Kit Fisto vs. Qui-Gon Jinn

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never said I had, only that I will have to, since most, if not all, of your recollection of the book appears wrong.

Feel free to scan or whatever. You haven't done any direct refuting at this point, whereas I have referenced several things from the book itself. In fact, before I started using it as a reference recently, people in this sub-forum hadn't shown any knowledge of it. Certainly not to the extent which I demonstrated.

I don't even know what this is, but it seems as if you're saying Kit is Kenobi's better.

This fight is a big plot point in the book, so if you don't remember it or don't know what it is, your knowledge of the book seems really suspicious.

None of this refutes my point.

You grossly exaggerated Kit's showing against Ventress' mooks, so yes, it does refute your point.

This qualifies as a red herring. Either address my point or don't address it at all.

Don't make me laugh.

So? Jinn not losing to Maul in ''seconds'' does nothing to prove your point when Kit would not lose to Maul in ''seconds'' either.

But nothing you've said demonstrates Fisto is conclusively higher than QGJ. QGJ is a Jedi Master, renowned for his saber mastery (which is what got Dooku's attention in the first place), who was able to expend a tremendous amount of energy at Maul and last longer against a superior Sith (again, Maul) then Fisto did against a neophyte dark jedi (Ventress). About the only feat I can give Fisto of note is his generous showing against Grievous, who again, isn't a Force sensitive and typically has only killed Jedi with goons, ambush tactics, or extreme fortune.

Provide a page number, because Jinn has no entry in the Power of the Jedi sourcebook that I'm aware.

You mean he doesn't have a chapter to himself on the Wookiepedia page.

I don't have the Sourcebook at work. I will render what I can find later. In any case, concentrate on your defense of Fisto, because your "NUH UH" routine coupled with a glaring lack of The Cestus Deception knowledge isn't winning you any points.

--

EDIT: Tempest, it might even be in Mace's bio.

^ If your talking about the eu section of bios on the official site, they were all taken down a few years ago.

This fight is a big plot point in the book, so if you don't remember it or don't know what it is, your knowledge of the book seems really suspicious.

Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other's defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan's more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed, emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk. To relax and feel the flow of the Force under such stress was the true road to mastery.

Yes, Fisto, when restraining his abilities, is better than AotC Kenobi, and not ''around'' AotC Kenobi, as you claimed.

You grossly exaggerated Kit's showing against Ventress' mooks, so yes, it does refute your point.

Don't make me laugh.

But nothing you've said demonstrates Fisto is conclusively higher than QGJ. QGJ is a Jedi Master, renowned for his saber mastery (which is what got Dooku's attention in the first place), who was able to expend a tremendous amount of energy at Maul and last longer against a superior Sith (again, Maul) then Fisto did against a neophyte dark jedi (Ventress). About the only feat I can give Fisto of note is his generous showing against Grievous, who again, isn't a Force sensitive and typically has only killed Jedi with goons, ambush tactics, or extreme fortune.

More than that, Kit has casually disposed of two MagnaGuards in a trilogy where, from what I recall, three of them posed a challenge to RotS Kenobi.

Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs…

And when have we ever seen Jinn exercise Force speed like this?

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light.

Kit is telekinetically more powerful as well.

Yes, Kit would beat Jinn. He has fought Asajj evenly with a form not ideal to fight her, he has beaten Grievous, he has beaten two MagnaGuards, he has created multiple afterglows, and he has been called one of the best duelists in the Order.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you're referencing Kit's and Kenobi's fight with Asajj, then it's a strawman argument as I was talking about Kit's sparring session with Kenobi.

I was specifically referencing the mock fight they have to convince the locals that the Confederates are their enemies, where Kit Fisto plays the 'dark jedi' and uses a light whip, but manages to thankfully not hurt Kenobi despite only using it just before the fight.

How could you not know if you read the book?

Yes, Fisto, when restraining his abilities, is better than AotC Kenobi, and not ''around'' AotC Kenobi, as you claimed.

He's not that far above. The distance between Kenobi, a peer, and say, Dooku or Mace Windu is huge. Let's put it into perspective:

Ventress > AOTC Obi
Ventress > Kit Fisto
Dooku/Mace/Anakin > Ventress

The text outright states that the X'Ting came on them ''in waves'', so no, not really.

You have a more accurate number? I could make 'waves' out of 10-20 guys, and Fisto didn't fight them all. In any case, they are non-Force sensitive mooks of the lowest order, so this is quite the red herring. In The Approaching Storm, newbies Anakin and Barriss non-lethally defend against armies with Obi and Luminara.

Can they all defeat Qui-Gon too?

It was a red herring. I pointed out that Asajj's form is ideal against Kit's which you ignored in your reply.

So let me make sure I understand you:

Relative Force newbie and Dark Jedi Asajj Ventress, with a short window of observation, identified and destroyed his fighting style and you think Qui-Gon Jinn, trained for years under the definitive Makashi master, will somehow be weaker than her?

K.

LOL. Kit is renowned for his dueling skill as well. In fact, Kit is one of the most skilled duelists in the Order.

Master of Form I.

The most basic, pre-Makashi style which was not the refinement of saber-to-saber combat, stresses disarming people, and has never really allowed him to defeat anyone of serious value?

K.

More than that, Kit has casually disposed of two MagnaGuards in a trilogy where, from what I recall, three of them posed a challenge to RotS Kenobi.

When? Also, Kenobi fended off several in tight spots with Grievous also in the works in TCW. They are extremely unreliable benchmarks at best.

And when have we ever seen Jinn exercise Force speed like this?

That's not at all subjective and hyperbolic.

When has Kit Fisto shown actual Force-speed on screen, like QGJ did explicitly in TPM?

Kit is telekinetically more powerful as well.

Kenobi could do that too.

Am I to believe that Qui-Gon, Jedi Council material and long time Jedi Master, is unable to? Why isn't Kit Fisto serving on the Council in TPM then?

Yes, Kit would beat Jinn. He has fought Asajj evenly with a form not ideal to fight her,

Absolute bollocks. He did not fight evenly with her; she beat his ass. His form is primitive and even as a master of it, he is outshined.

he has beaten Grievous,

Non-precog using Grievous, who has no TK.

he has beaten two MagnaGuards,

Holy father, two? Hold me back.

he has created multiple afterglows,

Padawan Barriss Offee in The Approaching Storm makes a solid ring of light using her saber while doing a compass dance for natives.

Offee > Qui-Gon Jinn?

and he has been called one of the best duelists in the Order.

Well after Qui-Gon was dead, and nowhere near the capability of Obi, Anakin, Maul, or anyone of merit.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Feel free to scan or whatever. You haven't done any direct refuting at this point, whereas I have referenced several things from the book itself. In fact, before I started using it as a reference recently, people in this sub-forum hadn't shown any knowledge of it. Certainly not to the extent which I demonstrated.

This fight is a big plot point in the book, so if you don't remember it or don't know what it is, your knowledge of the book seems really suspicious.

You grossly exaggerated Kit's showing against Ventress' mooks, so yes, it does refute your point.

Don't make me laugh.

But nothing you've said demonstrates Fisto is conclusively higher than QGJ. QGJ is a Jedi Master, renowned for his saber mastery (which is what got Dooku's attention in the first place), who was able to expend a tremendous amount of energy at Maul and last longer against a superior Sith (again, Maul) then Fisto did against a neophyte dark jedi (Ventress). About the only feat I can give Fisto of note is his generous showing against Grievous, who again, isn't a Force sensitive and typically has only killed Jedi with goons, ambush tactics, or extreme fortune.

You mean he doesn't have a chapter to himself on the Wookiepedia page.

I don't have the Sourcebook at work. I will render what I can find later. In any case, concentrate on your defense of Fisto, because your "NUH UH" routine coupled with a glaring lack of The Cestus Deception knowledge isn't winning you any points.

--

EDIT: Tempest, it might even be in Mace's bio.

No bro. I have scanned every source that claims that, and found nothing because I used to say the exact same thing. Seems like it was fabricated.

A Stark does not bro a Lannister.

You could be right. I will check the sourcebook tonight to lay it to rest.

Hrm, so I am pretty sure I had the Power of the Jedi sourcebook at some point (I remembered the cover clearly) but I can't find it at the moment. I've even done a full PC search for it, and I normally wouldn't waste that kind of time for anything.

However, the Jedi Academy Training Manual has this on Page 94:

This reaffirms the idea that Qui-Gon is elite of the Order and considered to be a peer of Mace if not his direct equal. Kit Fisto is not mentioned anywhere.

--

Unrelated but also interesting, the book confirms that Vodo has been beaten by Kun mulitple times before the events of the comic, and reaffirms the Sith Lord as his greatest apprentice.

"Such as Qui-Gon Jiin and even Mace Windu" just suggests Mace>Qui-Gon>Bondara

Also sparring does not mean sparring evenly. Hell Saesee Tiin and Quinlan Vos sparred with Mace.

We all agree that Mace Windu is a prodigy all on his own, and I would never argue Qui-Gon could defeat him in normal circumstances.

However...

Jinn is considered to be a superior duelist above Anoon and everyone else in the Order, including Kit Fisto. Even Cin Drallig isn't given such laurels.

So my evidence is still valid.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
We all agree that Mace Windu is a prodigy all on his own, and I would never argue Qui-Gon could defeat him in normal circumstances.

However...

Jinn is considered to be a superior duelist above Anoon and everyone else in the Order, including Kit Fisto. Even Cin Drallig isn't given such laurels.

So my evidence is still valid.

Jinn was around when Fisto wasn't yet a master, let alone one of the better combatants on the council.

That's one thing about Qui-Gon being one of the best- most of the best duelists if the Clone War were young and inexperienced then, and .

Windu was great even at the time, but he did not yet invent Vaapad, meaning he's a nice big step down from his Sidious-fighting self. Fisto, Kenobi, Skywalker, Shaak Ti, Mundi, all of 'em were younger and weaker, I don't think a single one of those was even a master yet, and maybe not even knights.

Or to put it another way, Qui-Gon was one of the best at a time when the Jedi, being largely at peace, had only a smaller number of strong duelists. Kit Fisto came at the time of a whole wave of new combat prodigies who honed their skill in a war, and where the best of the old guard sharpened their skills more. One of the best of the Clone Wars is higher praise than one of the best a decade or so before.

Going to respond to that huge pile of shit later, SM.

Originally posted by Q99
Windu was great even at the time, but he did not yet invent Vaapad,

Originally posted by Intrepid37

Not true. In Shatterpoint, that I remember, Mace commented on Depa's mastery of Vaapad that she displayed when they had fought Akk Dogs, referring to the Emissaries to Malastare arc in Republic which took place around TPM.

Conceeded.

I will say he didn't *perfect* it, though, which iirc happened late in the CW.

Not sure about that.

Originally posted by Q99
Jinn was around when Fisto wasn't yet a master, let alone one of the better combatants on the council.

Qui-Gon wasn't in his prime either at TPM time. He was past his prime. (TPM Novel).

Originally posted by Q99
That's one thing about Qui-Gon being one of the best- most of the best duelists if the Clone War were young and inexperienced then, and .

Or to put it another way, Qui-Gon was one of the best at a time when the Jedi, being largely at peace, had only a smaller number of strong duelists. Kit Fisto came at the time of a whole wave of new combat prodigies who honed their skill in a war, and where the best of the old guard sharpened their skills more. One of the best of the Clone Wars is higher praise than one of the best a decade or so before.

There still were great elite duelists at the time (amongst the best of all time) like Anoon, Dooku, Windu. And Qui-Gon was considered in the elite. He was even the best swordsman his Lightsaber instructor had taught in hundreds of years (TPM novel).

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I was specifically referencing the mock fight they have to convince the locals that the Confederates are their enemies, where Kit Fisto plays the 'dark jedi' and uses a light whip, but manages to thankfully not hurt Kenobi despite only using it just before the fight.

How could you not know if you read the book?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
He's not that far above. The distance between Kenobi, a peer, and say, Dooku or Mace Windu is huge. Let's put it into perspective:

Kit, when holding back, > AotC Kenobi.
Kit, not holding back, >> AotC Kenobi.

So yes, there is a good gap between them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You have a more accurate number?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I could make 'waves' out of 10-20 guys, and Fisto didn't fight them all. In any case, they are non-Force sensitive mooks of the lowest order, so this is quite the red herring. In The Approaching Storm, newbies Anakin and Barriss non-lethally defend against armies with Obi and Luminara.

Can they all defeat Qui-Gon too?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So let me make sure I understand you:

Relative Force newbie and Dark Jedi Asajj Ventress, with a short window of observation, identified and destroyed his fighting style and you think Qui-Gon Jinn, trained for years under the definitive Makashi master, will somehow be weaker than her?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Master of Form I.

The most basic, pre-Makashi style which was not the refinement of saber-to-saber combat, stresses disarming people, and has never really allowed him to defeat anyone of serious value?

K.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also, Kenobi fended off several in tight spots with Grievous also in the works in TCW. They are extremely unreliable benchmarks at best.

Originally posted by Me
More than that, Kit has casually disposed of two MagnaGuards in a trilogy where, from what I recall, three of them posed a challenge to RotS Kenobi.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
That's not at all subjective and hyperbolic.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When has Kit Fisto shown actual Force-speed on screen, like QGJ did explicitly in TPM?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kenobi could do that too.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Am I to believe that Qui-Gon, Jedi Council material and long time Jedi Master, is unable to?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Why isn't Kit Fisto serving on the Council in TPM then?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Absolute bollocks. He did not fight evenly with her; she beat his ass. His form is primitive and even as a master of it, he is outshined.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Non-precog using Grievous, who has no TK.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Padawan Barriss Offee in The Approaching Storm makes a solid ring of light using her saber while doing a compass dance for natives.

Offee > Qui-Gon Jinn?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Well after Qui-Gon was dead, and nowhere near the capability of Obi, Anakin, Maul, or anyone of merit.

You seem to place far too much significance on forms and nexuses. Why don't you just go and marry a nexus and cheat on her with Makashi you gigantic whore!

Why don't you go **** yourself?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Qui-Gon wasn't in his prime either at TPM time. He was past his prime. (TPM Novel).

Yes, but he was closer to it than Fisto was.

And it's quite possible prime Qui-gon might beat prime Fisto, but the Qui-gon we saw I think doesn't hold the edge.

There still were great elite duelists at the time (amongst the best of all time) like Anoon, Dooku, Windu. And Qui-Gon was considered in the elite. He was even the best swordsman his Lightsaber instructor had taught in hundreds of years (TPM novel). [/B]

Sure, I'm not saying they weren't, but the ones who lived got even stronger (Dooku says he got better as a Sith, Windu certainly improved). And multiple Jedi, including Fisto, get called out as being incredibly exceptional.

I'm of the opinion that the good duelists of the war are simply more battle-harded, the new generation has a few more talented individuals, and they're a little more skilled on average as a result- Kenobi is certainly better than Qui-gon by the end.

Or to put it another way- The Jedi went from having a few at Qui-gon level, him and Anoon, to having a few more at Qui-gon level and a few above it.

Originally posted by Q99
Jinn was around when Fisto wasn't yet a master, let alone one of the better combatants on the council.

That's one thing about Qui-Gon being one of the best- most of the best duelists if the Clone War were young and inexperienced then, and .

Windu was great even at the time, but he did not yet invent Vaapad, meaning he's a nice big step down from his Sidious-fighting self. Fisto, Kenobi, Skywalker, Shaak Ti, Mundi, all of 'em were younger and weaker, I don't think a single one of those was even a master yet, and maybe not even knights.

Or to put it another way, Qui-Gon was one of the best at a time when the Jedi, being largely at peace, had only a smaller number of strong duelists. Kit Fisto came at the time of a whole wave of new combat prodigies who honed their skill in a war, and where the best of the old guard sharpened their skills more. One of the best of the Clone Wars is higher praise than one of the best a decade or so before.

The difference is that QGJ is more firmly established to be one of the true elite of his time, whereas Kit Fisto is only ever vaguely referred to as one of the best, and loses to a green Ventress and gets demolished by Sidious, and his feats aren't really all that impressive.

I don't think your info is that accurate either, and I think you give way too much credit to the Clone Wars, which wasn't very duelling oriented anyway.

Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, old-Grievous, Ventress, Anoon Bondara, QGJ, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, and Maul are all firmly above the likes of Kit Fisto, Shaak Ti, Mundi, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin etc., some more significantly than others obviously.

The difference is that QGJ is more firmly established to be one of the true elite of his time, whereas Kit Fisto is only ever vaguely referred to as one of the best, and loses to a green Ventress and gets demolished by Sidious, and his feats aren't really all that impressive.

On the flip side, he does quite well against General Grievous, which is nothing to laugh about, and practically anyone will be demolished by Sidious, with just a few exceptions, and Windu only brought him alone because he was very strong.

I don't think your info is that accurate either, and I think you give way too much credit to the Clone Wars, which wasn't very duelling oriented anyway.

Not too much- well, outside of the ones who bumped into Ventress, Grievous, and Maul all the time like Kenobi- but it's still heavy, heavy combat. And there's still a number of opportunities to face dueling opponents like Magnadroids, and the Nikto clone army the CIS made once (the Jedi kept it bottled up on one planet, but it took multiple months of combat to prevail against them).

Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, old-Grievous, Ventress, Anoon Bondara, QGJ, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, and Maul are all firmly above the likes of Kit Fisto, Shaak Ti, Mundi, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin etc., some more significantly than others obviously.

See, I wouldn't agree with that in Annon's case. Anoon got tooled by Maul, while later Kenobi does well against him, and Kenobi doesn't perform *that* much different than the masters in your second list against most foes.

Anoon is, if anything, an example of what I'm talking about. His fight with Maul wasn't even all that impressive or close, I very much would expect "Killed a dozen Magnadroids at once Shaak Ti" or "Was winning against Grievous Kit Fisto" to give Maul a superior fight.