Darth Maul vs Darth Krayt

How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul.

Lol WHAT? That's your justification?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul.

You do realize power in that realm is based on power in the force, right?

And that he portrays great strength outside (and in fact his body was enhanced by the Vong)? And all kinds of powerful force abilities, including ones that Sidious would salivate over? And has tons of saber feats?

Regardless, the main attack Krayt used in that fight was draining Abeloth and weakening her. If Krayt has this force drain technique outside that realm, he's never been shown to utilize it anywhere else in combat. Obviously because it requires him to make some kind of physical contact with his opponent, unless he was just stupid during the fight with Abeloth and wanted to feel on her. So you guys can keep harping on that fight all you want, but at least explain how it'll help him here.

That said, Krayt doesn't hold a candle to Sidious in sabers. Sidious has better strength feats, far greater speed feats, and better accolades (stated to be skilled in all forms of saber combat). Sidious wouldn't speed blitz Krayt, but he'd wreck him pretty bad in sabers.

In a force contest, well I'm pretty sure you know who is the more powerful dark sider, which is why you and everyone else who keeps arguing in favor of Krayt keeps harping on Krayt's healing ability with dark transfer, which has absolutely nothing to do with combat. Maybe Sidious didn't master the ability to keep his body from dying, but he was definitely the dark lord that was harder to get rid of. Once Krayt's body was destroyed, he was gone for good. Sidious had his body destroyed about three times, but it didn't stop him from coming back.

Ms.smith, how about you go back to the battle bar and do what you do best: arguing and worrying about gays, because we all know it affects your life some type of way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
[B]Regardless, the main attack Krayt used in that fight was draining Abeloth and weakening her. If Krayt has this force drain technique outside that realm, he's never been shown to utilize it anywhere else in combat. Obviously because it requires him to make some kind of physical contact with his opponent, unless he was just stupid during the fight with Abeloth and wanted to feel on her. So you guys can keep harping on that fight all you want, but at least explain how it'll help him here.

Krayt got up close not because he wanted to "feel her up", but for the same reason Luke did: he wanted to kill her, and he couldn't do it by himself. Staying at a distance wouldn't do anything to help Krayt, because Abeloth would kill Luke and then kill him. That was the point of the whole fight, Luke and Krayt needed each other, just like the Son and Daughter, just like Light and Dark are needed to maintain the balance in the universe.

That said, Krayt doesn't hold a candle to Sidious in sabers. Sidious has better strength feats, far greater speed feats, and better accolades (stated to be skilled in all forms of saber combat). Sidious wouldn't speed blitz Krayt, but he'd wreck him pretty bad in sabers.

In a force contest, well I'm pretty sure you know who is the more powerful dark sider, which is why you and everyone else who keeps arguing in favor of Krayt keeps harping on Krayt's healing ability with dark transfer, which has absolutely nothing to do with combat.

Maybe Sidious didn't master the ability to keep his body from dying, but he was definitely the dark lord that was harder to get rid of. Once Krayt's body was destroyed, he was gone for good. Sidious had his body destroyed about three times, but it didn't stop him from coming back.

Ms.smith, how about you go back to the battle bar and do what you do best: arguing and worrying about gays, because we all know it affects your life some type of way.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

That said, Krayt doesn't hold a candle to Sidious in sabers. Sidious has better strength feats, far greater speed feats, and better accolades (stated to be skilled in all forms of saber combat). Sidious wouldn't speed blitz Krayt, but he'd wreck him pretty bad in sabers.

Bah, that's easy to contest. Krayt *dominated* during his era. He killed 4 master-level foes while surrounded and not even looking at two of them, and that's not at his peak.

Sidious has multiple peers during his time, both Windu and Yoda hold their own against Sids just fine, and considering we know Dooku can hold off both of those in sabers he's not far behind either.

In Dark Empire, Luke beats him and slices his hand off.

Obviously, it is not some unheard of thing to match Sidious in sabers, and the idea that even someone as powerful in his era as Krayt- and even aside from his symbionts he was physically enhanced by the Vong, mind you- can't hold his own is kinda silly.

Unless you think that no-one outside the CW/Rebellion era can get to the Windu etc. level of skill, I don't think there's much argument for Sidious 'wrecking him' in sabers, especially with all of Krayt's feats.

In a force contest, well I'm pretty sure you know who is the more powerful dark sider, which is why you and everyone else who keeps arguing in favor of Krayt keeps harping on Krayt's healing ability with dark transfer, which has absolutely nothing to do with combat.

Except he's used it in combat, to kill.

And the various powers show Krayt has massive amounts of power in the dark side. Even a non-combat power, like galactic level telepathy, shows just how much power someone has in the force, and power in the force matters in a contest.

He has purely combat powers like shatterpoint and force absorption (one of approximately 5 characters in SW who's been seen to catch lightning bare-handed, and Sidious isn't one of those) too.

Maybe Sidious didn't master the ability to keep his body from dying, but he was definitely the dark lord that was harder to get rid of. Once Krayt's body was destroyed, he was gone for good. Sidious had his body destroyed about three times, but it didn't stop him from coming back.

And if he had Dark Transfer, his last one wouldn't have pretty much fallen apart under him. That's the kind of stuff DT can heal.

The main point is, this is something Sidious spent a lot of effort on and Krayt still managed to do even better in force skills in that area.

😐

Krayt being "unmatched" in his era in no way proves that he's a peer of Sidious, dude. Seriously, off the codpiece. Get off.

Originally posted by Unbowed
First of all, you just contested it. Don't backtrack now.

Uh, no, it was never contested.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Secondly, I never claimed the Dark Transfer puts Krayt above Sidious. I merely provided a perfect example of the "substance" you were asking for. You claimed there was no "substance" to the argument that Krayt was Sidious' peer.
Yet Sidious devoted his efforts towards finding an ability similar to Krayt's and came up short. What is that if not substance?

Since the claim was that Krayt is more powerful than Sidious, your "substance" is looking more like "substance abuse." Krayt's mastery of the 'dark transfer' technique in no way suggests superiority over Sidious in the general sense.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Like it or not, Krayt is at the very least Sidious' equal.

Like it or not, that claim is woefully unproven.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Sidious has the Force Storm, Krayt has the Dark Transfer. Neither ability puts one above the other, those are simply aplications of each character's respective power. I'm pretty sure Krayt could learn the Force Storm if he was taught by Sidious, and Sidious could learn the Dark Transfer if he was taught by Krayt.

Cool story, bro.

Sidious has greater feats and accolades to his name than does Krayt.

Originally posted by Unbowed
But they are not idle boasts, are they? After he came back Krayt was much stronger than previously, in body and in mind and in the Force. Cade was previously able to hold his own against Krayt. Yet in the last issue of War Krayt defeated a much stronger Cade without much effort.

Like it or not there is concrete evidence that Krayt came back much stronger, so his "multiplied" claim is not as far-fetched as you desperately want to imply.

All that proves is that Krayt came back stronger... which no one contested. All that's being contested is taking Krayt's words as literal truth. He can come back stronger without being twice as strong, let alone with his powers multiplied.

Curious: where offensive prowess(as is pertains to a battle/versus setting) is concerned, how is the ability to conjure a Force Storm not above the ability to use Dark Transfer?

That one is really making me scratch my head, because it makes no logical sense. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding..?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
😐

Krayt being "unmatched" in his era in no way proves that he's a peer of Sidious, dude. Seriously, off the codpiece. Get off.

If you're accusing someone of being on a star wars character's codpiece within just a few pages of interaction, your lack of self awareness becomes evident considering the amount of time you've spent "fellating" Sidious. Just saying.

No, Q and I have danced this little jig before, sweetheart. And his reasons for putting Krayt on par with Luke and Sidious are as weak now as they were then.

Now, if you're man enough to defend your armored boytoy, feel free to do so at any time. Otherwise, continue to ask me stupid questions and flee instead of actually contributing. 👆

But your nerd!rage that I'm picking on Krayt is really inappropriate. No one cares. Just saying.

Originally posted by Galan007
Curious: where offensive prowess(as is pertains to a battle/versus setting) is concerned, how is the ability to conjure a Force Storm not above the ability to use Dark Transfer?

That one is really making me scratch my head, because it makes no logical sense. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding..?

Debatable. Luke apparently was afraid of his students inadvertently making one, so he started his academy way out in Yavin IV. If the technique was so powerful and exclusive, his fears seem unfounded. Then again, using a Force 'apex', several students channeled the Force into Dorsk 81 and he did this:

So the power creep was already in place.

Wookiepedia suggests that the Emperor's Dark Side adepts could use lesser versions too, although they couldn't control them and the Emperor by comparison had some measure of control. I suspect it's a powerful esoteric ability, but it's not uncommon for some Force users to be more powerful in some areas and weaker in others, or for a lack of knowledge in one to make others have a better variety of rare abilities. Yaddle, for example, mastered Moricho, a technique Yoda and Mace neither used nor appeared to have mastered, but both of them could beat her ass in combat.

👆

But your nerd!rage that I'm picking on Krayt is really inappropriate. No one cares. Just saying.

Originally posted by Galan007
Curious: where offensive prowess(as is pertains to a battle/versus setting) is concerned, how is the ability to conjure a Force Storm not above the ability to use Dark Transfer?

That one is really making me scratch my head, because it makes no logical sense. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding..?

Oh, I agree that Force Storm... or rather I should say, DE Palpatine's force storm, there are lesser force storms, are better.

But when discussing Palps in general, I generally assume original-recipe rather than the clone (and Clone is, I shall note, still *very* defeatable in personal combat, as Luke showed! A Force storm is a big production that takes time to build and he can *barely* control, besides from that he's much as RotJ Palps), and second, they're different areas of the force.

Dark Transfer is the highest end medical/immortality application of the force we've seen. In that specific area of force skills, Krayt is the best.

Different force users are better at different things, and that's the area where he stands on the summit, just as Clone Palpatine stands at the summit of being able to create giant force storms.

Krayt announcing his presence to every dark sider in the galaxy in the force, is something that while I assume Sidious could do, is something that most sith can't, it's a very high-end ability and I don't think Dooku could. Luke did something similar and he was tired out by it (though Krayt was on Korriban, strong in the darkside, at at the time).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]
No, Q and I have danced this little jig before, sweetheart. And his reasons for putting Krayt on par with Luke and Sidious are as weak now as they were then.

Here's the thing: Your arguments are dismissing arguments as "irrelevant". They're pretty weak in the actual counter-arguments ('oh, sure, he may dominate everyone in his era, and they may in turn have tons of combat feats, and include a Skywalker who hunts sith for a living, but that doesn't mean that he can stand up to other strong people!'😉.. and have been responded to anyway (Legacy's got more crossover with other eras of note than pretty much any other, Luke says this, Caedus says that, Krayt himself was already solidly high in the B-list back when he was a fraction of his final self, etc. etc.).

A half-dozen reasons to counter your low-balling.

Even recently, I have brought in new data, quotes, and in-universe examples, in addition to prior stuff.

People in-universe, including Luke and Caedus, view him as massively powerful.

Heck, you want to view Sidious as stronger? Great. So do I, just not by much (There's a difference between saying who's stronger, and assuming they're in a whole other tier... when they've got multiple peers even in-era, and there's a character who has met both of them and regards both as dangerous threats).

You want to rate Maul better? To that I just laugh. He's only the third most powerful Sith of his time. He was totally eclipsed to a true top-tier sith like Sidious, or even Dooku. Krayt, on the other hand, was actively and directly shown to have high-end power when directly next to a person of high-end power and in the opinion of another very powerful sith.

Your arguments are too transparently based on bias, and rather large bias at this.

We've done this song and dance, but it's your moves that are weak, while I'm bringing up powers, abilities, and in-era rankings.

You can defend your side well enough, but your reasoning for downgrading the abilities of the opposition don't hold up.

Now, if you're man enough to defend your armored boytoy, feel free to do so at any time.

Heh, 'man.'

Anyway, it says a lot that you don't view bringing up examples of force powers and feats and in-universe status as defending, but you consider dismissing those same things for flimsy reasons- which in turn have been shot down in this very thread by multiple people- to be a good counter argument.

How is Krayt better at Dark Transfer than Cade?

Originally posted by Unbowed
The draining technique doesn't require physical contact, as evidenced by the fact that Luke was also affected by it, and Krayt didn't have his hand in Luke's stomach.

Most logical explanation is that Luke was affected by the drain because he was connected to Abeloth while he was wrestling with her. Making 'physical' contact as spirit forms is not the same as making contact as actual physical beings, as evident when Brand's spirit connected with Sidious's spirit; Brand stated that he felt like he was being eaten alive by the dark side, not because he fell to the dark side, but because his spirit was connected to Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt got up close not because he wanted to "feel her up", but for the same reason Luke did: he wanted to kill her

I know he wanted to kill her and he played a major role in killing her by draining her and weakening her. Why did he need to get up close to her in order to do that if he could have drained her at a distance?

Originally posted by Unbowed
and he couldn't do it by himself. Staying at a distance wouldn't do anything to help Krayt

Why not? If he could utilize drain at a distance as you claim, then why would the result be any different?

So I'll ask one last time, how will Krayt's fight with Abeloth as a spirit form help him here?

Originally posted by Unbowed
Sidious is probably better, but no one is getting "wrecked". Force users on that level don't wreck each other. Why? Because lightsaber ability is intimately tied with the Force. Virtually anyone we ever see that is very powerful in the Force( Sidious, Yoda, Vader, Dooku, Exar Kun, Bane etc.) is also a very good duelist.

What level is Krayt on? He certainly hasn't did anything in the comics to suggest that he is anywhere near the level of Sidious. Sorry, but being powerful in the force doesn't mean you can contend with Sidious in a saber duel. Sidious wrecked two powerful force users in sabers, both at the same time and individually (Maul, Savage), while he was toying around and not even trying to kill one of them.

Sidious has blitzed three council members, all of which have hype and/or feats to their name to suggest that they were some of the best swordsmen of all time. Fisto himself is without a doubt a peer of Kenobi, being able to casually handle Grievous. Kolar has stomped Vos almost as easily as Dooku has. And Tiin, while he lacks feats, is suggested in at least two sources to be one of the most powerful force users of his time--one of the sources being a comic strip tie-in to the older CW cartoons, which implied that his sheer raw power may have been greater than even Windu's. And while some of the feats in the older CW cartoons are arguably exaggerated, that doesn't mean we should ignore the implication: that Tiin was among one of the most powerful force users of his time. Yet all three of the masters mentioned all together were fodder for Sidious in a duel despite Windu being alongside them. Krayt has done absolutely nothing that compares saber-wise.

Originally posted by Unbowed
No, we don't know.

Yeah, we do. If we compare their feats, Palpatine beats him by miles. If we go on accolades, Palpatine has him beat there pretty solidly too.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt's "Force essence", as evidenced and implied in Apocalypse, is on the same level as Luke's.

Where is it evidenced at, and where has it been implied? Helping Luke bring down Abeloth by utilizing a technique against her--one which weakened her--that Luke couldn't use on her, does not put him on the same level as Luke. Luke needing his help does not make him a peer of Luke's either.

As far as Luke offering to share the throne of balance or whatever, well, that's obviously something Luke wouldn't offer Sidious, as Sidious existence and his deep connection to the dark side was a threat to the force. His very death is what brought balance to the force and defused the dark side throughout the galaxy, which was the very reason the force itself wanted to get rid of Sidious. So I guess since your going to make a comparison between Krayt and the son, I'll go ahead and make one between Sidious and Abeloth.

Originally posted by Unbowed
And the Dark Transfer is absolutely useful in combat.

Didn't say it didn't, but you guys keep harping on it's usefulness in healing (which has nothing to do with combat), and saying "well Sidious couldn't use this on his body, but Krayt could."

Originally posted by Unbowed
That's how Krayt killed(and brought back) Cade in the last issue of Legacy: War.

Krayt didn't kill Cade in the last issue. Cade was merely on the verge of death.

Originally posted by Unbowed
The Shatterpoint ability alone - which is tied into the Dark Transfer - is an incredible advantage in combat, as shown by Mace Windu.

Krayt is not Mace, and it'd be kinda hard to use shatterpoint in the middle of combat when your opponent is overwhelming you.

Originally posted by Unbowed
This is funny, because this also doesn't have anything to do with combat. Double standard?

I know it doesn't. I just brought it up to kill all the noise about Krayt being able to heal himself. I find it more impressive that one can come back after having his body destroyed.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Also, Sidious was able to come back because he had prepared clones of himself.

And Krayt had Cade around to learn about this dark transfer ability from, Sidious did not.

For the record, Sidious didn't have clones in handy during his first death on the Death Star, he had to survive and roam around bodiless as a spirit and then possess one of his hands in order to get to his clones.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt took no such contingencies

There is no proof that Krayt could have done it anyway, and if he could, why didn't he just survive as a spirit and possess one of his minions or something. I mean, there were plenty of other sith that were able to attach their spirit to something. Not Krayt. Once Krayt's body was destroyed, he was gone for good.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Good for Sidious I guess, but it has nothing to do with power.

And good for Krayt I guess, but it has nothing to do with power.

Originally posted by Ms.smith81992
Why do that when I can contribute to your years of embarrassing arguments here? We all have a good time with them.

But you're not contributing here though; but every time a conversation about gays pop up, you're the main one on board, quick with the long point by point replies. It's understandable, though, you're just more interested in topics about gays. There's nothing wrong with it, I'm just suggesting that you stick to conversations that you're more attracted to. At least you contribute to them.

So my feeling was right about you, Q99. lol

But you're not contributing here though; but every time a conversation about gays pop up, you're the main one on board, quick with the long point by point replies. It's understandable, though, you're just more interested in topics about gays. There's nothing wrong with it, I'm just suggesting that you stick to conversations that you're more attracted to. At least you contribute to them.