to admitting there might've been some but Superman is not to blame for it, to outright admitting it in previous posts on this page. Apart from Zod, he didn't cause any significant damage to any other opponent.

When I said power I meant his speed and strength. GR can't lock on to someone with Superman's speed, and he can't grip him and force hum to stare into his eyes thanks to Superman's vastly superior strength. Why do you go on with this guilt stupidity? It's clear the PS doesn't work like that otherwise only good people would be affected by it.

No I said there were no casualties caused by Superman and Zod's fight, because we never see any, and I still maintain that only about 15% of the city was damaged. He killed Zod, he temporarily took out Namek, and he damaged Faora's helmet which allowed the missile to ko her. That's plenty, and these 3 opponents are much stronger than Ghost Rider.

Originally posted by Psychotron
When I said power I meant his speed and strength. GR can't lock on to someone with Superman's speed, and he can't grip him and force hum to stare into his eyes thanks to Superman's vastly superior strength. Why do you go on with this guilt stupidity? It's clear the PS doesn't work like that otherwise only good people would be affected by it.

No I said there were no casualties caused by Superman and Zod's fight, because we never see any, and I still maintain that only about 15% of the city was damaged. He killed Zod, he temporarily took out Namek, and he damaged Faora's helmet which allowed the missile to ko her. That's plenty, and these 3 opponents are much stronger than Ghost Rider.

Which is directly contradicted by Goyer's opinion, which you begrudgingly agreed to in a previous reply. Stronger, yes. More formidable or overall more powerful? No. GR has access to abilities beyond traditional physical capability demonstrated by the kryptonians.

Originally posted by Supra
Man of Steel wins.

Originally posted by Epicurus
GR doesn't need to hold onto people in order to "lock" on to them. Speed has already been addressed before; the GR had one speed feat(frozen time frame movement) in movie 2 which is on par with some of the sh1t that Smallville Clark has achieved never mind MoS Clark.

Which is directly contradicted by Goyer's opinion, which you begrudgingly agreed to in a previous reply. Stronger, yes. More formidable or overall more powerful? No. GR has access to abilities beyond traditional physical capability demonstrated by the kryptonians.

So how is he going to force Superman to look him in the eyes then? Can you post a clip of this speed feat? I don't remember it, but then again I try my best to forget the GR movies.

This casualty shit is irrelevant. I still don't believe there were many casualties caused by Clark and Zod (plenty by the World engine though) but it doesn't matter one way or the other. You still haven't proven that the Penance stare only needs guilt to work. If the Rider was in MoS he would have been pulverized by Faora and Namek, he wouldn't have had any way of stopping the World engine either.

Originally posted by Psychotron
So how is he going to force Superman to look him in the eyes then? Can you post a clip of this speed feat? I don't remember it, but then again I try my best to forget the GR movies.

This casualty shit is irrelevant. I still don't believe there were many casualties caused by Clark and Zod (plenty by the World engine though) but it doesn't matter one way or the other. You still haven't proven that the Penance stare only needs guilt to work. If the Rider was in MoS he would have been pulverized by Faora and Namek, he wouldn't have had any way of stopping the World engine either.

It's during his second encounter with the rearmed Carrigan group. After he's hit with one of the anti-tank missiles, he's revolving midair and seems to be frozen in time when suddenly mid-time freeze he cocks his head sideways. Then a frame later we see him literally blitzing upon one Carrigan's foot soldiers.

I have proven it a bazillion times already by citing Blaze's commentary in the second movie, showing examples from the first and second both, and also pointing out the Nadia example of the Rider affecting a reformed person that still carries residual guilt in their heart(s). If I posted screencaps, you would just accuse me of editing the subtitles. I can't post movie clips, since my youtube account's been DMCA'd. I don't believe that the Rider would have been pulverized, but that's neither here nor there.

What evil(s) has Superman done that would allow GR to penance him?