Lucifer Morningstar VS Mad Jim Jaspers

ok, so to head off anymore of the garbage i can already see building up in this thread (the same garbage that has polluted several threads the last few months) i've asked for a mod ruling on the following--is vertigo to be considered a multiverse from now on, and his lucifer's creation ALSO to be viewed as a multiverse. opr has provided some great examples. if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, so to head off anymore of the garbage i can already see building up in this thread (the same garbage that has polluted several threads the last few months) i've asked for a mod ruling on the following--is vertigo to be considered a multiverse from now on, and his lucifer's creation ALSO to be viewed as a multiverse. opr has provided some great examples. if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.

For every instance of it being called a multiverse, there are MORE instances of it being called a universe.

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, so to head off anymore of the garbage i can already see building up in this thread (the same garbage that has polluted several threads the last few months) i've asked for a mod ruling on the following--is vertigo to be considered a multiverse from now on, and his lucifer's creation ALSO to be viewed as a multiverse. opr has provided some great examples. if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.

👆

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet here we are near the end of the Lucifer series and Yahweh's creation is described as a universe :

Yahweh, like his two idiot sons, is a moron. He doesn't even know the extent of his own creation! 😆

Originally posted by operator616
Note: Despite this, Lucifer when appearing in the Sandman series still calls it "The Universe" (in other words, the terms are interchangeable).

Originally posted by Galan007
Not. Hard. To. Understand.

Potato != Potatoes

Universe != Multiverse no matter how hard the Vertigo fanboys try.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yet here we are near the end of the Lucifer series and Yahweh's creation is described as a universe :
Yahweh, like his two idiot sons, is a moron. He doesn't even know the extent of his own creation! 😆

First off, glad you conceded the point regarding Lucifer being > Endless which makes him >> MJJ. 👆

Now that we got that out of the way....you do realize that your scan from Lucifer #68, shows us Yahweh holding all of creation in his hand, right? .....

You also completely ignored the point. Lucifer, in the same arc where alternate universes were referenced, still referred to the whole of creation as "the universe":

http://i.imgur.com/SpynKh3.jpg?2

"the whole thing, the universe"

Well, we know that "the whole thing = the totality of all the alternate universes --- the multiverse.

Notice this:

http://i.imgur.com/AulNDW0.jpg?1

"...in the universe"

a page later we learn that there are adjacent dimensionS (Scan already posted):

http://i.imgur.com/AulNDW0.jpg?1

So obviously, "the universe" in this case, is referred to as, the whole of creation - the multiverse.

Same thing goes to the other titles i posted (i can confirm it later on, if you wish, now i dont have time).

Originally posted by leonidas
if you have other scans at the ready opr, you might want to post them for the benefit of the mods if you'd be so kind. seems the only way to end this stupidity once and for all.

Well yeah, i have more. Animal Man is another example, where alternate realities and alternate versions of a character are shown:

http://i.imgur.com/OO92xqi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k1UfjbJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0pAOKRn.jpg

(A reference to the "coma" back at the beginning of the run, confirming that was alternate reality Buddy)

That's from Peter Milligan's run, though Morrison also played a little with alternate realities but that was involved with the COIE, so meh.

Anyway, i avoided putting Animal Man since, while it's technically part of Vertigo, it's less associated with the Lucifer series, and more-so with Mainstream DCU.....but still, it counts, i suppose.

Ill wait for the mods, and see if what i posted is enough (it definitely should be).

Originally posted by operator616
First off, glad you conceded the point regarding Lucifer being > Endless which makes him >> MJJ. 👆

As to the rest of your post, it changes nothing. Their creations have been called universes more times than they have multiverses.

Originally posted by zopzop

Universe = Multiverse

stoned

^ Read the thread carefully. I highly doubt anyone reasonable would side with zopzop here, because what he's saying is total and utter nonsense.

Originally posted by zopzop
I conceded no such thing. And even if I did, I've never been impressed with any of the Endless, so....... 👇

Really? then why didn't you counter it? Coz ive been repeating this point time and time again, yet i never got a response.

So now your response is that you (who we all know to be a very big fan of the Vertigo characters, and doesn't always side against them just for the sake it) aren't impressed with them?

Well it doesn't really matter what you think, because they have proven feats.

Dream is a casual multiversal power, period. If you're gonna deny this, ill return with proof, and you'll be proven wrong yet again.

Death is a megaversal power, proven on panel as well. Don't try to deny this.

Yet, Lucifer is above Death, and dwarfs dream. It's that simple. Ive got all the scan ready. So you either ask me for proof, or stop making claims like these.

Originally posted by zopzop
As to the rest of your post, it changes nothing. Their creations have been called universes more times than they have multiverses.

Right. So i show you alternate realities being referenced/depicted across several Vertigo titles, and point out that the totality of creation is still referred to as "the Universe" ...yet, you return with the same point.

I mean, seriously, what's there to deny? If there are alternate universes and alternate versions of the characters depicted on panel, then how the hell does that not prove that it's a multiverse? ......Please, take a minute and think about what you're saying here, because it's complete nonsense.

Anyway, im done arguing with you regarding this particular point. I think you and i both know very well that you were proven wrong here, but you can't admit that because you just can't stop with this hatred toward Lucifer and Vertigo characters in general.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why are you running to mods? Why are you avoiding how their respective creations (Yahweh and Lucifer) are mentioned on panel?

For every instance of it being called a multiverse, there are MORE instances of it being called a universe.

perhaps for lucifer, NOT for the vertigoverse however. and i find it ironic that you, of all people, are criticizing ANYONE for ignoring on-panel proof of ANYTHING, considering it is was both said and SHOWN ON PANEL that the lucifer-verse was a multiverse. and lol at running to the mods. i'm just sick and f****** tired of reading over the same tired and idiotic argument you bring up in every thread where lucifer comes up. your hatred for the character is more than a little disturbing and is clearly affecting your reason.

Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps for lucifer, NOT for the vertigoverse however. and i find it ironic that you, of all people, are criticizing ANYONE for ignoring on-panel proof of ANYTHING, considering it is was both said and SHOWN ON PANEL that the lucifer-verse was a multiverse. and lol at running to the mods. i'm just sick and f****** tired of reading over the same tired and idiotic argument you bring up in every thread where lucifer comes up. your hatred for the character is more than a little disturbing and is clearly affecting your reason.

So stop crying. You're an adult aren't you? Act like one.

Zopzop, stop the trolling. You are not contributing to this thread. You are derailing it by doubling down on your "claims".

Originally posted by Badabing
Zopzop, stop the trolling. You are not contributing to this thread. You are derailing it by doubling down on your "claims".

The gig is up, Zop. We know you're just playing around.

😂

childish would be starting a flamewar with you. childish is spouting the same nonsense over and over in the face of overwhelming on panel proof. childish is acting like a troll in every lucifer thread that gets opened! then, cuz i'm tired of reading your crap, you have the audacity to tell ME i ignore on panel proof when you've ignored an entire COMPANY's consistent portrayal. and criticizing someone for acting childish while posting that cute little phrase under your sig kinda weakens your high-horse stance btw... lol

the adult thing would be to admit you're wrong in the face of overwhelming proof and move on bro.

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

childish would be starting a flamewar with you. childish is spouting the same nonsense over and over in the face of overwhelming on panel proof. childish is acting like a troll in every lucifer thread that gets opened! then, cuz i'm tired of reading your crap, you have the audacity to tell ME i ignore on panel proof when you've ignored an entire COMPANY's consistent portrayal. and criticizing someone for acting childish while posting that cute little phrase under your sig kinda weakens your high-horse stance btw... lol

the adult thing would be to admit you're wrong in the face of overwhelming proof and move on bro.

This piggybacks with the previous scans of Elaine calling Yahweh's creation a universe.

and? no one has EVER said the term universe and multiverse weren't used interchangeably. you don't NEED that scan to know vertigo was a multiverse when you've been shown OVER AND OVER AGAIN on panel proof that it is. that one scan does NOT somehow overrule all the other dozens of scans from a variety of sources INCLUDING lucifer, that show incontrovertibly that vertigo IS a multiverse.

really, what is so hard for YOU to understand?

Originally posted by operator616

^ Read the thread carefully.

Anyway, I was commenting off-topically on the universe = multiverse specific solely.
My comment bared no relevance on the battle btw, and didn't dispute your post.

Originally posted by leonidas
and? no one has EVER said the term universe and multiverse weren't used interchangeably. you don't NEED that scan to know vertigo was a multiverse when you've been shown OVER AND OVER AGAIN on panel proof that it is. that one scan does NOT somehow overrule all the other dozens of scans from a variety of sources INCLUDING lucifer, that show incontrovertibly that vertigo IS a multiverse.

really, what is so hard for YOU to understand?

Then our definition of "multiverse" don't mesh up.

A multiverse is an infinite series of alternate universes. Complete universes. Complete universes each with their own sets of gods/abstracts/pocket dimenions (hells, heavens, etc...).

That's a multiverse.

Elaine, who was GOD at that point, said it herself. She was letting herself go to merge with her creation................the UNIVERSE.

The End.

your idea of multiverse is incorrect, but even using your OWN definition, the vertigo-verse is definitively a mutliverse as i showed when i showed the sandman scans around boss smiley and prez. prez travels from earth to earth wandering across all the alternate versions of america. we also saw an alternate character in the lucifer-verse which you've been shown several times. at best you can say there is some inconsistency with regards to the lucifer-verse. if you want to say its a universe because that was the word that described it often (creation was also used often) and ignore what was shown, that's on you, but do not try and pretend an equally strong case can be made for it being shown as a multiverse--via on panel proof AND implied proofs.

there is NO lack of consistency with regards to the vertigo-verse though. your one scan is the only thing. dozens of other scans, across various titles (sandman dedicated an entire 10-12 story ARC around the various alternate universes) depict it as a multiverse. forgetting that it has also interacted with dc proper. as regards the vertigo-verse YOU HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON. zero. one scan does NOT outweigh entire arcs of proof. and you know it.