Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, the choreography in that duel was god awful. That said in the film they weren't in the hall but in the Chancellor's room.Krayt was hard-pressed by a holocron... 😐
Isn't lowballing fun?
Look again: they were clustered against the opening of the hall adjacent to his office, and had little room in which to move. If you take four guys, give them laser swords, and have them bunch up, they can't defend themselves as well without compromising each other. The environment, and their obvious inability to react whatsoever for the some odd seconds after he ignited his saber and flew at them, heavily favored the Chancellor.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
There aren't any.
Perhaps from where you're standing.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Perhaps from where you're standing.
Which is where?
The unassailable, inarguable fact is that the B-Team have impressive accolades and feats attached to them whereas (as far as I can recall) the Knights butchered by Krayt have neither. From what we know, Sidious's feat is vastly more impressive than Krayt's.
Where are the double standards? For either side?
Lol
The jedi had plenty of room to defend themselves. They also had enough room to spread out, as seen when Palpatine brandished his saber and made his leap. They weren't that clustered (in fact they were farther apart than the IKs Krayt killed); After Palpatine cuts Kolar and Tiin down, he even had to take a couple of huge steps (almost running) to get to Fisto and Windu. The fact that the first two were unable to react was because of a huge speed disparity. Regardless of how terrible that scene was, it was suppose depict Sidious as being extremely fast, as stated by Mcdiarmid who played the character. Common sense should tell us (along with EU sources) that it was Palpatine's speed that enabled him to cut them down so quickly, considering that they each can react to multiple blasters with ease. There's also no reason why Windu and Fisto, both being very aggressive offensive fighters, were unable to cut Palpatine down in the time it took him to drop Kolar and Tiin and then turn around to engage them, unless Palpatine was just that fast, which he was.
I'll post videos later, unless someone else wants to.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The unassailable, inarguable fact is that the B-Team have impressive accolades and feats attached to them whereas (as far as I can recall) the Knights butchered by Krayt have neither. From what we know, Sidious's feat is vastly more impressive than Krayt's.
Pretty sure the Imperial Knights as an organization have a quote in the Legacy campaign guide saying they're some of the best duelists out there, and these were masters of said organization, one of them being Roan Fel's personal bodyguard. Krayt doing this while suffering from diminished health is pretty impressive as a whole.
It is not, however, even remotely comparable to Sidious's feat against the B-Team, as you say.
Yeah, I don't think anyone is saying that the IKs are weak fodder(obviously a group of talentless feebs aren't going to be put in charge of safeguarding the Emperor.) In fact, these separate bios confirm that they are very well-trained force adepts:
http://imgur.com/iEFyuM3
http://imgur.com/j0dZcgY
However, IKs simply lack the feats to contend with overtly established(by virtue of feats and accolades) Jedi Masters like Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
lolThat does not prove superiority over the B-Team.
They don't have to be superior. They *were* in superior circumstances and had superior number, though, regardless of what you think of their individual power.
It is still a very, very impressive saber feat.
GalanHowever, IKs simply lack the feats to contend with overtly established(by virtue of feats and accolades) Jedi Masters like Fisto, Tinn, and Kolar.
Those individual ones don't (Morghan detected and TK'ed Moff Calixis earlier, but that's it)... but there are some with more feats than Fisto, and even more with more feats than Tiin and Kolar (who only have a few feats.).
I'll focus on Marasiah Fel, since we actually see her go from trainee to full Imperial Knight during the series. Despite just being promoted, she was able to fight alongside masters and killed a good number of fodder Sith.
And that's a low-end, just-promoted IK. Sure, she was a Fel... but so was Morghan.
Also in Legacy 2, an Imperial Knight described as being young and fairly inexperienced also was quite formidable, even against Sith masters.
And back to these ones specifically, they were chosen in part on the idea that they could likely fight their way out of the entire room full of Elite sith and at least some of them escape. That was their actual battleplan as conveyed to Roan Fel, who though they had a chance at it, if with difficulty. And these were *not* people ignorant of the strength of sith, who had fought publicly for the last few years, just the strength of Krayt himself.
NewGuy01It is not, however, even remotely comparable to Sidious's feat against the B-Team, as you say.
Here's a question for you: What's the next best saber feat beneath the B-team feat?
Asajj, Grievous, Maul (or Maul + Savage!), even Dooku and Vader, when taking on groups of skilled Jedi take more time and effort than that.
Again, it doesn't have to be the exact same, and I'm not claiming it is. However, it is very much on the high side of saber feats generally, and shares similarities to that one.
Originally posted by Q99I'm specifically talking about the group of IKs Krayt slew in Legacy #1, as that scene is what's being compared to Palpatine's slaughter of Fisto/Tinn/Kolar.
Those individual ones do... but there are some with more feats than Fisto, and even more with more feats than Tiin and Kolar (who only have a few feats.).I'll focus on Marasiah Fel, since we actually see her go from trainee to full Imperial Knight during the series. Despite just being promoted, she was able to fight alongside masters and killed a good number of fodder Sith.
And that's a low-end, just-promoted IK. Sure, she was a Fel... but so was Morghan.
Also in Legacy 2, an Imperial Knight described as being young and fairly inexperienced also was quite formidable, even against Sith masters.
Galan
I'm specifically talking about the group of IKs Krayt slew in Legacy #1, as that scene is what's being compared to Palpatine's slaughter of Fisto/Tinn/Kolar.
Yes, but still, it's one certainly-master in a high combat post, and three more probable-masters in an order known for it's combat prowess.
Here's the pros and cons of the IK team vs the B-team:
Pro- More of them
Con- Average strength less
Pro- Surrounding him, including two attacking from behind
Pro- completely ready, not caught off guard, got to try and attack first.
The con is a fairly sizable con, but the pros aren't inconsiderable either.
And, more to the point, saber feats approaching *either* are damn rare, and people who've proven themselves capable of fighting on that general level like Dooku do not have similar. Even if it's not quite as big a feat, it's still without a doubt a top-tier feat.
Again, I'm not saying the IKs Krayt demolished weren't formidable(they'd logically have to be, given their job description.) However, they were certainly not on par with the 'B Team', imo--not where quantifiable feats/accolades are concerned, at least.
That's why I believe Palpatine's feat of slaying the 'B Team'>Krayt's feat of slaying the IKs.
Originally posted by Galan007
Again, I'm not saying the IKs aren't formidable(they'd logically have to be, given their job description.) However, they are certainly not on par with the 'B Team', imo--not where quantifiable feats/accolades are concerned, at least.
Did you read my pro/con list? I mentioned that.
That's why Palpatine's feat of slaying the 'B Team'>Krayt's feat of slaying the IKs.
And my point is, Krayt's feat of slaying the IKs > Almost any other saber feat against a group you could name, even by people who certainly could give Palpatine a workout.
Originally posted by Q99Frankly, I find this assertion quite absurd(and enormously biased) given that said IKs were almost entirely featless/accoladeless... But I know your opinions regarding Krayt cannot be swayed no matter how silly they might be at times, so I'll leave it at that.
And my point is, Krayt's feat of slaying the IKs > Almost any other saber feat against a group you could name, even by people who certainly could give Palpatine a workout.
g007-psyduck
Q99, where do you get that Palpatine caught the jedi masters off-guard? Kolar and Tiin actually had their sabers in position to strike Palpatine down, but stood in the same position like statues, not because they were that slow or caught off-guard, but because Palpatine's speed was such that they were like life-less statues compared to him. Krayt did not replicate that kind of speed. The IKs at least managed to react, as they ran towards Krayt, engaging him as they successfully surrounded him, but were outpaced, out skilled and defeated rather quickly. One knight even managed to swing at Krayt, only to have his arm cut off in the process, while another managed to evade a swing by Krayt, but was later stabbed through his stomach.
Vol. 2 of the Legacy comics (Shards) shows us a few missing sequences of Krayt's fight with the IKs that Vol. 1 did not.
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Palpatine didn't take a couple of huge steps after downing Kolar and Tiin (my mistake), it was more like he dashed towards Mace and Kit. However, if you pause the scene when Palpatine hits Kolar, you can see that Tiin is a pretty good distance from Kolar, with Mace and Fisto being even further from the first two. Kit and Mace even had enough room to change positions when Palpatine started engaging them, putting Palpatine in the middle.
Originally posted by psmith81992
No more than a single quote proves superiority over the Imperial Knights
This isn't that hard, Beefy.
There are more impressive feats and accolades attributable to the B-Team than are attributable to Fel's bodyguards.
Therefore we have more reason to believe that the B-Team is superior and that Darth Sidious's effortless slaughter of them is a far greater feat than Krayt killing those Imperial Knights.
You obviously want to argue otherwise, but you need to bring something to the table.
Q99
They don't have to be superior. They *were* in superior circumstances and had superior number, though, regardless of what you think of their individual power.It is still a very, very impressive saber feat.
No one denied that it was an impressive lightsaber feat; what is being denied is the idea that it's comparable to what Sidious did in ROTS. As usual, you erroneously conflate the two. Something can be "impressive" and still not be up to par with Palpatine.