Originally posted by EpicurusLucifer destroyed a dimension full of alternate realities simply by being present within it. Beats any on-panel feat performed by any version of Jaspers ever. By like a mile or so.
Yet, even the weaker 238 JJ was > Merlyn.
Jaspers is GOD withIN his warp.
It's that simple.
Whatever anyone can do outside his warp is inconsequential,
if you're touched by the warp, then you're his plaything.
That was the story and character make-up.
He was given a plot of course to stop him.
This plot is called the Fury.
This is why I don't enjoy cross-company battles of this scale.
Originally posted by Mr Master
Merlyn's feats are far and beyond Jaspers too.Yet, even the weaker 238 JJ was > Merlyn.
Jaspers is GOD withIN his warp.
It's that simple.
Whatever anyone can do outside his warp is inconsequential,
if you're touched by the warp, then you're his plaything.That was the story and character make-up.
He was given a plot of course to stop him.
This plot is called the Fury.This is why I don't enjoy cross-company battles of this scale.
Lucifer kills Gods for the sh1ts and giggles. Even when he's depowered.
This is why he'll stomp a complete mudhole all over Jaspers' ugly face in this thread.
Originally posted by Epicurus
The fact that all angels in general have superhuman stats? Read the Lucifer series written by Mike Carey for relevant feats. It's a relly good read, very well-written. Thank me later on.
I did read half of it. I remember him crushing a box with his bare hands. Not a cardboard box, either.
Lucifer wins and actually they are similar in some way, even Lucifer can't create anything out of nothing... he needs his brother and he proved to be powerless in certain dimensions... so actually he is far from being omnipotent and the same goes for MJJ... actually they both need reality and then their shaping power seems limitless... so actually Lucifer and MJJ are really similar power wise... so no... Lucifer is not more powerful than MJJ was and Lucifer had in no way better feats.
Lucifer kills Gods for the sh1ts and giggles. Even when he's depowered.
Means nothing against MJJ who would do the same effortlesly.
Anyway, HoM Wanda beats them both.
Originally posted by zopzopExcept that it wasn't his power, he just molded it. And the fact that his creation was stated to be a universe just as much, if not more, times than it was stated to be a multiverse.
His creation was stated to be a multiverse just once, and a universal several times. But let's put that aside, and restate the point which you apparently keep on ignoring.
Yahweh's creation is a proven multiverse given that we saw on panel, actual alternate realities. In other words, regardless of what term is used to describe Yahweh's creation, it's unarguably a multiverse. Thing is, Lucifer and Michael were the ones who created it (stated on panel more than once, and confirmed by a bio). So that's a proven multiverse right there (which Lucifer created), undeniably. I can understand people not accepting Lucifer's creation as a multiverse (even though i do, mostly because in Lucifer: Nirvana, Lucifer specifically corrected Mazikeen that his creation is a multiverse, and the fact that Vertigo in general doesn't use the term frequently)....but saying that Yahweh's creation isn't a multiverse, is ignoring evidence.
Don't come back with your "Lucifer + MICHAEL" reply, because ive heard it too many times now. Michael merely releases the energy which Lucifer shapes to his whim, instantly. Meaning inside a given multiverse/universe; Lucifer can shape/control all aspects of reality however he likes, and he does so, instantly (unlike MJJ, who needs his warp to become all powerful within a reality, and this warp of his, takes time).
Also....(another point which you continually avoid, so ill restate it and see your counter): Lucifer is above abstracts such as Dream (whose partial power was enough to create a multiverse, instantly), and Death (who operates on a megaversal scale)......so what has Jaspers done to suggest that he can take on someone on that level? (Please don't say that MJJ being above Merlyn somehow equates to Lucifer being above the endless, because it absolutely doesn't).
MJJ stands zero chance against Lucifer without his warp. With his warp, it'd be interesting to see, though ill still go with Lucifer.
Originally posted by operator616
His creation was stated to be a multiverse just once, and a universal several times. But let's put that aside, and restate the point which you apparently keep on ignoring.Yahweh's creation is a proven multiverse given that we saw on panel, actual alternate realities. In other words, regardless of what term is used to describe Yahweh's creation, it's unarguably a multiverse. Thing is, Lucifer and Michael were the ones who created it (stated on panel more than once, and confirmed by a bio). So that's a proven multiverse right there (which Lucifer created), undeniably. I can understand people not accepting Lucifer's creation as a multiverse (even though i do, mostly because in Lucifer: Nirvana, Lucifer specifically corrected Mazikeen that his creation is a multiverse, and the fact that Vertigo in general doesn't use the term frequently)....but saying that Yahweh's creation isn't a multiverse, is ignoring evidence.
Don't come back with your "Lucifer + MICHAEL" reply, because ive heard it too many times now. Michael merely releases the energy which Lucifer shapes to his whim, instantly. Meaning inside a given multiverse/universe; Lucifer can shape/control all aspects of reality however he likes, and he does so, instantly (unlike MJJ, who needs his warp to become all powerful within a reality, and this warp of his, takes time).
Also....(another point which you continually avoid, so ill restate it and see your counter): Lucifer is above abstracts such as Dream (whose partial power was enough to create a multiverse, instantly), and Death (who operates on a megaversal scale)......so what has Jaspers done to suggest that he can take on someone on that level? (Please don't say that MJJ being above Merlyn somehow equates to Lucifer being above the endless, because it absolutely doesn't).
MJJ stands zero chance against Lucifer without his warp. With his warp, it'd be interesting to see, though ill still go with Lucifer.
PS Yahweh's creation was also called a universe.
Lucifer wins.
I doubt very highly that Fury's 'un-warpability'(he was immune to MJJ's warp, remember) would be greater than Lucifer and his infinite will. If Lucifer doesn't want to be warped, he isn't going to be warped--tbh, I'd be surprised if he couldn't simply usurp control over MJJ's warp from him. /shrug
Originally posted by zopzop
Yes he shaped MICHAEL'S ENERGY. It took both of them to create a universe.
Dude....are you trying not to understand me or what?
It's really simple. Michael releases the energy, which Lucifer shapes to his whim.
So the point is: within a reality, Lucifer would be nigh-omnipotent considering he can shape it however he likes it.
Originally posted by zopzop
PS Yahweh's creation was also called a universe.
Well, i was hoping you wouldn't say that...
But okay, seems like you'll keep repeating this same point till you get proven wrong with evidence.
Ill come back with scans confirming that Vertigo/Yahweh's creation multiverse. In the meantime though, im still waiting for this part (which yet again, you avoided; nice try though):
Originally posted by operator616
Also....(another point which you continually avoid, so ill restate it and see your counter): Lucifer is above abstracts such as Dream (whose partial power was enough to create a multiverse, instantly), and Death (who operates on a megaversal scale)......so what has Jaspers done to suggest that he can take on someone on that level? (Please don't say that MJJ being above Merlyn somehow equates to Lucifer being above the endless, because it absolutely doesn't).
Do you have a counter for that, or do you concede this point?
Originally posted by zopzop
PS Yahweh's creation was also called a universe.
Right. Just to be clear, unless you disprove the below facts (which you can't), you can't go on claiming in every other thread after today, that Lucifer created a mere universe (at least not Yahweh's creation)
Anyway, the Lucifer series, outright shows alternate realities, and an alternate version of a character named Cal:
Lucifer #37:
http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg
"Other universeS"
See, each mirror represents an entire universe. This is also confirmed when we see an alternate version of cal, two issues later in Lucifer #39:
http://i.imgur.com/95E4goS.jpg
--------------------------------
I decided to include other titles to strengthen my case:
Next we have Sandman (which is the most closely associated of the Vertigo titles, to the Lucifer series), depicting and referencing universeS:
Sandman #23, we see a reference to dimensionS:
http://i.imgur.com/1eFUXgw.jpg?1
Retold again in Death: At Death's Door:
http://i.imgur.com/J6VVfAC.jpg?1
Sandman #4, universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/mX7mrPd.jpg?1
Sandman #66, universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/5YKhmuQ.jpg?1
Sandman #67, realitIES:
http://i.imgur.com/EvquIUn.jpg?1
Absolute Sandman: Special Edition: Adjacent dimensionS:
http://i.imgur.com/hvpleT9.jpg?1
Or here, in Sandman #54, we literally see alternate universes:
http://i.imgur.com/AS1tgK3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vzVhYvb.jpg
Notice how the second scan says: Traveling from America to America (alternate Americas).
That's also evident when it's stated "worldS" (in this case, a reference to alternate universeS).
Note: Despite this, Lucifer when appearing in the Sandman series still calls it "The Universe" (in other words, the terms are interchangeable).
---------------------------------
3 quick examples, from other titles (who aren't that associated with the Lucifer series, but they're Vertigo nonetheless):
Hunter: Age of Magic #3, says:
http://i.imgur.com/DIK5N4L.jpg?1
"...one of the many worlds and dimensions".
Btw, the Gemworld is in a separate reality from that of mainstream Earth (let me know if you want the proof).
Also, i know for a fact that the term "dimension" is used to refer to a fully functional universe in the Tim Hunter-related comics (let me know if you want proof for that as well).
Yet, we also know that in Tim Hunter comics, all of creation is referred to as "The Universe" just like Yahweh's (again, let me know if you want the evidence). Btw, i also have scans from Books of Magic v1 depicting Lucifer on panel, and referencing him several times in v2. I already have those ready.
Anyway, Morrison's Doom Patrol depicts alternate realities (painting acting as a portal) - from issue #29:
http://i.imgur.com/0fW8DrC.jpg
Then:
http://i.imgur.com/Epivy2J.jpg?1
"...through into...our world" -- obviously confirms that it's an alternate world, considering they were on another Earth.
Yet, we also know that all of creation in Morrison's Doom Patrol run, is referred to as "The Universe", i have several examples, so let me know if you want them posted.
Hellblazer #249 (while it was published in 2008, this story actually involved one from the 90s with the Golden Boy which confirms the existence of alternate realities back then, so it counts):
http://i.imgur.com/s4UphpM.jpg
So ill stop here (i could go on if you want, though).
Originally posted by operator616
Right. Just to be clear, unless you disprove the below facts (which you can't), you can't go on claiming in every other thread after today, that Lucifer created a mere universe (at least not Yahweh's creation)Anyway, the [B]Lucifer
series, outright shows alternate realities, and an alternate version of a character named Cal:Lucifer #37:
http://i.imgur.com/qYnOJ1z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/H7UopQl.jpg"Other universeS"
See, each mirror represents an entire universe. This is also confirmed when we see an alternate version of cal, two issues later in Lucifer #39:
http://i.imgur.com/95E4goS.jpg
--------------------------------
I decided to include other titles to strengthen my case:
Next we have Sandman (which is the most closely associated of the Vertigo titles, to the Lucifer series), depicting and referencing universeS:
Sandman #23, we see a reference to dimensionS:
http://i.imgur.com/1eFUXgw.jpg?1
Retold again in Death: At Death's Door:
http://i.imgur.com/J6VVfAC.jpg?1
Sandman #4, universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/mX7mrPd.jpg?1
Sandman #66, universeS:
http://i.imgur.com/5YKhmuQ.jpg?1
Sandman #67, realitIES:
http://i.imgur.com/EvquIUn.jpg?1
Absolute Sandman: Special Edition: Adjacent dimensionS:
http://i.imgur.com/hvpleT9.jpg?1
Or here, in Sandman #54, we literally see alternate universes:
http://i.imgur.com/AS1tgK3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vzVhYvb.jpgNotice how the second scan says: Traveling from America to America (alternate Americas).
That's also evident when it's stated "worldS" (in this case, a reference to alternate universeS).
Note: Despite this, Lucifer when appearing in the Sandman series still calls it "The Universe" (in other words, the terms are interchangeable).
---------------------------------
3 quick examples, from other titles (who aren't that associated with the Lucifer series, but they're Vertigo nonetheless):Hunter: Age of Magic #3, says:
http://i.imgur.com/DIK5N4L.jpg?1
"...one of the many worlds and dimensions".
Btw, the Gemworld is in a separate reality from that of mainstream Earth (let me know if you want the proof).
Also, i know for a fact that the term "dimension" is used to refer to a fully functional universe in the Tim Hunter-related comics (let me know if you want proof for that as well).
Yet, we also know that in Tim Hunter comics, all of creation is referred to as "The Universe" just like Yahweh's (again, let me know if you want the evidence). Btw, i also have scans from Books of Magic v1 depicting Lucifer on panel, and referencing him several times in v2. I already have those ready.
Anyway, Morrison's Doom Patrol depicts alternate realities (painting acting as a portal) - from issue #29:
http://i.imgur.com/0fW8DrC.jpg
Then:
http://i.imgur.com/Epivy2J.jpg?1
"...through into...our world" -- obviously confirms that it's an alternate world, considering they were on another Earth.
Yet, we also know that all of creation in Morrison's Doom Patrol run, is referred to as "The Universe", i have several examples, so let me know if you want them posted.
Hellblazer #249 (while it was published in 2008, this story actually involved one from the 90s with the Golden Boy which confirms the existence of alternate realities back then, so it counts):
http://i.imgur.com/s4UphpM.jpg
So ill stop here (i could go on if you want, though). [/B]
