Originally posted by ares834
Ok... So nothing to go on. Plus Caedus doesn't actually say Krayt is more powerful or even as powerful. He says, "Sith are stronger."
Specifically as a reason why he thinks Krayt can do something Luke can't.
He's wrong, Luke manages too, but there's no way to take that 'sith are stronger' without including Krayt in the sith he's talking about.
There is also the matter that Jacen had a vision of Krayt conquering the galaxy during the era that Luke and Jacen would still be around. One Sith victory against Luke was strongly, explictly indicated to be possible.
Cool?No one said Luke could have beat Abeloth on his own.
No, but they have been saying that 'all Krayt did was drain while Luke did the 'hard work' of holder her down,' which is flat-out false. There was plenty of fighting outside the lock and even inside it Krayt did more than just drain, using as much strength as Luke, and taking about as much damage as Luke.
Hyperbole. While Krayt was undoubtedly more powerful, based on his fights he certainly didn't show anything to suggest he truly was multiple times as powerful. [/B]
Actually, Krayt doesn't say multiplied anyway. What he does say is he is 'so much more' than he was before.
So, yes.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
👆To the Krayt faction: more substance, less substance abuse please.
Q99, as usual, all you've proven is that Krayt isn't fodder (which no one has contended). But he's not equal to Luke or Sidious, who are each endowed with better feats and narrative accolades across the board.
Oh please, this is more not counting stuff because it's Legacy.
You cannot tell me that one could even possibly mistake Maul for a threat to Luke.
Back in the clone wars he was a solid sword fighter, when was a padawan he beat Aurra Sing, who almost killed Qui-Gon Jinn. Before he studied under the teachings of one of the sith greaters for decades, before he was physically enhanced by the Vong so he could even survive his symbionts, before he spent a century studying the dark side and fighting constantly with the force until he got to a point to throw off his symbionts, grow to his full power, and achieve self-resurrection, something that both Sidious and Plaguies sought and did not achieve.
Krayt has done multiple force feats that only top tier force users have ever done, galactic mass communication and resurrection.
Darth Krayt dominates an era and beats many strong foes who in turn has significant victories under their belts. He has no problem blitzing groups of masters, and has effectively pushed at least some areas of the dark side further than anyone did before.
'Not fodder'? Darth Azard is not fodder. Darth Stryfe is not fodder. Darth Krayt is a top tier sith.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]👆To the Krayt faction: more substance, less substance abuse please.
Clearly, Krayt successfully achieving something the Banite Sith - including Sidious - always wanted but never got is not substance. Krayt going toe to toe with Abeloth - the 2nd most powerful entity in the SW universe - and hurting her more than Luke ever could is not substance.
Krayt's mastery of the higher Force arts, like resurrection, Dark Transfer, Force Drain, or Shatterpoint doesn't mean a thing. Clearly we need to see him levitating a huge rock before he could be considered top tier. 🙄
I mean what kind of logic is that? "Telekinetic feats" make one more powerful than mastering the deepest, most esoteric mysteries of the Force? 🙄
Originally posted by Q99
Actually, Krayt doesn't say multiplied anyway. What he does say is he is 'so much more' than he was before.So, yes.
"I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied. The dark side of the Force lives and manifests itself through me! I reach into the dark side now and send ripples through it to all who serve it—know that I live!"
Jesus H. Christ, Q, feel free to dismount from Krayt's armored codpiece at any time.
I didn't say he wasn't top tier Sith or that he'd lose to Maul. I just take issue with your backhanded arguments and oh-so-subtle insinuations that he's equal to Luke and Sidious. He's not.
Ares has already shredded your arguments and you yourself set fire to the pieces by your quiet concessions that Krayt is on par with Luke based on Caedus's fallible (and ultimately disproven) opinion.
Originally posted by Unbowed
That's a very well thought out argument.Clearly, Krayt successfully achieving something the Banite Sith - including Sidious - always wanted but never got is not substance.
lol
The Banite Sith wanted to live forever. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, bro, but I guess your masturbatory fetish for Krayt carried you only half way through the last issue of War.
Spoiler:
Krayt dies.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt going toe to toe with Abeloth - the 2nd most powerful entity in the SW universe - and hurting her more than Luke ever could is not substance.
Not when Luke was doing the heavy lifting, no.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Krayt's mastery of the higher Force arts, like resurrection, Dark Transfer, Force Drain, or Shatterpoint doesn't mean a thing. Clearly we need to see him levitating a huge rock before he could be considered top tier. 🙄
Never said he wasn't top tier; your mancrush is getting the better of you.
Originally posted by Unbowed
I mean what kind of logic is that? "Telekinetic feats" make one more powerful than mastering the deepest, most esoteric mysteries of the Force? 🙄
Never said that either, peaches.
Unbowed
Well actually he does. It's in Legacy #50 IIRC, when he reaches out to everyone touched by the Dark side.
Good to know that the deranged boasts of a megalomaniac are to be considered gospel. Hey, guess what? In ROTS, a G-canon source, no less, Palpatine claims to possess "unlimited power!"
Since this is obviously, irrefutably, factually true... Sidious > Abeloth > Krayt.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
lolThe Banite Sith wanted to live forever. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, bro, but I guess your masturbatory fetish for Krayt carried you only half way through the last issue of War.
Spoiler:
Krayt dies.
Not when Luke was doing the heavy lifting, no.
Originally posted by The_Tempest Good to know that the deranged boasts of a megalomaniac are to be considered gospel. Hey, guess what? In ROTS, a G-canon source, no less, Palpatine claims to possess "unlimited power!"
But why am I surprised that the nuances of that are lost on someone who thought the "pinning grizzly bear/shooting it with a gun" analogy was appropriate.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin also said his power was doubled since he last met the Count... which was in Season 4 of TCW.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Spare me. Everyone dies, especially villains.
Your desperate handwaving Krayt's failures on external literary tropes is hilarious.
Originally posted by Unbowed
The strongest Sith of the Banite line wanted an ability that allowed them to save themselves or others from death. Krayt got that. Sidious never did. Accept it and move on.
lol
Again, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Sidious not only survived physical death (Dark Empire), he learned to save others from it as well (Darksaber).
Originally posted by Unbowed
You keep saying, but without any proof. The text is clear as day. Krayt did as much "heavy lifting" as Luke, but he also drained her on top of that.
Not really, no. As Ares pointed out, the text indicates that Luke did most of the restraining. So while the text is indeed as clear as day, it might be obfuscated by your refusal to remove your head from Krayt's cavernous ass crack.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Except that infinity is a completely abstract term, and obviously unachievable in any context. Saying your power multiplied is a much more specific, grounded statement.
Ah, so a deranged boast from a megalomaniac is only gospel if it is slightly more believable than another deranged boast from another megalomaniac? Nice shuffling of the goalpost there. You'll fit in nicely with the rest of the Krayt faction.
Originally posted by Unbowed
But why am I surprised that the nuances of that are lost on someone who thought the "pinning grizzly bear/shooting it with a gun" analogy was appropriate.
Well we can't all conjure such brilliant arguments as "WELL OF COURSE KRAYT DIES HES THE BAD GUY DUHHH."
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your desperate handwaving Krayt's failures on external literary tropes is hilarious.
lol Again, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Sidious not only survived physical death (Dark Empire), he learned to save others from it as well (Darksaber).
Not really, no. As Ares pointed out, the text indicates that Luke did most of the restraining. So while the text is indeed as clear as day, it might be obfuscated by your refusal to remove your head from Krayt's cavernous ass crack.
Ah, so a deranged boast from a megalomaniac is only gospel if it is slightly more believable than another deranged boast from another megalomaniac? Nice shuffling of the goalpost there. You'll fit in nicely with the rest of the Krayt faction.
Well we can't all conjure such brilliant arguments as "WELL OF COURSE KRAYT DIES HES THE BAD GUY DUHHH."
Originally posted by Unbowed
Yet nevertheless true.
And completely irrelevant.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Again, you are missing the point(shocker). Sidious and Plagueis both wanted the ability to perpetuate themselves forever. Plagueis wasn't able to discover the secret before Sidious disposed of him, and Sidious didn't even came close to his master's talent for midichlorian manipulation, so Sidious was forced to use an inferior alternative, the Essence Transfer. And it was obviously less than ideal, since Sidious came back batshit insane and his clones were degrading very fast.
So yes, Krayt achieved an ability that the great Sidious, the one who supposedly "mastered every technique and could create new ones at his leisure" never did.
facepalm
Right, and Sidious could solo fleets and tear the surfaces off worlds... something neither Krayt nor Abeloth have demonstrated. The fact that Krayt demonstrated an ability Sidious didn't is not only irrelevant to the discussion but was something never contested by anyone here. All that was said is that Sidious demonstrates superiority in feats and accolades, which is true, and doesn't preclude the idea that Krayt is more proficient in other areas.
Originally posted by Unbowed
The text doesn't indicate such a thing, and Ares is wrong.
lol
I'll leave that to you and the God of War.
Originally posted by Unbowed
It isn't "slightly more believable". Saying you have "UNLIMITED POWAH!" is an incredibly absurd and fallacious statement. It can't possibly be true.
There is nothing wrong with saying you multiplied your power, especially since we know Sidious himself came back from death stronger in Dark Empire. The two statements aren't even in the same ballpark.
And Krayt is far less of a megalomaniac than mr. "I'll be immortal and consume all life in the universe forever".
Doesn't matter, peaches. The point is that, for all we know, it could be the idle boasts of a deranged loon. Sidious didn't return stronger postmortem, that was the result of his studies on Byss. And even if War!Krayt is stronger than Legacy!Krayt & Apocalypse!Krayt (which was, again, never contested), you have no way of remotely quantifying how much more powerful he was than his earlier incarnations, as the adjective "multiplied" could be exaggerated.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Indeed we can't, and what a shame it is. I expected more from the brilliant mind behind "cavernous ass crack" and "armored codpiece".
We all can't use ill-conceived attempts at humor in lieu of logical arguments and facts when debating.
Nah, those would be jabs and taunts in the midst of tearing your argument asunder with my ferocious Claws of Logic (+4 attack bonus). excellent
And even if you didn't like it, it's still better than an unattached emoticon. 🙄
Doesn't matter, peaches. The point is that, for all we know, it could be the idle boasts of a deranged loon. Sidious didn't return stronger postmortem, that was the result of his studies on Byss. And even if War!Krayt is stronger than Legacy!Krayt & Apocalypse!Krayt (which was, again, never contested), you have no way of remotely quantifying how much more powerful he was than his earlier incarnations, as the adjective "multiplied" could be exaggerated.
But, we know he was very strong back as a padawan and knight.
Then he got a major about of new force training, and grew more powerful. Then he got literally physically modified into being stronger. Then he got a lot more experience and even more practice- and at this point he was able to contribute as much to a fight against a powerful foe as Luke Skywalker did- and, though he then got more sick, he eventually got a big boost over that level.
Just how many tiers can there be between "Powerful CW Jedi Master," and ""Actual top tier ala Palps and so on"? Because Krayt's moved up at least three.
Intrepid
Hett lost to Sing.
No, Sharad Hett, his father, lost to Sing.
A'Sharad Hett beat her. Actually, he fought her twice- first time, he lept in and disarmed her after she stabbed Sharad, he grabbed her by the neck, and hesitated before killing her, giving her the opportunity to escape.
Second time, as a knight, he fought her and knocked her unconscious.
The Tempestlol
The Banite Sith wanted to live forever. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, bro, but I guess your masturbatory fetish for Krayt carried you only half way through the last issue of War.
You're dodging the point, namely he succeeded in a technique they did not, in an area they were studying. This technique did not make him unkillable, but it was an area where he surpassed them, and it was a powerful technique offensively as well as it's resurrection properties.
Even Palpatine, who knew essence transfer, had his bodies constantly degrade, which Krayt could've healed easily with his power.
And did you miss the part of War where they literally threw his body into the sun because he would come back otherwise? With Cade wrestling with his spirit with the help of Luke's spirit the whole time?
Originally posted by Q99
But, we know he was very strong back as a padawan and knight.Then he got a major about of new force training, and grew more powerful. Then he got literally physically modified into being stronger. Then he got a lot more experience and even more practice- and at this point he was able to contribute as much to a fight against a powerful foe as Luke Skywalker did- and, though he then got more sick, he eventually got a big boost over that level.
Just how many tiers can there be between "Powerful CW Jedi Master," and ""Actual top tier ala Palps and so on"? Because Krayt's moved up at least three.
Not sure, but one could present the argument that there are many. Either way, no one here has actually disputed the idea that Krayt isn't among the upper echelons.
Originally posted by Q99
You're dodging the point, namely he succeeded in a technique they did not, in an area they were studying. This technique did not make him unkillable, but it was an area where he surpassed them, and it was a powerful technique offensively as well as it's resurrection properties.Even Palpatine, who knew essence transfer, had his bodies constantly degrade, which Krayt could've healed easily with his power.
And did you miss the part of War where they literally threw his body into the sun because he would come back otherwise? With Cade wrestling with his spirit with the help of Luke's spirit the whole time?
Uh, no, I'm not dodging anything. In fact, I already acknowledged that Krayt demonstrated abilities Sidious/Luke didn't... but then I continued, pointing to the painfully obvious fact that that doesn't change the latter characters' general, broad superiority to Krayt at all.
The benefit of arguing for Luke and Sidious, who are infinitely more popular and important characters to the mythology, is that I have a wealth of accolades and feats to draw from. No dodging is necessary; I can simply steamroll the opposition.
Originally posted by The_TempestRight, and Sidious could solo fleets and tear the surfaces off worlds... something neither Krayt nor Abeloth have demonstrated. The fact that Krayt demonstrated an ability Sidious didn't is not only irrelevant to the discussion but was something never contested by anyone here. All that was said is that Sidious demonstrates superiority in feats and accolades, which is true, and doesn't preclude the idea that Krayt is more proficient in other areas.
Like it or not, Krayt is at the very least Sidious' equal. Sidious has the Force Storm, Krayt has the Dark Transfer. Neither ability puts one above the other, those are simply aplications of each character's respective power. I'm pretty sure Krayt could learn the Force Storm if he was taught by Sidious, and Sidious could learn the Dark Transfer if he was taught by Krayt.
Doesn't matter, peaches. The point is that, for all we know, it could be the idle boasts of a deranged loon. Sidious didn't return stronger postmortem, that was the result of his studies on Byss. And even if War!Krayt is stronger than Legacy!Krayt & Apocalypse!Krayt (which was, again, never contested), you have no way of remotely quantifying how much more powerful he was than his earlier incarnations, as the adjective "multiplied" could be exaggerated.
Like it or not there is concrete evidence that Krayt came back much stronger, so his "multiplied" claim is not as far-fetched as you desperately want to imply.
Originally posted by Petrus
Using Abeloth is not going to convince anyone that Krayt is more powerful or equal to Luke or Sidious. We all know her being "twelve times" more powerful than Luke didn't work out quite well during fights, so your comment 'the 2nd most powerful entity' doesn't count for much.
