Kit Fisto vs. Qui-Gon Jinn

Originally posted by Q99

Yes, but he was closer to it than Fisto was.

And it's quite possible prime Qui-gon might beat prime Fisto, but the Qui-gon we saw I think doesn't hold the edge.

Sure, I'm not saying they weren't, but the ones who lived got even stronger (Dooku says he got better as a Sith, Windu certainly improved). And multiple Jedi, including Fisto, get called out as being incredibly exceptional.

I'm of the opinion that the good duelists of the war are simply more battle-harded, the new generation has a few more talented individuals, and they're a little more skilled on average as a result- Kenobi is certainly better than Qui-gon by the end.

Or to put it another way- The Jedi went from having a few at Qui-gon level, him and Anoon, to having a few more at Qui-gon level and a few above it. [/B]

But you have no proof. Like it or not there are great lengths made about Anoon Bondara for example being truly great in the grand scheme of things, a contemporary of Windu etc and QGJ is right in that discussion.

The same can not be said about Kit Fisto during the CW, who doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence as Windu when you compare their performances against Sids.

Originally posted by Q99
[B]On the flip side, he does quite well against General Grievous, which is nothing to laugh about,

Grievous Lite, not old-Grievous, which is a huge difference.

and practically anyone will be demolished by Sidious, with just a few exceptions, and Windu only brought him alone because he was very strong.

Not like those three were. I think there are a fair few that would perform closer to Mace than to Kit against Sidious.

See, I wouldn't agree with that in Annon's case. Anoon got tooled by Maul, while later Kenobi does well against him, and Kenobi doesn't perform *that* much different than the masters in your second list against most foes.

Zone Kenobi =/= TPM Kenobi.

Anoon, as well as QGJ, were both clearly outclassed by Maul, who's obv just that damn good, but still put up a fight. Still not as bad as getting absolutely annihilated by Sids imo, or losing to a green Ventress.

Anoon is, if anything, an example of what I'm talking about. His fight with Maul wasn't even all that impressive or close, I very much would expect "Killed a dozen Magnadroids at once Shaak Ti" or "Was winning against Grievous Kit Fisto" to give Maul a superior fight.

It's hard to compare those feats, but at the very least Anoon and QGJ being peers of Mace Windu, and yet being outclassed by Maul, are compatible. Kit being absolutely demolished by Sids is not compatible with him being a peer of Windu's, as the others are.

Here's how I would sum up my thoughts:

1. As a low showing, Kit's performance against Sids <<< QGJ's performance against Maul.

2. There is actually a strong case to be made that QGJ is a genuine peer of Mace's, whereas the fight against Sidious if anything proves that Kit Fisto is not even close.

3. I don't think a strong case can be made that RotS Mace is all that much greater than TPM Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I was confused because your reference had nothing to do with my point.

It's the only time in the book that Kenobi and Fisto are directly contrasted in deed. So it's entirely relevant. Your glaring ignorance of it makes me wonder how much of the book you read, if any at all.

Indeed?

Kit, when holding back, > AotC Kenobi.
Kit, not holding back, >> AotC Kenobi.

So yes, there is a good gap between them.

And how did you infer this? AoTC Kenobi was holding back as well. It was a non-lethal mock battle designed to fool the locals into thinking that the Sith/Confederacy was their enemy and the Republic was their friend.

No.

Then the point is moot.

This is a strawman. No one ever insinuated that Kit's unarmed slaughter of them was supposed to put him over Qui-Gon, only that it would make Asajj's victory over Kit less significant.

But it doesn't, because the young stupid untrained non-Force sensitive thugs he takes out barely do anything. Fisto wasn't winded from the weaksauce combat; Jedi spar and duel from children through adulthood, and he's earlier on noted as having incredible stamina and endurance, able to maintain perfect balance on his haunches for an hour plus without faltering.

If anything, they provided a quick warm up for him and Ventress KO'd him immediately after passively watching.

Ventress >> Kit Fisto.

You have no proof that Qui-Gon practitioned Makashi, so yes, I do, especially since Asajj is more skilled than Jinn anyways.

"Ventress is more skilled than Jinn"

So ****ing baseless.

Also, Qui-Gon Jinn's master practiced Makashi and all but perfected it. You think Qui-Gon remained completely ignorant of the style throughout his padawan-ship?

Anything else you'd like to assert without proof?

The mix of red herring and lowballing is amusing.

It's the bloody truth. Form I is the most basic, primal forms, developed well before saber to saber dueling was common. Fisto's adhering to it is an anachronism and it didn't help him against Force neophyte Ventress or anyone else, except for Grievous the Jobber, who goes from one-man murdering the Jedi in early EU to some Snidley Whiplash expy of no note whatsoever.

I just posted the quote?

K.

Shaak Ti can kill Magnaguards. Anakin and Obi-Wan murder them without breaking a sweat.

Can they all defeat Jinn?

You aren't building a case; you're pointing to various unrelated feats and then saying your case is evident. Learn how 2 debate.

Did you even read what I posted?

I did, yes. Do you read what I post at all? I've indicated instances from a work you claim to have read but remain strangely uneducated about, and I've provided a source quote for an assertion I made about Jinn's relative abilities. You've used hyperbole, baseless assertions, and one-line refutations and somehow maintain that your argument is more sound.

Baffling.

MagnaGuards are formidable in the Dark Lord trilogy, yes.

Relevance? What Force user of any merit has Fisto slain or defeated?

Wait for it.

None.

Sure, but Jinn has nothing on that level. For that matter, TPM Obi-Wan is faster than Jinn,

No, they both moved the same speed. When the Force speed was used, they ran side by side. Also, Kenobi's rage!speed is not itself indicative of his normal dueling speed. Qui-Gon Jinn dueled much better than Kenobi by a longshot. I reviewed the battle moment by moment with I think KT very recently. Kenobi didn't do anything of note until Jinn was dead and he was giving in to his rage.

and Kit astounded AotC Obi-Wan with his speed.

Obi-Wan held the Nautolan in high esteem for many things; his work ethic, his steadfastness, and his strength, etc. Kit's speed isn't noting as being above and beyond what Jedi can use. In combat, Fisto hasn't demonstrated speed above and beyond that Obi/Anakin/Jinn have used in any case.

None, since his on screen showings are against Grievous and Sidious.

The former who he defeated and the latter he died to in the second swing.

K.

Work on building that case, bro.

What does Kenobi have to do with anything?

Kenobi's TK is the same as Fisto's, the same as Anakin's, and probably the same as Barriss Offee's. It's not outside of the realm of Jinn, and it's not a definitive win, so it's a red herring to assume it is one.

Could he? Maybe, but considering that Kit accomplished the feat without any strain at all, it is safe to say that he is more telekinetically able than Jinn.

Really? I don't recall Jinn straining to TK anything. Maybe you can educate us with your conclusive evidence.

Because he was not ready?

He wasn't elevated until the war. I admit, much of his growth and ascendance to mastery was after Jinn died. But my point remains that much of your assertions he is superior are baseless, and horribly lacking in conclusive evidence.

He was beaten because Shii-Cho’s weakness is Makashi, and despite that, he held out against her.

He didn't hold out against her; he fell to her before Obi-Wan could finish defeating his own mooks, which is record time. You can sugar-coat it with "HURR, it's his weakness", but the fact remains he lost to a very green Dark Jedi (Ventress well before her prime) and his only showing of any serious merit includes either Force-less mooks of no value, or Grievous lite.

Way to build that case.

The same Grievous who fought evenly with Asajj and Obi-Wan multiple times.

Evenly? Lol.

Given that a ‘’solid ring’’ is not even remotely comparable to what Kit did (or what Jinn has done, for that matter), no.

Do you even know what I'm talking about?

She maintained a rotating blade so fast it appeared to other Jedi as a solid ring of light, while doing a complex compass dance, in a show of dexterity that blew the minds of her fellow Jedi.

So how is this one feat relevant?

LOL. Nowhere near any of them? Kit is in the same league as Kenobi and Maul, and even if he wasn’t, Jinn is not either, so this proves nothing.

Same league as Kenobi and Maul?

So he could kill Anoon Bondara in seconds?

He could nearly threaten Sidious as Maul did?

He could defend against Anakin for ten plus minutes?

More baseless assertions. Shameful.

What Force user of merit has Jinn slain or defeated?

Wait for it.

None.

😂

To be serious, though, I have no interest in continuing this debate. Just about all of your posts are either red herrings or strawmans mixed with lowballing. If you can't provide an honest argument, then don't provide one at all.

It never actually occurred to me that both Qui-Gon and Ventress have that big thing in common- That they were both trained by Count Dooku. Considering all the Makashi Ventress learned from Dooku, I agree with Stealth Moose that it would be silly to think that Qui-Gon never learnt anything of note from Dooku's fencing style. Dooku even as a Jedi would definitely teach his padawan a good load of fencing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
What Force user of merit has Jinn slain or defeated?

Wait for it.

[b]None.

😂

To be serious, though, I have no interest in continuing this debate. Just about all of your posts are either red herrings or strawmans mixed with lowballing. If you can't provide an honest argument, then don't provide one at all. [/B]

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It never actually occurred to me that both Qui-Gon and Ventress have that big thing in common- That they were both trained by Count Dooku. Considering all the Makashi Ventress learned from Dooku, I agree with Stealth Moose that it would be silly to think that Qui-Gon never learnt anything of note from Dooku's fencing style. Dooku even as a Jedi would definitely teach his padawan a good load of fencing.

👆

Not that it really matters, as his mastery of Makashi would be inferior to his mastery of Ataru.

Compared to Jinn, who spent part of his childhood into early adulthood if not more with Dooku (not counting other Makashi practitioners in the Temple like Cin Drallig, Anoon, etc.), Ventress was not even Dooku's apprentice six months before her fight with Fisto, and she was not even training the whole time either; she was engaged in fights with Jedi almost continually.

Pretty safe to say her knowledge of Makashi was minimal compared to Jinn's, even if the the latter largely eschewed it for Ataru.

Originally posted by Q99
Conceeded.

I will say he didn't *perfect* it, though, which iirc happened late in the CW.

Ehh it was already a recognized form that Qui-Gon refused to let Obi-Wan practice when he was determining his saber form.