Originally posted by Placidity
Watch Thor fight scene.Then watch Cap fight scene.
The lower tier characters like Cap, Widow and Hawkeye all have a place on the team because of their extraordinary skill.
If this thread was Cap vs Thor, giving human Thor only Cap's strength/durability, people might think differently about it.
Cap regularly beats up guys that are far weaker than him. He beat up Hydra guys, but that's not really impressive considering that he has a huge physical advantage over them. He beat up Chitauri, but again not really impressive since Chitauri didn't show any enhance strength or whatever, considering that BW also had no trouble muscling them around.
When Thor beat up the SHIELD agents, he was also only human. He didn't have a physical advantage over them like Cap did over Hydra soldiers. In a deleted scene in Thor TDW, Thor took on 4-5 fellow Asgardian guards. The guards were armed, he was not, and he still beat the crap out of them. Thor also took on multiple Frost Giants easily, and Frost giants are not exactly weak.
Basically, Thor is used to beating up guys who are more or less within his same strength class. Cap usually only beats up guys a lot weaker than him. The only time he went up against someone in his strength class was against Red Skull and he struggled with that.
It's not who he beats up, its how he beats them up and how he takes out many in an effective, efficient and fast manner.
Lets just say, if Thor was given Cap's strength/durability (and lets say he got used to his new human-ness), and sent in to fight the same guys, he wouldn't do nearly as well. Might not even make it.
Cap on the other hand, given Thor's powers would do fairly well against Thor's enemies if he got used to wielding the hammer.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Given that a human level Thor walked through 90% of the shield agents he fought...why wouldn't he do even better with Cap level stats?
Because they weren't trying to kill him. Maybe.
And if you would like to use that feat, Cap would leave him in the dust. Complete brawler style, slow and still relied on his superior strength.
Originally posted by Placidity
Because they weren't trying to kill him. Maybe.And if you would like to use that feat, Cap would leave him in the dust. Complete brawler style - still relied on his superior strength.
So your argument is that the Shield agents were holding back against an unknown guy that broke into their base?
Originally posted by Silent Master
So your proof that they were holding back in hth is that they didn't use ranged weapons?
No, you sneaky little manipulator.
I said he wouldn't do well, or even survive against Cap's enemies which were trying to KILL him with guns, flame-throwers etc etc.
YOU said that because Thor beat up 2 or 3 goons (you used 90% instead of giving absolute numbers - another sneak tactic) you make out to be super elite agents proved that Thor would do just as well.
The comparison is completely invalid.
You also implied that the agents WERE trying to KILL him because "an was an unknown guy broke into their base". Of course you were WRONG - they weren't trying to kill him. If they were, he would've been shot on sight. I never said they were holding back H2H.
Do you ever debate honestly?
Originally posted by Placidity
If it weren't "heavy", it would not send people flying back when hit because the speed just isn't there.It's not just a little frisbee anyone can backhand (Winter Soldier is likely enhanced).
F= ma
"a" is visibly not high enough to explain impact / "F".
Therefore, "m" is also considerable.
Eh, no. This is completely oversimplifying a very complex problem. After all, a object with a constant velocity (a=0) can hit someone with more force than an accelerating object. When calculating a collision and more specifically a punch much more has to be taken into consideration than velocity and mass.
Now, you can use said equation to figure out the force of the shield bash. But it depends on the mass and acceleration of the object that is hit, in this case the person sent flying.
Originally posted by Silent Master
Why wouldn't he do as well though, he has enough skill to walk through the vast majority of Shield agents with just human level strength and even beat one that appeared to be both stronger and more durable than him after a short fight.
1. Thor was still stronger than a normal human. I think are a few scenes where he can't be restrained by a several men - Thor overpowers them with his strength, not skill. He also gets hit by a car twice, and there is no damage.
2. Nothing can be said of the skill of the SHIELD agents except they looked rather unimpressive. You are right to say Cap's enemies did not display any noteworthy skill either, but they compensated by using guns/grenades/flamethrowers etc. Thor has never displayed the kind of skill or speed to negotiate such a situation.
3. Cap would've one-shot the "big guy".
Originally posted by ares834
Eh, no. This is completely oversimplifying a very complex problem. After all, a object with a constant velocity (a=0) can hit someone with more force than an accelerating object. When calculating a collision and more specifically a punch much more has to be taken into consideration than velocity and mass.Now, you can use said equation to figure out the force of the shield bash. But it depends on the mass and acceleration of the object that is hit, in this case the person sent flying.
Doesn't matter.
Neither acceleration nor velocity/speed was sufficiently high to cause such impact for a low mass object.
You can use momentum if you'd like. m1v1=m2v2
Even though I mentioned it, its not like I'm saying real life physics counts for everything, but IMO it was not depicted to be super light.
Originally posted by Placidity
No, you sneaky little manipulator.I said he wouldn't do well, or even survive against Cap's enemies which were trying to KILL him with guns, flame-throwers etc etc.
YOU said that because Thor beat up 2 or 3 goons (you used 90% instead of giving absolute numbers - another sneak tactic) you make out to be super elite agents proved that Thor would do just as well.
The comparison is completely invalid.
You also implied that the agents WERE trying to KILL him because "an was an unknown guy broke into their base". Of course you were WRONG - they weren't trying to kill him. If they were, he would've been shot on sight. I never said they were holding back H2H.
Do you ever debate honestly?
Hold on. Are you telling me that your proof of Cap's superior h2h skill is because he beat up hydra soldiers who were using guns and flame throwers against him?
Care to at least provide examples of Cap easily beating opponents who were trying to melee with him?
Originally posted by Silent Master
1) There is no evidence that Thor was stronger than a normal human his size, I can easily post half a dozen youtube clips of multiple people having trouble restraining someone.2) They were stated to be some of the best trained in the world
3) Because Cap has superhuman strength.
1. You neglected to explain how a normal would not be hurt after being hit with a car, twice.
2. On-screen feats in most cases over-rule statement's made by characters - that is, they fought like goons. And the skill level that Coulson refers to is relative. Were they as skilled as Captain America? Were they as skilled as Black Widow? Hawkeye? Does being most skilled in your own movie automatically means you are as skilled as someone else that is the most skilled in another movie?
3. True. Even though I believe Thor had above-human strength too. But ignoring that for now - "big guy" wouldn't land a single hit on Cap.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Hold on. Are you telling me that your proof of Cap's superior h2h skill is because he beat up hydra soldiers who were using guns and flame throwers against him?
No, the proof is in the fight scenes, as I said in the beginning.
Why is it that whenever someone begins with "are you telling me...", or "are you really saying...", that it is inevitably NOT what you said?
Originally posted by FrothByte
Care to at least provide examples of Cap easily beating opponents who were trying to melee with him?
I could, or you could just watch the movies again.
If I believed you could actually be convinced, I actually would have.
To me, the difference is so self-evident that if someone can maintain that Thor is Cap's equal in skill, its just time to agree to disagree.
1) Thor was hurt, did you even watch the movie?
2) Coulson covered their poor showing during his interview with Thor, again have you even watched the movie?
3) Except, Thor didn't have superhuman strength during that scene and again Cap's speed is also above human, whereas in that scene Thor had human level speed.
Originally posted by Silent Master
1) Thor was hurt, did you even watch the movie?
2) Coulson covered their poor showing during his interview with Thor, again have you even watched the movie?
3) Except, Thor didn't have superhuman strength during that scene and again Cap's speed is also above human, whereas in that scene Thor had human level speed.
1. So a normal human can get hit by a car twice, tasered, drugged, and just stroll around a short while later as if nothing happened? You should go outside and do a little experiment.
Yes, I have watched the movie.
2. Again, I have watched the movie.
3. You had to point out something I said already? Cap's speed is above human. But for the purposes of this thread, Cap maintains his speed advantage, so this does not need to be controlled for.
Only 1 out of 3 relevant discussion points. Try again.