Originally posted by Sacred 117
I know DC isn't the only thing that matters, and I'm not trying to say that it is. The only thing I'm disputing is the idea that anyone believes that anything in Naruto-verse can be held to an absolute. That's why the 'NLF' clause was implemented in the first place, and to ignore it to suit one's case is just ludicrous.I could care less about the outcome of this thread for reasons I've previously stated, but I'll deal with you. I give you your desired answer, specifically having to do with whether or not I believe Goku can kill Kaguya (unrelated to his odds of victory or defeat), and I'll leave you alone... Depending on your answer to the following: We agree that everything has limits, yes? (A simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.)
yes unless proven otherwise by feats and example given within the manga that supports the claim. kaguya and the sages's immortality has been proven and showcased
Originally posted by chasedown
yes unless proven otherwise by feats and example given within the manga that supports the claim. kaguya and the sages's immortality has been proven and showcased
Alright. Now, I'll fulfill my end. I'll start with the fact that, yes, she is, for all intents and purposes, immortal... as far as her universe is concerned. Relative to all of the little people under her, she would seem to be infinitely durable, seeing as none of them have ever killed her. She simply happens to be the biggest, scariest, most powerful thing in her own setting, but what happens when you place her in a hypothetical situation in which she faces someone or something more far more powerful than anything her series has produced? To answer this question, you have to delve outside of the exact logic of the series rather than restricting yourself to it. Of course, still keep it in mind, but also keep in mind that those in question, by default, are not beholden to the exact same rule set. Otherwise, you can't draw a sensible conclusion, and the entire meaning is lost.
With that in mind, one would first have to first determine if there are any core similarities or differences between them on any vital points of contingency. In this case, sealing techniques. Goku obviously isn't from the same series, so he's unlikely to know whatever oddly specific process any of the Naruto cast has used to put Kaguya away. So, because of that, are we to assume other universes will treat her the same way her own does? No, because this wasn't considered when she was written, so there's no reason for it to be observed that way here. Otherwise, what's the damn point?
So, what's left? Simple. You observe the character's current known limits, even in cases where similar methodology is used. Kaguya seems to be treated (again, by her own series) as one without clear threshold, but she still has demonstrable peaks she hasn't surpassed. In regards to her durability versus Goku's power, I would have to ask if she's ever withstood what Goku (or, better yet, anyone above him) can exert, and if she hasn't, then I have to honest reason to believe that she can.
Like I said, everything has limits, and in situations like this, they will be observed as limited based on their best showings. Because other corners of fiction are not obligated to look at each other in the same way since none of them actually work the same way. If Kaguya got punched in the face by Superman, she'd likely f**king die. If she got hit with Thor's hammer, she'd likely f**king die. Given the historically insurmountable gap between Naruto and DBZ, I can say the same of Goku. If he blasted the f**k out of her and everything around her, she'd likely f**king die.
In short, yes. I do, in fact, believe that, logically, Goku could kill Kaguya. Whatever happens after that (resurrection via regen, reincarnation, some brand of cross-dimensional f**kery, whatever) is beside the point. I can't stress this enough, but Goku's NOT bound to the ideas or precepts of a series he doesn't belong to.
You have my answer. I hope you're satisfied. I'll leave you be now (as I promised). 🙂
Originally posted by Sacred 117
Alright. Now, I'll fulfill my end. I'll start with the fact that, yes, she is, for all intents and purposes, immortal... as far as her universe is concerned. Relative to all of the little people under her, she would seem to be infinitely durable, seeing as none of them have ever killed her. She simply happens to be the biggest, scariest, most powerful thing [b]in her own setting, but what happens when you place her in a hypothetical situation in which she faces someone or something more far more powerful than anything her series has produced? To answer this question, you have to delve outside of the exact logic of the series rather than restricting yourself to it. Of course, still keep it in mind, but also keep in mind that those in question, by default, are not beholden to the exact same rule set. Otherwise, you can't draw a sensible conclusion, and the entire meaning is lost.With that in mind, one would first have to first determine if there are any core similarities or differences between them on any vital points of contingency. In this case, sealing techniques. Goku obviously isn't from the same series, so he's unlikely to know whatever oddly specific process any of the Naruto cast has used to put Kaguya away. So, because of that, are we to assume other universes will treat her the same way her own does? No, because this wasn't considered when she was written, so there's no reason for it to be observed that way here. Otherwise, what's the damn point?
So, what's left? Simple. You observe the character's current known limits, even in cases where similar methodology is used. Kaguya seems to be treated (again, by her own series) as one without clear threshold, but she still has demonstrable peaks she hasn't surpassed. In regards to her durability versus Goku's power, I would have to ask if she's ever withstood what Goku (or, better yet, anyone above him) can exert, and if she hasn't, then I have to honest reason to believe that she can.
Like I said, everything has limits, and in situations like this, they will be observed as limited based on their best showings. Because other corners of fiction are not obligated to look at each other in the same way since none of them actually work the same way. If Kaguya got punched in the face by Superman, she'd likely f**king die. If she got hit with Thor's hammer, she'd likely f**king die. Given the historically insurmountable gap between Naruto and DBZ, I can say the same of Goku. If he blasted the f**k out of her and everything around her, she'd likely f**king die.
In short, yes. I do, in fact, believe that, logically, Goku could kill Kaguya. Whatever happens after that (resurrection via regen, reincarnation, some brand of cross-dimensional f**kery, whatever) is beside the point. I can't stress this enough, but Goku's NOT bound to the ideas or precepts of a series he doesn't belong to.
You have my answer. I hope you're satisfied. I'll leave you be now (as I promised). 🙂 [/B]
Immortality is a feat and part of the character and something characters from almost all series have a possibility of achieving its just that some characters never achieve that status.
Immortality is not something that is only bound to the naruto series lol again in dbz they couldnt kill garlic jr. Why? Because he was immortal.
In fact immortality was a very huge concept in the saiyan saga it was vegetas main motivation to come to earth because he wanted to achieve immortality same for frieza on namek.
Lol your fanboyism is blinding you if you think goku can kill an immortal through sheer force alone even though he failed to killed to kill one in his own verse and stopped at nothing to stop others from achieving that status.
Your logic makes no sense if thatd the case then the whole hst can blitz goku because they too are not bound by the logic of dbz because to the ssj1,2,3 and 4 mean nothing
Originally posted by yungz22
Immortality is a feat and part of the character and something characters from almost all series have a possibility of achieving its just that some characters never achieve that status.Immortality is not something that is only bound to the naruto series lol again in dbz they couldnt kill garlic jr. Why? Because he was immortal.
In fact immortality was a very huge concept in the saiyan saga it was vegetas main motivation to come to earth because he wanted to achieve immortality same for frieza on namek.
Lol your fanboyism is blinding you if you think goku can kill an immortal through sheer force alone even though he failed to killed to kill one in his own verse and stopped at nothing to stop others from achieving that status.
Your logic makes no sense if thatd the case then the whole hst can blitz goku because they too are not bound by the logic of dbz because to the ssj1,2,3 and 4 mean nothing
As far as said verse is concerned (which doesn't include Goku), yeah. Seriously, I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Naruto is NOT an absolute standard to which all of fiction can be held to.
He also proved to be too tough for them. Let me know when Kaguya takes DBZ level hits. 👆
So?
Try not accusing me of "fanboyism" if you think Kaguya, despite never proving such, can survive High Herald level destructive force. (Go ahead. I dare you to say Superman can't kill Kaguya. Destroy your credibility on the subject matter a little more. 👆 )
No, because SSJ forms would only affect Goku, so they still apply.
Originally posted by Sacred 117
As far as said verse is concerned (which doesn't include Goku), yeah. Seriously, I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Naruto is NOT an absolute standard to which all of fiction can be held to.He also proved to be too tough for them. Let me know when Kaguya takes DBZ level hits. 👆
So?
Try not accusing me of "fanboyism" if you think Kaguya, despite never proving such, can survive High Herald level destructive force. (Go ahead. I dare you to say Superman can't kill Kaguya. Destroy your credibility on the subject matter a little more. 👆 )
No, because SSJ forms would only affect Goku, so they still apply.
Kaguya could just teleport the blast to another dimesion anyway.
No one is saying naruto is an absolute standard immortality is the same for every single verse its a feat that a character may or may not achieve.
Dude immortality is the same for every verse unless the limits are shown for example aizen's hogyoku was overloaded which put him in a depowerd state.... He was still alive and well tho and still about to kill ichigo if it wasnt for urahara
sealing him.
Why do you think vegeta wanted immortality. He thought that he could use his immortality to beat frieza since an immortal cant be killed. Lol thats what it means.
Immortals in every single verse you see them cannot be killed and are usually sealed instead
Originally posted by yungz22
Kaguya could just teleport the blast to another dimesion anyway.No one is saying naruto is an absolute standard immortality is the same for every single verse its a feat that a character may or may not achieve.
Dude immortality is the same for every verse unless the limits are shown for example aizen's hogyoku was overloaded which put him in a depowerd state.... He was still alive and well tho and still about to kill ichigo if it wasnt for urahara
sealing him.Why do you think vegeta wanted immortality. He thought that he could use his immortality to beat frieza since an immortal cant be killed. Lol thats what it means.
Immortals in every single verse you see them cannot be killed and are usually sealed instead
So now you're back to "immortality is the same for everyone everywhere" when you admitted yourself earlier that there were differences in them? (Example: Kaguya doesn't have the same type as TOAA.) It's not an accomplishment to higher verses that could care less. I hate that I have to remind you how debates work, but since you still don't seem to get it...
"12. Certain characters are known to be omnipotent or invulnerable canonically. Examples of such are Pyron, whose actual limitations are not known, Pyramid Head, who is essentially an incorporeal manifestation of psychological issues, and Ganon, who cannot be defeated without the Master Sword and/or Light Arrows.
We will allow these characters only if the first post specifies that they have lost that unbeatable element, enough so that the opponent(s) have, at the very least, a chance of winning."
See my point yet? It's "proven" (by your choice standard) that Ganondorf has only be defeated by a lore method, but if it were 'Odin vs. Ganondorf', I can't claim that Odin can't do anything simply because he don't have the Master Sword. Common sense has to come into play at some point, and having an inflated opinion of shounen history's worst villain doesn't exempt you from that. 👆
Vegeta's plan was fundamentally flawed anyways. Say he achieved immortality, what's to stop Frieza from dismembering him and keeping his head and torso as a bust?
Originally posted by Sacred 117
So now you're back to "immortality is the same for everyone everywhere" when you admitted yourself earlier that there were differences in them? (Example: Kaguya doesn't have the same type as TOAA.) It's not an accomplishment to higher verses that could care less. I hate that I have to remind you how debates work, but since you still don't seem to get it..."12. Certain characters are known to be omnipotent or invulnerable canonically. Examples of such are Pyron, whose actual limitations are not known, Pyramid Head, who is essentially an incorporeal manifestation of psychological issues, and Ganon, who cannot be defeated without the Master Sword and/or Light Arrows.
We will allow these characters only if the first post specifies that they have lost that unbeatable element, enough so that the opponent(s) have, at the very least, a chance of winning."
See my point yet? It's "proven" (by your choice standard) that Ganondorf has only be defeated by a lore method, but if it were 'Odin vs. Ganondorf', I can't claim that Odin can't do anything simply because he don't have the Master Sword. Common sense has to come into play at some point, and having an inflated opinion of shounen history's worst villain doesn't exempt you from that. 👆
Vegeta's plan was fundamentally flawed anyways. Say he achieved immortality, what's to stop Frieza from dismembering him and keeping his head and torso as a bust?
i literally just said unless limits were shown in the verse as clear as day in my previous post smh
im pretty sure odin has sealed powerful opponents away before.
Originally posted by yungz22
i literally just said unless limits were shown in the verse as clear as day in my previous post smhim pretty sure odin has sealed powerful opponents away before.
Their limits were shown, which doesn't directly translate to anyone else. I get what you're trying to say, but essentially, what you're actually saying (or rather implying) is "No one in Naruto has ever killed Kaguya, so no one from any other corner of fiction, no matter how much more powerful they happen to be, can kill her either."
I'm not sure as to the full extent of his capabilities, but if sealing were in his MO, he should have probably done it to Thanos instead of fist fighting him. Either way, you've missed the point entirely (which I'm guessing wasn't by accident).
So now it's come to "if it's stated in the manga it's not a no limit fallacy"?
People bringing up Garlic Jr? He's not even a canon character
So could an Edo tank a galaxy buster because they don't have sealing techniques? Actually **** that, they'd prolly say yes
Cue to not take the HST side seriously? I think so
Originally posted by StealthRanger
So now it's come to "if it's stated in the manga it's not a no limit fallacy"?People bringing up Garlic Jr? He's not even a canon character
So could an Edo tank a galaxy buster because they don't have sealing techniques? Actually **** that, they'd prolly say yes
Cue to not take the HST side seriously? I think so
edo tensei have survived atomic dismantling a ki blast even if it was a galaxy buster isnt going to get rid of them. I dont know if you read the manga or not but edo tensei were specifically said to be souls brought from the afterlife that are now bound to the plane of the living. thats how the jutsu works its not a no limits fallacy.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
When has an edo tensei survived complete atomic dismantling? Never, iirc.Either way though, a ki blast with galaxy busting proportions concentrated into a baseball is going to destroy the very base matter that makes the edo tensei's up, which will DEFINITELY mean they're not coming back. 👆
Did you not see madara get hit with genkai hakuri
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
When has an edo tensei survived complete atomic dismantling? Never, iirc.
It never has. I made this point about the ET bodies in Naruto.
Originally posted by yungz22
Did you not see madara get hit with genkai hakuri
I don't remember him getting directly hit by it...I thought it was partial?
Originally posted by dadudemon
It never has. I made this point about the ET bodies in Naruto.I don't remember him getting directly hit by it...I thought it was partial?
Half of his body got hit but since his soul is bound to the living plane his paper-like body reformed.
Remember the edo bodys are jus hollow shells for the soul to reside in
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Originally posted by SSJGGogetai think goku will win here
Then why did Goku specifically criticize him for "letting yourself be controlled by Babidi"? Exactly. It's actually changing his personality and mindset, not just controlling it. Something no one in all of Naruto can do. Yet Vegeta could still resist it completely.Then why did Sasuke need to go CS2 to break out of it? If he didn't need to be stronger, then why did he need to become stronger? lol
In reality, but not to the person using it or the person being affected by it. Meaning Goku can easily shit out of it whenever he feels like it.
No one that doesn't have ki sense. Genjutsu controls the targets chakra flow and in doing so, their five sense. Goku has not only way too much ki for anyone to control a fraction of(from Naruto), but also a sixth sense, that genjutsu can't demonstrably affect. Izanami can be broken out of by doing something different, or by accepting yourself. Goku has never had a problem doing either of those things without explanations.
Not to mention that even if it took him a minute to break Izanami, he would be tanking everything casually while standing there, considering him as SSJ3 in the Buu saga throws around and tanks universe/reality busting attacks like he doesn't feel them.