Darth Maul vs Darth Krayt

But not in the fight in question.

Two of the Jedi did not move beyond having their sabers out. And Kit Fisto died within seconds after blocking like 1-2 swipes. I'm ignoring that, excepting his fight against non-Force sensitive, even Ahsoka has beaten my ass Grievous, Fisto hasn't beaten anyone of note. Ventress beat his ass like a rented drum. So you have two morons, and an above average Jedi, all died while not doing anything tactically smart, and somehow Sidious is a better fighter because of their idiocy.

I don't get how you can say Sidious' demonstration was exceptional when his opponents showed no defensive capability whatsoever. It would be like curbstomping a baby and going "I rule. Look at how strong my Kung Fu is against this non-defense forming baby".

EDIT: Wait no, let me rephrase that. The baby has a single line from a novel or supplement, saying they are the best kung fu expert the galaxy has ever seen, even if that is an entirely informed ability without any proof.

Sounds a lot like Marka Ragnos to me.

And we're back to that age-old impasse: I'm disinclined to give one group (Ragnos, the ancient Sith, etc.) the benefit of the doubt and not another (movie characters you don't like).

That's the only double standard at play here.

Ahsoka didn't beat Grievous. She just did ok against him. He was winning iirc.

👆

And Ventress didn't beat Fisto's ass "like a rented drum" in The Cestus Deception either.

Still pathetic that she was able to throw him bodily backwards in a saberlock.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Sounds a lot like Marka Ragnos to me.

And we're back to that age-old impasse: I'm disinclined to give one group (Ragnos, the ancient Sith, etc.) the benefit of the doubt and not another (movie characters you don't like).

That's the only double standard at play here.

I'm not even sure why you brought this up, but the fact that you've moved the argument to me instead of debating the issue at hand says a lot.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ahsoka didn't beat Grievous. She just did ok against him. He was winning iirc.

My mistake. I remember her doing surprisingly well.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
👆

And Ventress didn't beat Fisto's ass "like a rented drum" in The Cestus Deception either.

Yes, yes she did.

Yeah, visual Star Wars has always been pretty bizarre when it comes to feats of physical strength.

But I chalk it up to the inherent advantage of a talented Force user over a Muggle.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm not even sure why you brought this up, but the fact that you've moved the argument to me instead of debating the issue at hand says a lot.

Concession accepted.

To illustrate the error of your logic. You're cherrypicking the B-Team's accomplishments, dismissing their station as the result of "informed ability without proof."

Since you're a proponent of single standards, we must apply the same to Marka Ragnos.

Or you can just accept that maybe movie characters aren't weak feebs who are always outmatched by EU characters and we can move on?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes, yes she did.

No, no she didn't. And we already have proof that your recollection about fights is questionable.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
To illustrate the error of your logic. You're cherrypicking the B-Team's accomplishments, dismissing their station as the result of "informed ability without proof."

Instead of simply taking their supposed skills at face value because of a single quote, I used my eyes and analyzed the source material. Because I don't understand the idea of being biased to them unless I was biased towards Sidious; he's the only one who stands to benefit from them being propped up.

Since you're a proponent of single standards, we must apply the same to Marka Ragnos.

Ragnos' badassery is an informed attribute, since he's never on screen. That's not even contested. The difference is Ragnos' informed abilities are much higher than being 'good swordsmen in an era of peace keeping, non-Sith slaying Jedi' and he didn't die looking like a moron.

Or you can just accept that maybe movie characters aren't weak feebs who aren't always outmatched by EU characters and we can move on?

Or you could you know, examine the source material. They showed little if no defense against a clearly telegraphed attack. They did not have the advantage, they did not get in any strikes, and they did not have any showings to make them above 'elite mooks'.

No, no she didn't. And we already have proof that your recollection about fights is questionable.

I didn't remember one event correctly on a character I don't even care about (Ahsoka); I've read The Cestus Deception three times. It's unlikely that I am not remembering it correctly in comparison.

It seems like the Krayt faction are very quick to lowball Palpatine whenever possible, but completely ignore the fact that the IKs Krayt killed have absolutely no feats to their credit. None. Incessant red herrings will not change this, I'm afraid.

...Yet for some reason I am supposed to believe that Krayt killing them equates to some "Z0MG TEH UBER!!!11!!1!" feat beyond what Palpatine did? Why, exactly, should I place featless/accoladeless wonders above the established Jedi Masters(whom actually do possess quantifiable feats/accolades) that Palpatine killed?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ragnos' badassery is an informed attribute, since he's never on screen. That's not even contested. The difference is Ragnos' informed abilities are much higher than being 'good swordsmen in an era of peace keeping, non-Sith slaying Jedi' and he didn't die looking like a moron.

He did when a 14 year old kicked his ass.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Or you could you know, examine the source material. They showed little if no defense against a clearly telegraphed attack. They did not have the advantage, they did not get in any strikes, and they did not have any showings to make them above 'elite mooks'.

They showed no defense because Sidious was too fast for them to mount any kind of defense. The scene is just terribly directed.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Instead of simply taking their supposed skills at face value because of a single quote, I used my eyes and analyzed the source material. Because I don't understand the idea of being biased to them unless I was biased towards Sidious; he's the only one who stands to benefit from them being propped up.

The problem is that the accolades and feats attributable to the B-Team also comes from "source material." In this case, when you say "source material," what you mean is that you're drawing conclusions based on a single, poorly choreographed sequence alone as though that constitutes the entirety of the B-Team's appearances. It doesn't. In other words, you're cherrypicking, and pretty blatantly.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ragnos' badassery is an informed attribute, since he's never on screen. That's not even contested. The difference is Ragnos' informed abilities are much higher than being 'good swordsmen in an era of peace keeping, non-Sith slaying Jedi' and he didn't die looking like a moron.

Actually, Ragnos is depicted on-screen a handful of times, just never in the flesh. And in a mythology wherein even shades and spirits can manifest their powers immensely, Ragnos's lack of impressive feats really isn't excusable.

And the fact that Ragnos's "informed abilities" are "much higher" than the B-Team's is not reason enough to believe them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Or you could you know, examine the source material.

So could you. Like, all of it. And not just the lone instance that vaguely supports your anti-movie bias.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
They showed little if no defense against a clearly telegraphed attack. They did not have the advantage, they did not get in any strikes, and they did not have any showings to make them above 'elite mooks'.

Cool story bro.

Don't conflate poor choreography with the gospel truth. We've seen evidence of the B-Team's immense skill in other media and multiple sources confirm their station. Not to mention that, per Lucas, the intent of the scene was not to depict Jedi incompetence but the fact that they were simply not up to par with Palpatine. The inability to contend with Darth Sidious does not equate to mediocrity. That has been reiterated again and again and again; I'm not sure why you refuse to accept it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I didn't remember one event correctly on a character I don't even care about (Ahsoka); I've read The Cestus Deception three times. It's unlikely that I am not remembering it correctly in comparison.

You are.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He did when a 14 year old kicked his ass.

They showed no defense because Sidious was too fast for them to mount any kind of defense. The scene is just terribly directed.

My Jaden Korr was 49.

Also, using meta to justify Sidious' feat is kinda lame. By this kind of logic, ANH Obi-Wan is a saber god, and it was the lack of technology which inhibited his true showings.

ANH Obi-Wan then can be said to have stalemated Vader, who is amazing, and therefore can defeat anyone but the Emperor.

Assumptions are awesome.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The problem is that the accolades and feats attributable to the B-Team also comes from "source material." In this case, when you say "source material," what you mean is that you're drawing conclusions based on a single, poorly choreographed sequence alone as though that constitutes the entirety of the B-Team's appearances. It doesn't. In other words, you're cherrypicking, and pretty blatantly.

Aside from Fisto's fight against Grievous, the scene is the highest canon. Trying to smudge the details instead of analyzing it for what it really is (a representation of how the fight went down) is favoring the interpretation which best fits your bias; not the one which the evidence best indicates.

When you watch the scene, it does not say "Sidious was SO fast he could overwhelm them"; it says "Wow, they were complete tools and Sidious bumrushed them; oh look, Mace is a badass. He can contend". GL has spent money to make Han Solo shoot second; if he intended to showcase Sidious' speed, he could do it much more convincingly. Case in point - TPM speed feat of Obi and Qui-Gon against droids.

Use Ockham's Razor here.

Actually, Ragnos is depicted on-screen a handful of times, just never in the flesh. And in a mythology wherein even shades and spirits can manifest their powers immensely, Ragnos's lack of impressive feats really isn't excusable.

And the fact that Ragnos's "informed abilities" are "much higher" than the B-Team's is not reason enough to believe them.

K.

I'm not going to derail this into Ragnos defense. It's a tired old argument and I'm bored of it.

So could you. Like, all of it. And not just the lone instance that vaguely supports your anti-movie bias.

Which is funny, given that most of my favorite characters are movie characters. I like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and Dooku far better than Revan, or Malak, or Kun etc. I haven't even bothered to study Krayt; I'm simply weighing in on the 'OMG SIDIOUS SPEED FEAT" argument because it's being grossly misinterpreted by those with an obvious agenda. I've even said before (which everyone seems to be ignoring) that I am not arguing for the Imperial Knights. I'm arguing in favor of some common sense here.

You would do better using the Clone Wars series to showcase Sidious' saber skills. His domination of Maul and Opress is far better handled and the two are much better fleshed out as fighters than the B-Team of elite mooks here.

Cool story bro.

Don't conflate poor choreography with the gospel truth. We've seen evidence of the B-Team's immense skill in other media and multiple sources confirm their station. Not to mention that, per Lucas, the intent of the scene was not to depict Jedi incompetence but the fact that they were simply not up to par with Palpatine. The inability to contend with Darth Sidious does not equate to mediocrity. That has been reiterated again and again and again; I'm not sure why you refuse to accept it.

No one is saying that had to be 'up to par with Palpatine. You seem to be confusing the idea that his dominance of them is representative of his speed, but the fact is, he is not that fast. Comparatively, Bane or Hestizo Trace have better speed feats, the latter against multiple opponents. Second, when it comes to his technical ability, again, this is not the best fight to showcase. His opponents reacted barely if at all, with only Kit Fisto getting a parry off and Mace Windu showing the most amount of sentience.

FFS, Sidious ignited his saber, flew across the room, then ran up to them, stopped, reared his arm back to stab, stabbed, and they did nothing. These are Jedi who can deflect blaster bolts, fly ships with inhuman speed and reflexes, and can see slightly into the future.

Unless Sidious cast "Time Stop", I don't see any reason why I should conclude his feat to anything but stupidity.

You are.

Scan the page then.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
My Jaden Korr was 49.

Also, using meta to justify Sidious' feat is kinda lame. By this kind of logic, ANH Obi-Wan is a saber god, and it was the lack of technology which inhibited his true showings.

ANH Obi-Wan then can be said to have stalemated Vader, who is amazing, and therefore can defeat anyone but the Emperor.

Assumptions are awesome.

Apparently the age given for him in the novel means that he would have been 14 when he fought Ragnos.

But thats true though. At least the part about Ben Kenobi being pretty good and just appearing crappy because of technology and stuff.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
My Jaden Korr was 49.

Also, using meta to justify Sidious' feat is kinda lame. By this kind of logic, ANH Obi-Wan is a saber god, and it was the lack of technology which inhibited his true showings.

ANH Obi-Wan then can be said to have stalemated Vader, who is amazing, and therefore can defeat anyone but the Emperor.

Assumptions are awesome.

Your butthurt is showing; specifics aside, there is no reason to conclude ANH!Obi-Wan or Vader suck simply because 40+ year old technology and choreography was unable to properly convey their formidable talents. Particularly when the surrounding source material goes to great lengths to emphasize that these two weren't shitty fighters as was portrayed on screen.

Stealth Moose
Aside from Fisto's fight against Grievous, the scene is the highest canon. Trying to smudge the details instead of analyzing it for what it really is (a representation of how the fight went down) is favoring the interpretation which best fits your bias; not the one which the evidence best indicates.

The inherent, damning problem with your argument, of course, is that it all comes to rest on your interpretation of a poorly choreographed scene. The scene is G-canon; your interpretation of it is somewhere between non-canon and LOLHELLNO-canon.

Meanwhile, I have a multitude of valid canonical sources at my disposal that attest to the B-Team's skill.

Stealth Moose
When you watch the scene, it does not say "Sidious was SO fast he could overwhelm them"; it says "Wow, they were complete tools and Sidious bumrushed them; oh look, Mace is a badass. He can contend". GL has spent money to make Han Solo shoot second; if he intended to showcase Sidious' speed, he could do it much more convincingly. Case in point - TPM speed feat of Obi and Qui-Gon against droids.

Use Ockham's Razor here.

And Mace would gather "complete tools" to arrest an alleged Sith Master, why? Your argument defeats itself; in-universe and out-of-universe, there is literally no reason to believe the B-Team are incompetent hacks.

At the end of the day, I'm armed with a number of canon sources, reason, and Word of God. What do you have?

Stealth Moose
Which is funny, given that most of my favorite characters are movie characters. I like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and Dooku far better than Revan, or Malak, or Kun etc. I haven't even bothered to study Krayt; I'm simply weighing in on the 'OMG SIDIOUS SPEED FEAT" argument because it's being grossly misinterpreted by those with an obvious agenda. I've even said before (which everyone seems to be ignoring) that I am not arguing for the Imperial Knights. I'm arguing in favor of some common sense here.

Common sense would dictate that Mace Windu would not recruit three mentally handicapped monks, hand them a laser sword, and move to arrest the most dangerous man in the galaxy. Common sense would dictate that the number of sources attesting to the skill of these men would undermine the notion that they are talentless hacks. Common sense would dictate that if George Lucas himself goes on-record to say that the only reason the B-Team lost was because "you have to be Mace or Yoda [i.e. the very damn best] to compete with Palpatine," then you have little ground to claim that these guys aren't good.

Stealth Moose
You would do better using the Clone Wars series to showcase Sidious' saber skills. His domination of Maul and Opress is far better handled and the two are much better fleshed out as fighters than the B-Team of elite mooks here.

And as you yourself say, Sidious was toying with those two the entire time; there's no telling how quickly they'd have fallen had he went for the kill as he did with the B-Team.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No one is saying that had to be 'up to par with Palpatine. You seem to be confusing the idea that his dominance of them is representative of his speed, but the fact is, he is not that fast.

There is a wealth of evidence to the contrary; Sidious really is that fast, you just don't want him to be.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Comparatively, Bane or Hestizo Trace have better speed feats, the latter against multiple opponents. Second, when it comes to his technical ability, again, this is not the best fight to showcase. His opponents reacted barely if at all, with only Kit Fisto getting a parry off and Mace Windu showing the most amount of sentience.

The tactical acumen of these warriors is not what's being debated. Their skill and talent as warriors is. There's canonical evidence that they are enormously talented fighters.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
FFS, Sidious ignited his saber, flew across the room, then ran up to them, stopped, reared his arm back to stab, stabbed, and they did [b]nothing. These are Jedi who can deflect blaster bolts, fly ships with inhuman speed and reflexes, and can see slightly into the future.

Unless Sidious cast "Time Stop", I don't see any reason why I should conclude his feat to anything but stupidity.[/b]

You don't see reason because you refuse to on principle on this subject. Which is fine. But the bottom line is that your interpretation is totally irrelevant and meaningless when valid canonical interpretation disagrees.

Stealth Moose
Scan the page then.

It's been copied and pasted here before; I'll find it later.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Apparently the age given for him in the novel means that he would have been 14 when he fought Ragnos.

But thats true though. At least the part about Ben Kenobi being pretty good and just appearing crappy because of technology and stuff.

Is the novel any different compared to the game? I haven't read it.

Also, again, we're making an assumption based on our own views on 'crappy combat mechanics'. If we apply this, without guidelines, how should we interpret every other fight? Is Dooku a technically superior fighter to Anakin who just got unlucky? Is Yoda better than Sidious conclusively with a saber? You can 'assume' a great deal; but without explicit evidence, it's not quite close to being objective.

For example:

There's a difference between saying ANH Obi-Wan is able to hold his own against Vader versus...

Saying ANH Obi-Wan is a great swordsman who has unshown but obviously inferred ability who could defeat anyone Vader could beat, on the basis of his few saber crossings in the film.

I take the same issue with this blitz feat. Specifically, it wasn't due to superior speed or technical skill. The enemies were just unresponsive. And given that one is already an established duelist and another is an ace pilot, this lapse seems entirely unexplained.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your butthurt is showing; specifics aside, there is no reason to conclude ANH!Obi-Wan or Vader suck simply because 40+ year old technology and choreography was unable to properly convey their formidable talents. Particularly when the surrounding source material goes to great lengths to emphasize that these two weren't shitty fighters as was portrayed on screen.

The inherent, damning problem with your argument, of course, is that it all comes to rest on your interpretation of a poorly choreographed scene. The scene is G-canon; your interpretation of it is somewhere between non-canon and LOLHELLNO-canon.

Meanwhile, I have a multitude of valid canonical sources at my disposal that attest to the B-Team's skill.

And Mace would gather "complete tools" to arrest an alleged Sith Master, why? Your argument defeats itself; in-universe and out-of-universe, there is literally no reason to believe the B-Team are incompetent hacks.

At the end of the day, I'm armed with a number of canon sources, reason, and Word of God. What do you have?

Common sense would dictate that Mace Windu would not recruit three mentally handicapped monks, hand them a laser sword, and move to arrest the most dangerous man in the galaxy. Common sense would dictate that the number of sources attesting to the skill of these men would undermine the notion that they are talentless hacks. Common sense would dictate that if George Lucas himself goes on-record to say that the only reason the B-Team lost was because "you have to be Mace or Yoda [i.e. the very damn best] to compete with Palpatine," then you have little ground to claim that these guys aren't good.

And as you yourself say, Sidious was toying with those two the entire time; there's no telling how quickly they'd have fallen had he went for the kill as he did with the B-Team.

There is a wealth of evidence to the contrary; Sidious really is that fast, you just don't want him to be.

The tactical acumen of these warriors is not what's being debated. Their skill and talent as warriors is. There's canonical evidence that they are enormously talented fighters.

You don't see reason because you refuse to on principle on this subject. Which is fine. But the bottom line is that your interpretation is totally irrelevant and meaningless when valid canonical interpretation disagrees.

It's been copied and pasted here before; I'll find it later.

K.

If we have reason to believe that a lackluster performance is the result of "crappy mechanics," then I don't see why not.

No one is suggesting that we interpret all piss-poor performances as such; only the ones in which such explanations have been offered.

ANH!Vader comes off looking like a clumsy hack in the films; we know that this is solely the result of limited technology. Which is why in the surrounding EU and subsequent visual media, Vader comes off looking much more impressive. Hell, even the screenplays convey a level of ferocity and skill that the films themselves fail to communicate.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Is the novel any different compared to the game? I haven't read it.

Also, again, we're making an assumption based on our own views on 'crappy combat mechanics'. If we apply this, without guidelines, how should we interpret every other fight? Is Dooku a technically superior fighter to Anakin who just got unlucky? Is Yoda better than Sidious conclusively with a saber? You can 'assume' a great deal; but without explicit evidence, it's not quite close to being objective.

For example:

There's a difference between saying ANH Obi-Wan is able to hold his own against Vader versus...

Saying ANH Obi-Wan is a great swordsman who has unshown but obviously inferred ability who could defeat anyone Vader could beat, on the basis of his few saber crossings in the film.

I take the same issue with this blitz feat. Specifically, it wasn't due to superior speed or technical skill. The enemies were just unresponsive. And given that one is already an established duelist and another is an ace pilot, this lapse seems entirely unexplained.

The novel takes place a few decades after the game while Jaden takes on a different adventure. Jaden is canonically a male human because of course he is. I believe Galen knows a lot about it.

I'm not assuming anything, canonical statements in sourcebooks and from various authorities state this as fact.

The lapse is explained. You just don't like the explanation.

A New Hope
INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- HALLWAY LEADING TO MAIN FORWARD BAY.

Ben hurries along one of the tunnels leading to the hangar
where the pirateship waits. Just before he reaches the hangar,
Darth Vader steps into view at the end of the tunnel, not ten
feet away. Vader lights his saber. Ben also ignites his and
steps slowly forward.

VADER: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The
circle is now complete.

Ben Kenobi moves with elegant ease into a classical
offensive position. The fearsome Dark Knight takes a defensive
stance.

VADER: When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master.

BEN: Only a master of evil, Darth.

The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few
moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right
moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain,
as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He
shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes.
Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked
by a lightning movement of The Sith. A masterful slash stroke
by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's
blows is blocked, then countered. Ben moves around the Dark
Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar. The
two powerful warriors stand motionless for a few moments with
laser swords locked in mid-air, creating a low buzzing sound.

VADER: Your powers are weak, old man.

BEN: You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more
powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Their lightsabers continue to meet in combat.

These are not adjectives I'd apply to what I watched in the movie, but it and others are down on the paper.