Accidentally voted for the Sith btw, stupid poll...
I think JvS and PoD differ a bit on that, and we don't know that they were planing on sending them to fight without training them, but might have been training them on sight.
maybe it was a sign of how desperate they were that they would use literally anybody if you feel that is the case, but that doesnt reflect on the higher ups, just their priorities (they knew the war was ending and realised that training for the future wasnt that important anymore, hence jedi younglings having shorter training times before being sent to war).
Originally posted by Nephthys
"They are the strongest of our order," Kopecz reminded him. "We both know even the lowliest students on Korriban are stronger than half the so-called Dark Lords here on Ruusan."Yeah, the Brotherhood really wasn't that great.
I'm assuming that half the Lords were total crap, some where a bit better, but the top were still reasonably strong.
I mean, Bane admitted that Kaan, while a fool, was strong, and Bane's strength is still respected down to the CW (view TCW Season 6 where Yoda visits his tomb).
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Kopekz was just being overly critical?Plus it's all relative bro. Perhaps the students were just that damn good?
Given that Sirak, the top student at the academy (not including Bane) turned out to be utterly feeble, I highly doubt that the average students were "just that damn good" compared to anyone else. They'd get trounced by Jedi/Sith from almost any other era.
You might say "well Sirak lost to Bane who is heckuva powerful" which would be fair enough except:
1) Bane wasn't at the peak of his power when he beat him (he had improved greatly but he wasn't quite at the pinnacle of his personal growth).
2) It was noted that Bane held back throughout the duel and dragged it out to achieve a truly crushing victory.
3) In the final confrontation Sirak folded the second things went south.
And again, he was supposed to be the best.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well yeah that's what I figure. The top Sith are obviously pretty good, I mean Kaan was mind-controlling a shitton of Sith which is impressive as hell but if half the Lords in the Brotherhood are crap then I'd say that the Order as a whole isn't strong.
Sure the top brass had some powerful figures but the rank and file (which is what this thread is about) were generally weak.
So because Bane was so much better than Sirak Sirak definitely wasn't that good?
Maybe Bane, even then, was just that damn good? He was already ridiculously fast (the move where he defeated Sirak in the first fight he moved so fast time seemed to be frozen and nobody realised what had immediately happened) and had amazing lightning (creating storms the size of a large assembly hall the first time he used it).
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
So because Bane was so much better than Sirak Sirak definitely wasn't that good?
Exactly. Sirak didn't do anything to suggest he was this amazing Sith everyone seemed to think he was. The only impressive thing he did was be able to learn new combat sequences real quick.
Again, he was supposed to be the best student at the top academy. If the valedictorian himself isn't that hot, what does that say about the other students, the ones supposedly levels below him?
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Maybe Bane, even then, was just that damn good? He was already ridiculously fast (the move where he defeated Sirak in the first fight he moved so fast time seemed to be frozen and nobody realised what had immediately happened) and had amazing lightning (creating storms the size of a large assembly hall the first time he used it).
Keep in mind that Bane only achieved that level of super-speed because throughout the duel he was holding back and storing up power before releasing that stored power in a concentrated burst. It's impressive certainly, but he could't do it at the drop of a hat.
What proof do we have that the rank-and-file Sith of this era (and by extension the Jedi they fought) were that good?
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Exactly.
Why can't Bane just have been that good?
Sirak didn't do anything to suggest he was this amazing Sith everyone seemed to think he was.
Absence of proof does not = proof of absence.
Keep in mind that Bane only achieved that level of super-speed because throughout the duel he was holding back and storing up power before releasing that stored power in a concentrated burst. It's impressive certainly, but he could't do it at the drop of a hat.
Not true, he wasn't storing energy up, he was just holding that energy back, he still ahd access to it at the beginning.
What proof do we have that the rank-and-file Sith of this era (and by extension the Jedi they fought) were that good?
The Sith and Jedi of the NSW were the most combat oriented version of Jedi and Sith there had ever been - JvS combat specifically. Over a thousand years to condition themselves to war against other Force Users. No other order of Force Users can say they had that advantage.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Why can't Bane just have been that good?
Why can't Sirak just have been that lame?
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Absence of proof does not = proof of absence.
Maybe not but we go by feats here and Sirak has none.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Not true, he wasn't storing energy up, he was just holding that energy back, he still ahd access to it at the beginning.
Yes true, he was storing energy up.
"He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside him in a tremendous rush of power."
The term "bottled up" means that the energy was being stored and held in reserve. The "tremendous rush of power" also shows that it was a concentrated burst, not something he can do just like that.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
The Sith and Jedi of the NSW were the most combat oriented version of Jedi and Sith there had ever been - JvS combat specifically. Over a thousand years to condition themselves to war against other Force Users. No other order of Force Users can say they had that advantage.
The "over a thousand years" bit is a great exaggeration. Jensaarai1 has pointed out that the New Sith Wars occurred in stops and starts. A thousand years of non-stop warfare isn't sustainable.
Plus, as pointed out earlier, the fact that the Jedi were bringing in untrained children shows how desperate they were. Clearly a lot of their veterans were dead and the up-and-comers were under-trained.
No, we sometimes use feats as an indicator of a character's abilities but it isn't our only measure and it doesn't give you freedom to assert that an absence of proof = proof of absence. At the end of the day we go by what is the most probable scenario, and it's simply more likely that somebody who was mistaken to be the Sith'ari simply has absurdly good potential and that Bane was just that much better that he outclassed him, and we are given every reason to believe that Bane was just that fantastic.
You realise that quote doesn't disagree with what I was saying, right? As I said he was holding that energy back throughout the duration of the fight, but he wasn't building it up. He has access to it whenever he chooses to unleash his rage.
The war might have gone cold from time to time, but it was still the reality of the situation throughout the conflict.
It was made clear that this was not characteristic of the Jedi and maybe they were becoming a little desperate by the end of the war, but this thread is about the NSW Jedi as a whole, not just the AoL. Also, I stand by my claim that we have no idea that the Jedi were ready to start using them in combat, or if they simply had to bring them closer to the front lines to be trained, possibly because there were no trainers being held in reserve.
Actually even Lord Kaan was no match for PoD Bane in a duel, I also recall that PoD Bane choked a very senior brotherhood figure to death without any challenge. The only individual who is a good warrior in brotherhood is Kas'im (excluding Bane). All other are shit.
ToR Sith will have a field day with brotherhood, easily demolish the latter group. ToR Sith represent epitome of Sith standards in the mythos.
Bane's stronger because he's got pretty much the best force powers in the time- we've seen there's a number of strong duelists around, the Jedi had multiple ones that were formidable when matched against Bane and Zannah, and presumably pre-thought bomb they'd have a good deal more.
One of Bane's complaints was that the Sith were just learning to swing sabers, and not the true depths of the dark side.
Bane would've beaten Kaan, but he didn't feel Kaan was weak, and I'd say it'd mostly be due to better knowledge of the dark side.
My view is the best of the late-NSW sith were pretty great at sabers due to extreme levels of practice against opponents, but were conversely behind the curve at force knowledge.
Originally posted by Nephthys
4. Thats not how it works in the TOR era Empire. An Sith Acolyte is put through literal hell just to survive the training on Korriban, often sent on suicidal missions for no reason at all. In the entire mythos the concept of survival of the fittest is most prevailant in this era in these Sith.
Good thing I've finally played some of the Sith classes so that I am now in a position to expose your lies, bitch.
It's stated in the "Peace for the Republic?" holovid that the growth of the Sith Empire was largely due to a surprising and uncharacteristic level of cooperation and sacrifice from the Sith.
Likewise, it's revealed during the prologues for the Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes that fighting between the apprentices was strictly forbidden (everywhere with the exception of Naga Sadow's tomb) and was punishable by death.
Lastly, if you're basing the sucidal missions on the missions the SI was being sent on, it's made clear that overseer Harkun was trying to eliminate him and favoured Ffon Althe, and that it was hardly the norm.
Survival of the fittest most prevalent in this era of Sith? Negro please.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
[B]
It's stated in the "Peace for the Republic?" holovid that the growth of the Sith Empire was largely due to a surprising and uncharacteristic level of cooperation and sacrifice from the Sith.---
Survival of the fittest most prevalent in this era of Sith? Negro please.
They were the One Sith of their time, at least until things started to come apart during the Peace.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Good thing I've finally played some of the Sith classes so that I am now in a position to expose your lies, bitch.[/b]
Most of my information comes from the encyclopedia so you should get ready to get embarrassed.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It's stated in the "Peace for the Republic?" holovid that the growth of the Sith Empire was largely due to a surprising and uncharacteristic level of cooperation and sacrifice from the Sith.
True, for the most part Vitiate keeps everyone working together and his unquestionable authority prevents serious in-fighting.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Likewise, it's revealed during the prologues for the Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes that fighting between the apprentices was strictly forbidden (everywhere with the exception of Naga Sadow's tomb) and was punishable by death.Lastly, if you're basing the sucidal missions on the missions the SI was being sent on, it's made clear that overseer Harkun was trying to eliminate him and favoured Ffon Althe, and that it was hardly the norm.
The same was true in PoD and was still noted to be ignored when it suited people. Just like in the TOR era it was only technically forbidden. It still happens all the freaking time. "Strictlt forbidden' just means 'Don't be seen. Too much.' You have opportunities to fight and kill other acolytes practically in plain view in the game.
Other apprentices aren't the only thing acolytes had to worry about. The standards of the academy are truly brutal and often a single mistake is the end of the road. If that. Sometimes theres no mistake at all. As I recall Harkun kills an acolyte for absolutely no reason at one point. Theres a plethora of other threats like beasts, droids, failed acolytes and other things as well.
"Instructors of Sith acolytes, the overseers are tasked with rooting out the weak and molding the next great Sith who will lead the Empire to glory. Cruelty, manipulation and deceit are choice tools of instruction. By demanding nothing short of perfection from their class of students, acolytes quickly learn the cost of failure. While still a young teacher, Overseer Ragate took delight in cutting down the first acolyte to stumble under her tutelage - a grim and effective warning to her surviving students.
Brutality is only one way an overseer shapes Sith acolytes. Some plant seeds of deception, showering weaker acolytes with praise to goad another student to strike them down. Others dispatch students on impossible tasks in the deadly tombs or hostile wastes of Korriban. Overseer Rance was one such instructor, sending his students into the lower wilds. For days, the corrupting influence of Korribans wilds twisted their minds and drove the students mad. Only two students returned to Rance. He simply smiled and ordered the exhausted acolytes to battle to the death. The victor would be Sith."
"But regardless of their background, most acolytes die utter failures, their weakness exposed by the crushing demands of the Sith Academy on Korriban.
Whether broken by the overseers instruction, struck down by their fellow acolytes or devoured by the beasts of Korriban, many acolytes perish during traning."
By comparison to its earlier brutality, the academy on Korriban that we see in PoD looks like a toddler daycare.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Survival of the fittest most prevalent in this era of Sith? Negro please.
The TOR academy is the definition of survival of the fittest. You read the above. Nothing short of perfection is needed to survive.
It should be noted the Thanaton was slated to pretty much be tossed aside- even *if* he had succeeded in his impossible mission of beating the Emperor's apprentice- had he not uncovered valuable bribe material in the process.
So it's often more a matter of luck or politics than potential/strength that allows survival.