Satele Shan vs Darth Plagueis

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wtf? Yeah there is. As Legend said, Savage was still in training when that happened. Its highly probable that Savage continued his training after that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, absolutely not. Your opinion on the matter is utterly inconsequential without any evidence to back it up. And on that note: you need to rewatch the episode if you still think otherwise. Upon so doing you'll find that no training took place in between the obelisk-lifting and starship-shoving. In fact, the obelisk-lifting marked the end of Savage's training under Dooku, as he [Savage] was sent on a mission to Toydaria shortly thereafter--and it was on Toydaria that he shoved Kenobi/Anakin's ship.

Lol. We weren't shown any more training, but that hardly suggests there was no more of it. My opinion in the matter is inconsequential, yes. Yours isn't. You made the claim that no more training took place between those scenes. So you need to prove that thats the case. Just because two scenes occur in the same episode doesn't mean that they occurred within a short period of time. Just because we were shown no training after the orbalisk feat, doesn't mean there was none.

Lol indeed. I do not have to prove a negative. If no additional training was shown, mentioned, or even alluded between those scenes(and none was), then it is utterly horrendous logic to assume that any such training ambiguously took place off-screen. And while you're correct in saying that just because 2 scenes take place in the same episode doesn't always mean they take place within a short period of time, in this case it's fairly obvious they did.

-scene 1: We see Dooku and Savage's obelisk training(this occurs on Serenno just before dusk.)
-scene 2: cut-to Anakin and Kenobi arriving on Dathomir, fighting a few Dathomirians, and inquiring about Talzin's location(this only takes a few minutes, btw.)
-scene 3: cut-to Dooku sending Savage away on a mission to Toydaria(this [also] occurs on Serenno at dusk.)

So yeah, the obelisk training and Savage's departure to Toydaria definitely took place within a very short duration of time. So unless Savage's last name is "Skywalker", I have a very hard time believing he gained a significant boost during those scenes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Exal Kressh (Emperor's apprentice) have feats of great destruction under her belt. She once destroyed a gigantic space station with her powers in an attempt to kill Thanaton (try to digest this).

Okay, seriously cut the crap. I own *Blood of the Empire*, their entire battle hardly destroyed the room they were in, and the destruction of the colony was because Exal destabilized the core by damaging a Verbobrain Cluster, which isn't nearly as impressive as you make it out to be..

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So it is not 'always' wise to assume that X (Char) performed Y (Action) so X (Char) is automatically superior. This logic doesn't sits well with me at least.

But you also can't base an entire argument on sheer speculation and then persist that we are the insanely biased ones.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD However, we have seen her disintegrating a portion of a large cliff which requires more raw power in comparison to "all but atomize" some defenseless humans (Rock is much harder substance then a biological body), correct me if I am wrong.

She didn't disintegrate anything. Disintegration is the act of reducing an object to sizes of a molecular level. The impact of her wave shattered the cliff side and collapsed it, which is impressive, but it's also far cry from reducing it to dust.

Not to mention that these defenseless humans were heavily armored with materials much harder than stone.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You may argue that she sucked energy from a lightsaber beforehand and this may have empowered her for a while but why she had to gather power to perform this destructive action?

I don't understand the second half of your question, but if you're implying the lightsaber did not have a large effect--Think again.

The energy of a single blaster bolt, when converted to Force Lightning, was great enough to turn a trooper's bones to dust. Imagine how much energy can be absorbed from a constantly-sustained energy blade.

Hell, I'll do it for you.

Look at Neeja Halycon. He who had absolutely no power of his own to perform Telekinetic feats was able to replicate Satele's feat almost exactly after absorbing the lightsaber blade of his adversary.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD [B]Speed factor:

Speed wise, Satele was also "unbelievably fast" to other Force-users (I am not joking). So I don't get it that how Plagueis is supposedly faster then her (this is just your assumption).

That's not an incredibly amazing speed feat for Satele, you realize. Plagueis outrunning blaster bolts is definitely superior.

Even if you want to say it isn't, the fact that Plagueis is on Palpatine's own speed tier should be enough regardless. Palpatine was so fast that three celebrated swordsmen amongst the Jedi Council's best couldn't even perceive his movements.

By comparison, Plagueis has a wealth of speed feats that all outstrip Satele's singular accolade. Your saying that Satele is in Plagueis's speed class is the assumption here.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD [B]Strength factor:

Yes, Plagueis have biological edge over Satele since the latter is human. However, no need to underestimate Satele's strength either. At one point: Satele held Malgus at bay with one hand and used another hand to pull down a gigantic tree (Imagine the kind of power needed to pull off this kind of feat). Holding Malgus at bay is something that FEW (Force-users) can pull off strength wise. [/B]

This is true, her own strength is nothing to scoff at--However, Plagueis's strength feats are also considerably better than Malgus's own.

If I may ask, what is so special about Satele's feat destroying a door? The feat I believe can be easily replicated by Dooku...the door wasn't even that big:

On biological edges, he's a Muun. Muuns aren't noted for exceptional ability, and are skinnier than humans. It wouldn't surprise me if, while probably lighter weight than humans, humans normally had the muscle edge.

Muun's do have three hearts, two of which can be consciously controlled. They are taller and thus hold an edge in leverage, and Plagueis's physical feats still outstrip Satele's.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Muun's do have three hearts, two of which can be consciously controlled. They are taller and thus hold an edge in leverage, and Plagueis's physical feats still outstrip Satele's.

Taller, so leverage, but in return a larger target, and still spindlier.

His species isn't an advantage, is my point.

the heart thing is a major advantage though, especially the way Plagueis exploits such an advantage.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Okay, seriously cut the crap. I own *Blood of the Empire*, their entire battle hardly destroyed the room they were in, and the destruction of the colony was because Exal destabilized the core by damaging a Verbobrain Cluster, which isn't nearly as impressive as you make it out to be..

The first phase of the duel between Teneb Kel (Thanaton) and Exal Kressh resulted in great damage to the chamber where it took place, very violent. Now the chamber design is such that I am not sure if it would make sense to collapse it in the manner you deem fit or Kressh would have attempted such a thing in her presence. However, Kressh literally bombarded the chamber with her powers which forced Thanaton to flee from the place and jump on a train.

As far as damaging the core is concerned, it makes sense. To pull apart a gigantic space station the size of a mega-city, it would be logical to focus on its vulnerable points. Otherwise, it is too tedious of a task.

The core of such an enormous space station is also expected to be gigantic, protected and linked to various parts of it in a span of miles with various pipes and such. This picture does not captures the enormity of the situation, Exal Kressh destabilized and destroyed the entire core (an entire system) which resulted in the destruction of the gigantic space station itself. This is certainly an incredible display of power since the main core will not be unprotected either.

Keep in mind that the comic shows you pictures of events, it doesn't shows you every bit of the events. My original statement is absolutely correct.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But you also can't base an entire argument on sheer speculation and then persist that we are the insanely biased ones.

Count Dooku lifted some obelisks with his TK powers once. Lets assume that Dooku is character (X) and his obelisk(s) lifting feat is action (Y).

Now since character (X) performed action (Y), should we assume that character (X) is superior to Sith Emperor? We haven't seen Sith Emperor performing this kind of feat but do you think he cannot?

This is the point that I am trying to make.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
She didn't disintegrate anything. Disintegration is the act of reducing an object to sizes of a molecular level. The impact of her wave shattered the cliff side and collapsed it, which is impressive, but it's also far cry from reducing it to dust.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disintegrate

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disintegrate

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/disintegration

You think that I don't know a meaning of a word? Don't ever try to mistakenly assume that I lack in education aspect. Educate yourself instead.

This is an example of disintegration:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not to mention that these defenseless humans were heavily armored with materials much harder than stone.

The power to "all but atomize" normal humans may require lot of HEAT rather then RAW POWER.

Plagueis likely unleashed extremely heated waves of energies that 'all but atomized' some assassins. This feat seems to be very different from Satele's feat of disintegrating a cliff in technical context but similar to what Satele did to some droids (exploded some droids in to fireballs from within).

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance

The Grand Master possessed prodigious Force powers. A gesture crushed hexes into balls or blew them apart from the inside.

Read this: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/but-not-simpler/2013/09/12/excerpts-from-the-mad-scientists-handbook-so-youre-ready-to-vaporize-a-human/

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't understand the second half of your question, but if you're implying the lightsaber did not have a large effect--Think again.

The energy of a single blaster bolt, when converted to Force Lightning, was great enough to turn a trooper's bones to dust. Imagine how much energy can be absorbed from a constantly-sustained energy blade.

Hell, I'll do it for you.

Look at Neeja Halycon. He who had absolutely no power of his own to perform Telekinetic feats was able to replicate Satele's feat almost exactly after absorbing the lightsaber blade of his adversary.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's not an incredibly amazing speed feat for Satele, you realize. Plagueis outrunning blaster bolts is definitely superior.

And if somebody is unbelievably fast to another Force-user, I don't see what gets much better then this.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if you want to say it isn't, the fact that Plagueis is on Palpatine's own speed tier should be enough regardless. Palpatine was so fast that three celebrated swordsmen amongst the Jedi Council's best couldn't even perceive his movements.

By comparison, Plagueis has a wealth of speed feats that all outstrip Satele's singular accolade. Your saying that Satele is in Plagueis's speed class is the assumption here.

Did you forget that she physically dodged a lightsaber blow from Malgus when cornered? Maybe it is not easy to depict the speed of this action in animated form while the animation have been made for the audience to digest and understand.

Those celebrated swordsmen hold no candle to Satele either.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
This is true, her own strength is nothing to scoff at--However, Plagueis's strength feats are also considerably better than Malgus's own.

Malgus is an absolute brute in both physical and power respects. He could crack marble with a single blow, lift and crush other Force-users to death with bare hands and more.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have this comic as well and I have keen observation.

As far as damaging the core is concerned, it makes sense. To pull apart a gigantic space station the size of a mega-city, it would be logical to focus on its vulnerable points. Otherwise, it is too tedious of a task.

Yes, it is. I'm simply pointing out that you attempted to make it sound as if she simply wrecked the entire colony with her powers, which is factually not true.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Analogy:-

Count Dooku lifted some obelisks with his TK powers once. Lets assume that Dooku is character (X) and his obelisk(s) lifting feat is action (Y).

Now since character (X) performed action (Y), should we assume that character (X) is superior to Sith Emperor? We haven't seen Sith Emperor performing this kind of feat but do you think he cannot?

This is the point that I am trying to make.

If Vitiate didn't have telekinetic feats good enough to compete, then that definitely would be true. However, we've seen him blow apart an astromech droid into millions of pieces, which definitely displays power to be reckoned with.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You think that I don't know a meaning of a word? Don't ever try to mistakenly assume that I lack in education aspect. Educate yourself instead.

Being a snob will not help your argument.

But yes, in strict definition of the word, *disintegration* you would be correct. However, in the context of this debate you know that what we're referring to in Plagueis's case is the sheer atomization of armored Maladians. He blasted them into pieces of molecular size, which actually more closely resembles Vitiate's feat against Revan's astromech droid than Satele crushing that cliff-side.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD The rocky formation which Satele Shan destroyed would have weighed hundreds of tons. Disintegrating such a thing is even more impressive then collapsing a small building.

Yes, it is definitely more impressive than that. I still do not see it as superior to practically blasting people into dust with the impact of a Force Wave, though, especially when Satele's power was greatly amplified from the energies of a lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Interesting...

It is, actually. To be entirely honest Satele's feat is one of the best feats of absorption in the mythos, really.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You do realize that Force-users can anticipate incoming blaster bolts in advance and then react to them (counter them with their lightsaber)?

Perhaps I should be more specific with this description: 11-4D is a droid who's sensors work at magnificent speeds, allowing it to perceive and evade blaster bolts in combat. It couldn't even pick up Plagueis's speed as anything more than a blur, much less react to it.

11-4D's receptors were faster than many Jedi's precognition, and the fact that it couldn't even see Plagueis is an astounding feat of speed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD Those celebrated swordsmen hold no candle to Satele either.

In terms of power and mastery of the Force? You are definitely right. In terms of sheer ability as swordsmen and level of speed? I'd be inclined to strongly disagree.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD You serious?

Malgus is an absolute brute in both physical and power respects. He could crack marble with a single blow, lift and crush other Force-users to death with bare hands and more.

So is Plagueis. I am well aware that Malgus has cracked marble tables, and squeezed people to death--Not to mention kicking Zallow 15 meters--His strength is insane.

However, Plagueis is just as insane. His punches have punched clean through *armored* torsos, he's simultaneously sent an entire group of Maladians flying and slamming into walls with lethal force, etc. etc.

I really don't see Satele winning this, really.

You think that I don't know a meaning of a word? Don't ever try to mistakenly assume that I lack in education aspect. Educate yourself instead.

However, Plagueis is just as insane. His punches have punched clean through *armored* torsos, he's simultaneously sent an entire group of Maladians flying and slamming into walls with lethal force, etc. etc.

facepalm

Some of the stretching in this this thread.

Christ.

The rocky formation which Satele Shan destroyed would have weighed hundreds of tons. Disintegrating such a thing is even more impressive then collapsing a small building.

In total, I discovered the blast was about 12 feet tall, 13 feet wide, and destroyed 6 feet worth of rocks. The total volume would be 936 feet of probably Metamorphic rock.

Also, just want to add this (since it won't let me edit the post above)

The mountain itself looks granite (ex of granite mountain):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Yosemite_20_bg_090404.jpg/800px-Yosemite_20_bg_090404.jpg

Granite weighs about 13 pounds (average) but can go up to 30 pounds per square foot. So the weight of what was destroyed should be about 12,000 pounds (average) to 28,000 pounds (maximum) or around 6 tons (average) to 14 tons (maximum), correct?

I'm not finding my math to reach up to LeGenD's expectations of hundreds of tons (which I think he was using as an hyperbole, if not perhaps he can "educate" himself more.), but 6 to 14 tons of destruction sounds very reasonable and impressive to me, and I guarantee if the rock was thicker, her blast would still cut through for numerous more meters, perhaps resulting in LeGenD's "hundreds of tons" claim, however the mountain itself was not that thick.