Nah, that's pretty much what happened. Luke kept her pinned and bore the brunt of her attacks, Krayt leeched her with his drain. They're not peers and certainly not equals.
More to the point, that Krayt was the first to rise is irrelevant when it's pretty clear Luke was contemplating remaining beyond shadows with Mara's specter.
Originally posted by Unbowed
🙄
Best stick to emoticons in lieu of actual arguments.
Originally posted by The_Tempest👆
...No. It's notwankageLegacy hate to say that Krayt isn't a peer of Luke Skywalker.
Krayt is a beast, no doubt, but the wanking borders on absurdity. Claiming that 'Krayt=Luke', based on a single showing in which Luke clearly preformed the majority of the force-intensive labor, while Krayt stood by and did his(albeit critical) thing... Is just silly, and imo, proves the exact opposite.
Anyway, Krayt might be able to make Luke work for the win, but Luke would win every time--and solidly so.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Equals, more or less. Krayt isn't fodder for Luke, but Luke is unquestionably the more powerful adept and skilled duelist. Especially as of Apocalypse.
Peers doesn't mean exact equals, mind.
And Caedus's opinion is, of course, subjective. My view is that Caedus is wrong, Luke is stronger, but from his PoV both are stronger than he is (else he would not call Krayt stronger than Luke), so...
And Krayt was a Sith strong enough to keep pace throughout the Abeloth fight, meaning he was very powerful in Luke's eyes, enough to be a 'balance.'
Nah, that's pretty much what happened. Luke kept her pinned and bore the brunt of her attacks, Krayt leeched her with his drain.
They both opened up with blasting her with the force.
Then Luke went physical, Abeloth attcked him and hit him in the eye, then Krayt joined in, shoving his hand into her stomach and keeping it there.
She tried to blast both off, and neither released their grip.
Then the draining started, and it was specifically noted it hurt Krayt too, and he still had his hand in her. It was noted the holding and draining was taking energy out of the Jedi/Sith about equally.
Then Abeloth tried to break free again and there was more physical scuffling.
Then Abeloth teleported away... with Krayt's hand still in her.
Then she attacked, got 'em both with black tentacles, Saba Sebatyne killed another part of her elsewhere, and Luke landed the finishing blow.
Or in other words, there was a *lot* more than him standing and draining, he did plenty of physical, ate plenty of attacks, and his draining did involve backlash.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, that's pretty much what happened. Luke kept her pinned and bore the brunt of her attacks, Krayt leeched her with his drain. They're not peers and certainly not equals.
Best stick to emoticons in lieu of actual arguments.
Luke did not "pin down" Abeloth. You make it sound like the fight was an mmo, with Luke playing the tank and Krayt the damage dealer. No such thing happened. Luke was injured because he failed to defend himself(and so was Krayt), not because of a deliberate attempt to protect Krayt so he could do his draining. There is one instance where the situation can be misinterpreted that way, and we'll get to that.
The reality is that they both did their best to harm her, but Luke's methods of attack were more limited, him being a lightsider and all.
Here are the most relevant fragments from the fight:
Luke’s hand dropped to his hip, automatically reaching for a lightsaber that did not exist beyond shadows. He tried to continue the motion and bring it up to deliver a blast of Force energy, but Abeloth had already launched her own attack by then, delivering a bolt of Force lightning that blasted straight through the stranger into Luke. He felt himself fly backward, consumed by pain, his entire being a column of blue, crackling Force flame.
Luke and the Sith stranger had been hurling Force attacks at her for a lifetime—or perhaps it was a mere eyeblink—and this was the first time she had shown any reaction.
Tentacles began to lash at his face, probing for his nose and ears and mouth. A pair of gray tips shot into view, blurring and growing large. Luke closed both eyes and turned away, but not quickly enough. The right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head. The tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth’s stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab. Abeloth loosed a Force blast, trying to drive the stranger off. He held tight. So did Luke, and all three went tumbling across the lake in a snarled mass of limbs and tentacles.
Then Luke felt an icy twinge between his shoulder blades. The twinge became a sting, and he began to feel something cold flowing down the center of his back. His first thought was Abeloth, that she had sunk a tentacle into his spine—until the lashing of her tentacles slowed and she began to shudder. Luke did not understand until an eternity later, when the stranger rolled up on his feet and jerked them all to a halt. The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a Force-draining technique. Still holding Abeloth tight, Luke shifted his hips, rolling them both onto their sides, and kicked a foot through the stranger’s knee. The joint buckled, and the Sith dropped onto the surface of the dark water, still on the opposite side of Abeloth from Luke.
Abeloth whipped her chin free of Luke’s hand, ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake. She began to roll her head around, gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke’s arm or the stranger’s—anything she could reach. Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control. “Keep going,” Luke urged the stranger. “Pull harder!”
Abeloth lay tangled in Luke’s arms, a writhing mass of Force energy that had suddenly gone limp a second or a day ago, only to explode an hour or a nanosecond later into a flailing tempest that had sent them all rolling and bouncing across the Lake of Apparition’s dark waters. The stranger was tumbling with them, his hand still buried in Abeloth’s chest, now wailing in agony as gleaming black Force energy steamed from his wounds.
Abeloth stopped struggling and seemed to shrink in his arms, and Luke dared to think that maybe, just maybe she had finally lost hope, that they had exhausted her to the point that she was no longer capable of fighting. Then she was gone, leaving the stranger and Luke with nothing between them but twenty centimeters of space and the stump of the Sith’s hand, now pointed at Luke’s chest and still drawing Force energy, draining it not from Abeloth now, but directly from Luke. They stayed like that for an eternity, a void of cold nothingness growing inside Luke as the stranger continued to hang in the air above, draining him. It seemed to Luke that the Sith’s betrayal was premature, that they at least ought to make certain Abeloth was truly dead before they turned to fighting each other … but that was not the way Sith did things. Luke started to bring his hand up, intending to hit the stranger with a Force blast. But before he could loose it, the Sith’s feet dropped to the water’s surface, and he raised his stump and pointed toward the far end of the lake. “There!” Luke craned his neck and saw Abeloth’s silhouette backing into the Mists of Forgetfulness—with the stranger’s wrist still protruding from her chest. “Stop her!” Luke yelled. “If she disappears into that fog …” Luke left the sentence unfinished as a fountain of oily black Force energy erupted from the protruding wrist. Abeloth’s mouth gaped open, and her piercing shriek broke over the lake, reverberating across the water like a clap of thunder. Luke glanced over and saw the stranger standing beside him, pointing in her direction, using the Force to draw his missing hand back toward its stump.
Abeloth did not come dancing in to counterattack, did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning. She did not have time for such tactics. Luke doubted she would have fled the battle in the first place if she were not already dying, and with her Force essence gushing out of her like a geyser, she had to attack now.
And she did.
In the next thought Abeloth was simply there in front of the stranger, driving a ball of tentacles deep into him. Luke sprang forward to help—and felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could. Luke attacked anyway, driving an elbow strike into the side of her head. As before, there was no crunching, no physical sense of impact, only Force energy plowing through Force energy, sending waves of pain and damage rolling through them both. Luke sensed his elbow come free as it pushed out the other side of Abeloth’s head. Then she simply fell away, her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the stranger … each clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence. The stranger collapsed with a gaping hole in his chest. Luke felt his own form grow limp and weak, and he sensed his mouth falling open to scream, then his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath.
More to the point, that Krayt was the first to rise is irrelevant when it's pretty clear Luke was contemplating remaining beyond shadows with Mara's specter.
It occurred to him that he might well be dying, and it was not a thought that brought him any fear. Even if his life had not been as long as Yoda’s, it had been a good one filled with close friends and much-loved family. He had been of some small service, at least, to his fellow sentient beings. And in the new Jedi Order, he had rekindled a light that had once gone out in the galaxy. He had few regrets for anything he had done, and if the time had come to let another Jedi carry the torch, he was ready. “Not yet, Skywalker.” The voice was warm and familiar, and it came from beside Luke. He turned to find Mara’s face breaking the surface of the water. Then he saw a hand gripping the back of his biceps and realized that she was floating beneath him, preventing him from sinking. “Mara, it’s okay,” Luke said. “I’m ready. I want to be with you.” “Too bad.” He felt his upper body rising as she tried to push him upward. “I don’t want to be with you—not here, not yet.” “What?” Luke asked, feeling more confused than resentful. “Mara, I’m wounded … badly. Abeloth took something out of me.” “She wounded him, too.” Mara’s other hand rose out of the water and pointed past Luke’s head, toward the tattooed Sith who had helped Luke kill Abeloth. The stranger was on his feet, limping toward the far shore with both hands clutched to his chest. “If he can do it, so can you.” Luke forced himself to sit upright. The effort made his head spin and his whole being ache, but he refused to collapse back into the water. He had no idea of the Sith’s true identity, but it did not seem wise to let him return to the physical galaxy alone
Q99's point stands. Krayt was the first on his feet, and he didn't need encouragement from anyone. Luke was ready to surrender to death. It was Mara and the thought of Krayt loose on the galaxy.
***
So in conclusion, judging from this fight, Krayt is not only Luke's peer, but it appears he actually performed better than Luke. He did more damage and he was on his feet faster than Luke.
Call me a fanboy if you will, it doesn't matter. I know it's an unpopular notion, but it's written plainly for anyone to see. Krayt did better than Luke against Abeloth. Take it up with Denning if you're upset.
Krayt is Luke's equal now... facepalm
The funny thing is your whole post literally confirms what Tempest was saying. Luke is pinning down Abeloth which gives Krayt the opportunity to drain her. Yes, Krayt was there helping Luke, but it was Luke that was physically overpowering Abeloth to give Krayt the opportunity he needed.
Originally posted by ares834
Krayt is Luke's equal now... facepalmThe funny thing is your whole post literally confirms what Tempest was saying. Luke is pinning down Abeloth which gives Krayt the opportunity to drain her. Yes, Krayt was there helping Luke, but it was Luke that was physically overpowering Abeloth to give Krayt the opportunity he needed.
Krayt isn't helping Luke, and Luke isn't helping Krayt. They are both doing their best to hurt Abeloth. Krayt just happens to have a better way than Luke, since Sith are better at that particular aspect than Jedi.
Claiming that Luke was "overpowering" Abeloth and Krayt was just "helping him" is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
Funny that you would accuse me of misrepresenting facts while your "most relevant fragments from the fight" conveniently don't have the parts where we clearly see Luke grappling and restraining Abeloth.
"He pivoted around behind her, swinging one arm around her shoulder and grabbing for her chin, slipping the other arm up under hers and pressing his wrist into her neck. But grappling was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy."
BTW, it was while Luke was doing this that Krayt stuck his hand inside Abeloth to begin draining. Heck, once Kryat begins draining Luke actually threatens to release Abeloth.
Here is another fragment with Luke clearly restraining her: "Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control."
By contrast, there is not one mention of Krayt physically restraining Abeloth (at least none that I noticed). He stuck his hand inside her (giggity), grabbed on to something, and began draining. No mention at all of him physically restraining her.
Originally posted by ares834I did not "conveniently" leave those parts out. I felt them out in the interest of keeping the wall of text as short as possible.
Funny that you would accuse me of misrepresenting facts while your "most relevant fragments from the fight" conveniently don't have the parts where we clearly see Luke grappling and restraining Abeloth."He pivoted around behind her, swinging one arm around her shoulder and grabbing for her chin, slipping the other arm up under hers and pressing his wrist into her neck. But grappling was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy."
BTW, it was while Luke was doing this that Krayt stuck his hand inside Abeloth to begin draining. Heck, once Kryat begins draining Luke actually threatens to release Abeloth.
Here is another fragment with Luke clearly restraining her: "Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control."
By contrast, there is not one mention of Krayt physically restraining Abeloth (at least none that I noticed). He stuck his hand inside her (giggity), grabbed on to something, and began draining. No mention at all of him physically restraining her.
Luke also believes Krayt was trying to betray him. Twice. And he attacks him once, and prepares to attack him the second time. Does that make it true? No. Those are just Luke's panicked thoughts, in the fog of combat.
You're grasping at straws here.
Yes, which probably helps explain why he was less tired than Luke, but still, it's not something many could do at all.
Originally posted by ares834
Krayt is Luke's equal now... facepalm
According to Caedus, a biased-in-favor-of-Sith source, yes.
But even so, a Sith of Caedus's level, mistaken them for that level, is rather high praise!
If you are good enough that you can be mistaken for the best, even if you aren't, by someone who's impressive themselves, then you're still really, really good.
The scene pretty much blows the idea that Krayt's some normal sith lord out of the water, even though I very much rate Luke higher than him as well.
I mean, a lot of these arguments are just, "Wow, I can't believe (sith I assumed to be lower) is being said to be high,"... but that's not a counter-argument, that's just disbelief, and these are in-universe judgements.
The funny thing is your whole post literally confirms what Tempest was saying. Luke is pinning down Abeloth which gives Krayt the opportunity to drain her. Yes, Krayt was there helping Luke, but it was Luke that was physically overpowering Abeloth to give Krayt the opportunity he needed.
Note also how Luke couldn't physically restrain Abeloth on his own and could only do so when Krayt stuck a hand in Abeloth's gut.
And that's also writing off the attacks Krayt still took even so (he and Luke got attacked about equally!), and the other force attacks he did.
One of the big points of the whole scene was both were absolutely needed. Without the other, each would have been screwed, and that goes both ways. That's the entire narrative focus of the battle.
The thing is many people are outraged that Krayt could 'suddenly' be Luke's equal, but we knew since the end of Legacy that Krayt was at the very pinnacle of Force users.
The Krayt that appeared in Legacy, weakened and on the brink of death because of age and the Vong parasites, was still a very strong Sith lord. Not top tier, but he was on the Vader/Dooku level - though with a weaker stamina.
And after Krayt was resurrected he made this statement:
I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied.
So you have someone at least twice as strong as Vader or Dooku, throw in the Shatterpoint and Dark Healing abilities and you have probably the strongest Sith to have ever existed(except Vitiate, but I won't open that can of worms).
Originally posted by Q99
According to Caedus, a biased-in-favor-of-Sith source, yes.
Ok... So nothing to go on. Plus Caedus doesn't actually say Krayt is more powerful or even as powerful. He says, "Sith are stronger."
Originally posted by Q99
One of the big points of the whole scene was both were absolutely needed. Without the other, each would have been screwed, and that goes both ways. That's the entire narrative focus of the battle.
Cool?
No one said Luke could have beat Abeloth on his own.
Originally posted by Unbowed
His power multiplied. That implies that he was twice as strong at the very least, and probably more than that(otherwise why not say "I have returned with my power doubled" or something to that effect).
Hyperbole. While Krayt was undoubtedly more powerful, based on his fights he certainly didn't show anything to suggest he truly was multiple times as powerful.