Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. What? Sidious had already launched his attack. Mace reacted to Sids invalidating your assertion that Mace couldn't react to Sids2. Right, but as Sids asked Tiin to use telepathy they weren't expecting sids to attack at that moment which is why they were caught off guard.
3. Mace starts "sinking into Vapaad" after "the green light faded and winked out".
Additionally, by the time Mace sinks into Vapaad, they've already been fighting for a period of time 1 v 1 as evinced by their fight moving to another room before hand:4. So then Mace doesn't need to be able to perceive sids to react to and compete with him? Noted. Rewatch the clip, Sids is mid-attack when Mace steps back, he can react to him.
5. That doesn't apply to tier 9. Gillard has stated that once you get to tier 9, the environment and fighting styles decide fights rather than skill. Tier 9's are all on the same level. That Mace is bordering on that tier even without vapaad(with which he becomes a 9) renders your argument that he can't even react to him a little asinine.
6.
Lets note that there's no context here specifying that compete is limited to a sabers only engagement which means at a minimum, regardless of sid's force powers, mace can compete with him which, at a minimum, revalidates the notion of sidious being able to one-shot him with the force(aka force choke) which renders the idea of revan taking a force based victory rather questionable(And yes, I think sids could one-shot the fck out of revan).7. His inability to react is a falsehood.
8. I assume you mean Dooku?
A. Mace isn't tied to being equal to dooku, in fact, that mace as of rots is an eight bordering nine while Diooku's only an 8 suggests windu is superior.
B. Dooku wasn't defending himself and had his defenes down in TCW, where passive defenses are rather non existent when It comes to force attacks(see Ahsoka blasting Ventress). That's not a valid ragdoll.The point's moot.
9. Right because Sidious launched a surprise attack. In the movie, where there was no surprise attack mentioned, Mace is able to step back and then defends all of Sidious's attack.
10. Mace steps back when sidious initially attacks, at that point he can't defend any of his friends
1. Are you brain dead? The sequence of events in the timestamp you linked are as follows.
Sidious jumps forward to land in front of the Jedi.
Mace steps back and raised his blade.
Sidious blitzes Kolar and Tiin before Windu can react.
2. That's your assumption. I say Mace wouldn't have lowered his guard for such petty tricks.
3. Just because the text notes that Windu is "sinking into Vaapad" after Sidious has dealt with the rest of the B team doesn't mean it hadn't been active before that point.
4. Regardless, he wasn't even able to move to defend Tinn or Kolar in the video and in the novel. That's a fact. I've watched the video numerous times now. The sequence of events is still as I described above and not whatever you're delusional mind has conjured up for you.
5. It's relevant then that Mace isn't a tier 9. And where is it noted that Mace would possess such a ranking without Vaapad?
6. Your statement is completely asinine. If an author said "Batman could beat superman." In a conversation referencing how he'd do in a fight against Superman, I could just as easily say "There's no context here indicating Batman couldn't defeat Superman without kryptonite or pep."
The thing is. We KNOW that Batman is a prep god and in possession of kryptonite ( Superman's weakness ) and we know Mace's form allows him to channel Darkside energy to amp himself.
It's retarded to assume Mace without his normal tools would be able to defeat Sidious simply because it doesn't clarify if that's the case or not.
7. Except it's not.
8. How is that relevant to their comparative power in the Force?
Dooku wasn't defending himself and had his defenes down in TCW
Proof?
where passive defenses are rather non existent when It comes to force attacks(see Ahsoka blasting Ventress). That's not a valid ragdoll.
Irrelevant since we're discussing it in context of Legends continuity.
9. There's no surprise attack. He's unarmed. He gets Tiin to lower his blade slightly. The person who would've been devoting focus and energy to reading Palpatine's mind. You haven't provided a single shred of evidence indicating this would be the case for the other members of the B team.
Mace steps back before Sidious attacks. I don't understand why this isn't getting through to you.
10. Mace steps back BEFORE Sidious attacks. And Mace was still ahead of everybody else before he stepped back. He would've still been roughly to the side of Kolar and Tiin after he re-positioned.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah to be fair, I don't necessarily care for what Marvel has done to the lesser characters and what not.Rebirh seems convoluted as ****, though
I find Lucas' rankings to clear stuff up tbh. Note, Gillard is simply telling us what Lucas gave him and made it into a system, so the Lightsaber rankings are pretty much the highest form of canon. The EU I find has too many inconsistencies regarding the combatants of the Clone Wars, such as Dooku being equal to Yoda and what-not. Gillard/Lucas is straight forward.
Originally posted by ZenwolfDon't get me wrong, they're definitely used more now then they used to be way back. It's prolly coz people are making more use of statements for more definitive placement of characters
Eh maybe I'm looking at more threads lately then, just never recall seeing it so many times. /Shrug
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZAs for the force scaling...I actually did give you specific evidence in terms of scaling/feats as to why Revan lolstomps Kenobi:
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[*]Revan Reborn, after waking up from a coma and being imprisoned/tortured/drugged by drugs that literally weakened his connection to the force for 3 years, was capable of "easily" catching Nyriss's charged lightning storm and reflecting it back at her. This lightning storm was so powerful that it was capable of ashing Meetra, Scourge, and Nyriss herself, even after she'd thrown up a force barrier. Kenobi under no circumstances is "easily" catching and reflecting Nyriss's charged lightning storm, much less in the horrible conditions Revan was in.
[*]Darth Nihilus, who is powerful enough to drain entire planets of life, ragdoll his capital ship, and possibly his whole fleet, from the immense gravity wells of Malachor V, isn't even as powerful as Mandalorian Wars Revan, according to Meetra. Revan has gotten "far more powerful" since the mandalorian wars by the Novel, much less SOR.
[*]Jadus, who is the greatest sith the empire has ever produced according to Valkorion, (which would include Nyriss and Malgus) held his dreadnought together from destruction, shook his dreadnought by getting angry, etc, is inferior to the sith protags at the start of KotFE, who in turn are far weaker than Revan.
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2, That would be Surik's subjective opinion regarding a character(nihlus) who she met once when he was massively weakened. Not to mention her opinion would naturally be skewed towards Revan who she fought alongside with and who she was a second in command to.
The scaling here is certainly not definite and that Nihlus has vastly more impressive showings than Revan's sor, let alone mandalore incarnation, I see no reason to take that seriously.
3. A. He held part of said dreadnaught
B. How large was the ship he shook? Looking at your description
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ2. Why do the cracks have to be so substantial that it would cause the entire megalith to crumble, forcing Kenobi to hold them upright? That isn't even implied at all in the text. And "shearing off" the chunks isn't the same thing as Kenobi throwing the chunks, like at all. The actual definition of shear in this context is:
"break off or cause to break off, owing to a structural strain."
So the slabs that were falling were broken off due to the cracks Kenobi was causing in the megaliths, (again, these cracks dont have to be so substantial that it would cause the entire megaliths to collapse). And it could be likened to an avalanche because a lot of shit was falling really fast, not because all the megalith columns were decimated, lol.
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1. The text notes that the fissures Kenobi is creating result in "huge" chunks slipping and falling. That while Orrin is running amok, chunks haven't started "striking all around" means the megaliths are still being kept upright despite massive chunks being separated from them. That pebbles are raining down on Orrin as he runs amok indicates the fissures are widening. Someone would have to be keeping the megaliths upright.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ]
Also, the whole "unafraid" thing doesn't imply Kenobi performed the feat easily at all. The quote just implies that he performed the feat:Even accounting for Kenobi's precision to not kill Orrin, (though it seems that Kenobi got damn close,) this feat still isn't better than what an immensely weakened Revan pulled mid-fight in the Foundry, much less all the other stuff I brought up. [/B]
2. Kenobi is "getting close" because he's trying to scare Orrin. That he can push things so precise he can get close to but not hit Orrin makes the feat substantially more impressive compared to Revan who was simply brining rocks down in a straight linear path.
3. Additionally, Kenobi pushes all these chunks, simultaneously, hence why they "strike all around" while Revan is bringing chunks down 1 by 1.
4. The problem with the viewer likening it to an avalanche because "lots of things are falling really fast" is that said viewer never actually saw the rocks coming down. What the viewer saw was "rising dust" from a "Monstrous cloud" rising from the wreckage kenobi had caused.
5. The feats aren't remotely comparable. Even just Kenobi tearing and pushing chunks was more impressive coz
A. He was tearing/pushing chunks out simultaneously while Revan was doing it one by one.
B. He was doing it with the precision that they almost but never quite hit Orrin, Revan only brought the rocks he had straight down.
then add in that Kenobi
A. Cracked an entire labyrinth worth of said megaliths
B. Held said megaliths upright
And Kenobi's showing is vastly more impressive.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Rocky, do you still wanna continue this after DMB's post, or do you want to actually move into Revan vs Windu himself?
As I'm sure you're aware, my main argument for Mace being>Revan will be based on Lucas's assertion that mace can compete with Sidious which to my knowledge wasn't exclusive to saber combat.
Now the counter to this argument is that Mace had circumstances which allowed him to compete, Vapaad and Sids throwing the fight.
My response would be that while Vapaad and Sids feigning defeat are explanations for how Mace could match/beat Sidious, they don't at all preclude Mace competing with Sidious without vapaad.
Considering that Lucas's statement was in general, Mace even without circumstances should be able to compete with sidious(backed up by sids being an 8 bordering 9).
Considering Sidious's vast superiority to Revan, I feel this is sufficient for Mace to take victory
Finally I propose that Vapaad isn't a one-time thing, but I'll get into that later