Goku vs whole HST

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

This was the first of many times Goku fought a ghost.

Uhh, no, Goku was clearly dead.

Same with Vegeta. 👆

They were simply sent back to Earth as spirits.

Goku sensed the energy of a ghost, and what are soul reapers? Ghosts, meaning that Goku can sense what? Reiatsu. 👆

Ki can only come from living bodies

They were allowed to come back to earth with their original bodies... They werent ghosts at that point. The halo's are there to represent that their time with those bodies on earth were limited. Notice when goku went ssj in his living body the time he could spend greatly decreased.The halos were there link to both the living and spirit world. There bodies were more like the bodies from avatar at that point. For a short time they were allowed to possess them for lack of a better word

Originally posted by chasedown
Ki can only come from living bodies

They were allowed to come back to earth with their original bodies... They werent ghosts at that point. The halo's are there to represent that their time with those bodies on earth were limited. Notice when goku went ssj in his living body the time he could spend greatly decreased.The halos were there link to both the living and spirit world. There bodies were more like the bodies from avatar at that point. For a short time they were allowed to possess them for lack of a better word

THEN WHY COULD GOKU SENSE VEGETA'S, WHEN HE WAS CLEARLY DEAD?

No, it even elaborates in Fusion reborn. Their bodies are gone when someone dies, but they can achieve a metaphysical form in the living world because they use ki. You can't deny the scans, so I accept your concession.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
THEN WHY COULD GOKU SENSE VEGETA'S, WHEN HE WAS CLEARLY DEAD?

No, it even elaborates in Fusion reborn. Their bodies are gone when someone dies, but they can achieve a metaphysical form in the living world because they use ki. You can't deny the scans, so I accept your concession.

Im not denying scans im just telling you that those were physical bodies that were on earth not ghosts. Ki comes from living bodies.
The only real ghosts are those little cloud thing that you see in the dbz spirit world

If you remember king yamma chooses who can and who cant keep there living bodies in the after life. For example goku was allowed to keep his living body after radditz killed him he then learned the spirit bomb which relies on life force of the individual and others around him in order for it to be created.

Also another example is the ssj3 transformation. Goku first transformed into ssj3 in the spirit world after king yamma once again allowed him to keep his body so that he could continue to train.

Fusion reborn is non canon that cant be used because toriyama never wrote that..... Janemba is awesome though

Originally posted by chasedown
Im not denying scans im just telling you that those were physical bodies that were on earth not ghosts. Ki comes from living bodies.
The only real ghosts are those little cloud thing that you see in the dbz spirit world

If you remember king yamma chooses who can and who cant keep there living bodies in the after life. For example goku was allowed to keep his living body after radditz killed him he then learned the spirit bomb which relies on life force of the individual and others around him in order for it to be created.

Also another example is the ssj3 transformation. Goku first transformed into ssj3 in the spirit world after king yamma once again allowed him to keep his body so that he could continue to train.

Fusion reborn is non canon that cant be used because toriyama never wrote that..... Janemba is awesome though

Yes you are denying scans, because the fact remains that they were still ghosts. You know what else comes from living bodies? Reiatsu. Those are spirits of normal people, not warriors that got to keep their physical bodies manifested into metaphysical form.

No, he doesn't. He chooses if someone goes to hell or heaven. Only a god or kai can switch someone's body from physical to metaphysical. Goku kept his body after radditz because Kami converted it into a ghost body.

Here's the scan. Goku's body vanishes, and Kami later tells him that he converted his body into a spirit body. What does that sound like? A ghost.

What does that have to do with anything? If anything, SSJ3 proves ME right, and you wrong. Goku could only stay in SSJ3 for extended periods when he was dead. He explained that his living body put too much stress on him while he was a SSJ3, to the point where he needed a full minute to charge, and couldn't stay SSJ3 because his body couldn't handle the constant MASSIVE energy output.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yes you are denying scans, because the fact remains that they were still ghosts. You know what else comes from living bodies? Reiatsu. Those are spirits of normal people, not warriors that got to keep their physical bodies manifested into metaphysical form.

No, he doesn't. He chooses if someone goes to hell or heaven. Only a god or kai can switch someone's body from physical to metaphysical. Goku kept his body after radditz because Kami converted it into a ghost body.

Here's the scan. Goku's body vanishes, and Kami later tells him that he converted his body into a spirit body. What does that sound like? A ghost.

What does that have to do with anything? If anything, SSJ3 proves ME right, and you wrong. Goku could only stay in SSJ3 for extended periods when he was dead. He explained that his living body put too much stress on him while he was a SSJ3, to the point where he needed a full minute to charge, and couldn't stay SSJ3 because his body couldn't handle the constant MASSIVE energy output.

as well as choosing if someone goes to heaven or hell he chooses who gets to keep their body in the after life and who doesnt. remember piccolo telling vegeta before he killed himself against buu that since vegeta had commited alot of sins he wont be allowed to keep his body in he after life and remember when vegeta comes back he states that yami let him get his body back so that he could help goku fight buuhan

i ever said the living didnt have reatsu i said it is different than ki in the sense that it crushes souls. and can even make somebody disintegrate into thin air.

ki is different because only living bodies can manifest it. Aizen doesnt have ki. ki is more similar to chakra. albeit ki has the highest destructive power of the three.

wheres the scan saying kami said it was a spirit body because the only spirit bodies ive seen are those little clouds that you see in the dbz afterlife?

Originally posted by chasedown
as well as choosing if someone goes to heaven or hell he chooses who gets to keep their body in the after life and who doesnt. remember piccolo telling vegeta before he killed himself against buu that since vegeta had commited alot of sins he wont be allowed to keep his body in he after life and remember when vegeta comes back he states that yami let him get his body back so that he could help goku fight buuhan

Nope, that's not true.

No, I don't remember that because it didn't happen. Liar.

Here's the scan.

Goku says they let Vegeta come back. In case you didn't know, Baba was the one that lets people's spirits come back to Earth. Again, you are wrong.

Originally posted by chasedown
i ever said the living didnt have reatsu i said it is different than ki in the sense that it crushes souls. and can even make somebody disintegrate into thin air.

Look what Frieza can do with just his mere energy. Crushing an enormous island with your energy >>> Crushing a normal human with your energy. 👆

Originally posted by chasedown
ki is different because only living bodies can manifest it. Aizen doesnt have ki. ki is more similar to chakra. albeit ki has the highest destructive power of the three.

So a dead body is a living body? A star is a living body? Oxygen is a living body? Let me ask this. If ki only comes from living bodies, then why could people in HFIL, people in Heaven, and even celestial bodies such as stars, give their ki to a spirit bomb? Again, everything has ki, and rule of equivalence in debates proves that because of their massive similarities, ki is equivalent to reiatsu. Either prove a difference with scans, or drop it.

Originally posted by chasedown
wheres the scan saying kami said it was a spirit body because the only spirit bodies ive seen are those little clouds that you see in the dbz afterlife?

Here Kami is SPECIFICALLY saying that there is no difference from Goku and a random, dead alien. King Yemma even says he could go straight to Heaven if he wanted. You're aware that, in DBZ, only souls can go to Heaven, right? Even the Kai's can't go to "the upper world", as they call it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Nope, that's not true.

No, I don't remember that because it didn't happen. Liar.

Here's the scan.

Goku says they let Vegeta come back. In case you didn't know, Baba was the one that lets people's spirits come back to Earth. Again, you are [B]wrong.

Look what Frieza can do with just his mere energy. Crushing an enormous island with your energy >>> Crushing a normal human with your energy. 👆

So a dead body is a living body? A star is a living body? Oxygen is a living body? Let me ask this. If ki only comes from living bodies, then why could people in HFIL, people in Heaven, and even celestial bodies such as stars, give their ki to a spirit bomb? Again, everything has ki, and rule of equivalence in debates proves that because of their massive similarities, ki is equivalent to reiatsu. Either prove a difference with scans, or drop it.

Here Kami is SPECIFICALLY saying that there is no difference from Goku and a random, dead alien. King Yemma even says he could go straight to Heaven if he wanted. You're aware that, in DBZ, only souls can go to Heaven, right? Even the Kai's can't go to "the upper world", as they call it. [/B]

Dude it says it right in the scan you just posted that enma allowed him to come back.

Also piccolo did say that vegeta would lose his body in the afterlife because he commited to many evil sins. This happend right before he sacrificed himself against fat buu.

http://youtu.be/RrIxCC_Z720 8:20 Canon material

The scan you shown with kami teleporting his physical body to the spirit world is proof of that his body was preserved and allowed to be in the spirit world

Ki has never killed anybody through by mere presence its different than reatsu once again. Goku nor anybody in the dbz verse has killed anybody simply by being around them or even by charging up

There is a distinct differentiation between goku and the other little flaoting cloud spirits that are in heaven in the dbz verse

Anyway back to the fight one on one goku would basically beat everybody in the HST but together they could prove a problem for him unless he starts the fight by blowing them up.

There are several characters within the hst that are way smarter than goku is (urahara ,aizen szayel apporo mayuru basically damn near every one in bleach, the hokage, the uchiha, all jonin level ninja and up in naruto shika family included and a plethora of one piece characters)... Working together while combining there techniques they could beat him... Matbe not kill him but beat him. There would be casualties in the hst but together they could win.

Sheer power isnt everything.... Of course this is all to say goku doesnt just blow the planet up from the start. Which we know isnt In his nature

Originally posted by chasedown
Dude it says it right in the scan you just posted that enma allowed him to come back.

Also piccolo did say that vegeta would lose his body in the afterlife because he commited to many evil sins. This happend right before he sacrificed himself against fat buu.

http://youtu.be/RrIxCC_Z720 8:20 Canon material

The scan you shown with kami teleporting his physical body to the spirit world is proof of that his body was preserved and allowed to be in the spirit world

Ki has never killed anybody through by mere presence its different than reatsu once again. Goku nor anybody in the dbz verse has killed anybody simply by being around them or even by charging up

There is a distinct differentiation between goku and the other little flaoting cloud spirits that are in heaven in the dbz verse

mmm No it doesn't. It says that Yemma was worried if Vegeta was allowed back. Again, Baba is the one that resurrects souls. Why do you think she took Vegeta to Earth, and not Yemma?

Dub error. In the actual scan, Piccolo said Vegeta would have his soul cleansed and gain a new existence.

Again, ki destroying a huge island by mere presence>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>vaporizing a normal human by mere presence. 👆

It doesn't matter if they've never killed anyone by it, they've destroyed islands and nearly entire realities and universes from their presence ALONE.

There IS a difference. The Janemba movie proves it. Every one of those little spirits has a body when on Earth, but you can only keep your body in the afterlife if you've earned it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
mmm No it doesn't. It says that Yemma was worried if Vegeta was allowed back. Again, Baba is the one that resurrects souls. Why do you think she took Vegeta to Earth, and not Yemma?

Dub error. In the actual scan, Piccolo said Vegeta would have his soul cleansed and gain a new existence.

Again, ki destroying a huge island by mere presence>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>vaporizing a normal human by mere presence. 👆

It doesn't matter if they've never killed anyone by it, they've destroyed islands and nearly entire realities and universes from their presence ALONE.

There IS a difference. The Janemba movie proves it. Every one of those little spirits has a body when on Earth, but you can only keep your body in the afterlife if you've earned it.

That proves my point if it doesnt harm the soul of your opponent by mere presence its different than reatsu. Im not saying reatsu is stronger im saying the two have different sources of power. Ki by probably would destroy the environment by charging up.

But its never done the things reatsu does which is attack the souls of others. Another example would be stark his reatsu was so strong that any spirit who was around him would just die or cease to exist. Again not saying reatsu is stronger but the teo are definitely different

Ki literally means life energy

I think your missing what im saying. In dbz if you die and lived a rich life void of sin you are allowed to keep the body you had on earth in the afterlife. This is fact weve seen plenty of examples of it throughout the series. Goku's body and spirit wasnt separated.

When they come down to earth the halos are there to represent that their time in the living world is limited.

The only real and true straight spirits are those cloud souls we see.

Here are explanations of ki an reatsu

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Reiatsu
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ki

Curious as to what the ghost talk is in relation to.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Curious as to what the ghost talk is in relation to.

If goku break kyoka suigetsu by sensing aizen's reatsu.

Im trying to explain to him that ki an reatsu are not the same so goku wouldnt be able to just ki sense himself out of it

Originally posted by chasedown
If goku break kyoka suigetsu by sensing aizen's reatsu.

Im trying to explain to him that ki an reatsu are not the same so goku wouldnt be able to just ki sense himself out of it

But wouldn't the whole ki/reatsu thing be cover in equivalency rule. Even if it weren't Aizen still has no way of actually hurting Goku and if he decides to go in with a sword blow, Goku will know its him.

But really this all just goes back to mindset which is what was agreed on in the first page.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
But wouldn't the whole ki/reatsu thing be cover in equivalency rule. Even if it weren't Aizen still has no way of actually hurting Goku and if he decides to go in with a sword blow, Goku will know its him.

But really this all just goes back to mindset which is what was agreed on in the first page.

Im just saying hes fight the whole hst and each series has many characters way more intelligent than goku. Alone none of them can beat goku But they could work together in combination to create a strategy than would beat goku.

Shikamaru,shikaku, aizen, urahara , itachi, madara and the kage just to name a few characters from each verse to could just plane outsmart goku. And theres much more.

They cant physically hurt him but i dont see why they cant use other means to outsmart him,hurt him mentally or seal him. Goku is fighting all of these characters from every verse at once. Each verse with a number of unique and hax abilities

Killing isnt the only way to win a fight.

Unless goku blows them all up in the beginning of the fight i think the hst could make the battle interesting

Originally posted by chasedown
If goku break kyoka suigetsu by sensing aizen's reatsu.

Im trying to explain to him that ki an reatsu are not the same so goku wouldnt be able to just ki sense himself out of it

Though correct me if I'm wrong (here's looking at you Gogeta) but wasn't there an instance where someone in DBZ was easily affected by illusions or mental attacks? If not that then DB. Only got the vaguest memory of this working.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Energy equivalent rule, unless limited specifications are involved.

Though correct me if I'm wrong (here's looking at you Gogeta) but wasn't there an instance where someone in DBZ was easily affected by illusions or mental attacks? If not that then DB. Only got the vaguest memory of this working.

Still all in all you cant just sense your way out of kyoka suigetsu if that was the case everybody under it would be able to break its spell.

Imagine goku falling under a combo of shinji's sword, kyoka suigetsu, izanami, and tsukishima's book of the end. And theres more illusionary and mental users within the hst. Goku would be blastin away at rocks for hours.

These illusions could give the hst characters time to strategize and create a plan to seal him or evern less likely kill him.

Plus gremmy could use his imagination to bring back kid buu or someone formidable enough to fight goku while hes under said illusionary tactics

Base Goku is still a moon level threat. He wins.

Originally posted by chasedown
Still all in all you cant just sense your way out of kyoka suigetsu if that was the case everybody under it would be able to break its spell.

Imagine goku falling under a combo of shinji's sword, kyoka suigetsu, izanami, and tsukishima's book of the end. And theres more illusionary and mental users within the hst. Goku would be blastin away at rocks for hours.

These illusions could give the hst characters time to strategize and create a plan to seal him or evern less likely kill him.

Plus gremmy could use his imagination to bring back kid buu or someone formidable enough to fight goku while hes under said illusionary tactics

You're retarded. No one in bleach has a nonillionth of the ki sensing ability Goku has. DBZ characters can fight off of ki sense alone. See Frieza vs. Goku. You arguing that ki and reiatsu are different only helps my case. If they are, then Aizen can't control Goku at all because sword abilities don't work on reiatsu's higher than yours, i.e. people that don't have reiatsu as well, AND Goku can still see and kill Aizen because he can see ghosts. 👆

IF he couldn't EASILY break them with sheer strength like Aizen did(which he casually could during the Saiyan saga), then he could still blow up the planet, which would break the illusions by killing the casters, and teleport to king kai's planet or something.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, Gremmy had to double his power JUST to summon a SINGLE meteor, a casual Madara level feat. Suggesting that he could create a universal level entity to defeat his enemies, or even worse, CONTROL him, instantly proves you lose. Again.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're retarded. No one in bleach has a nonillionth of the ki sensing ability Goku has. DBZ characters can fight off of ki sense alone. See Frieza vs. Goku. You arguing that ki and reiatsu are different only helps my case. If they are, then Aizen can't control Goku at all because sword abilities don't work on reiatsu's higher than yours, i.e. people that don't have reiatsu as well, AND Goku can still see and kill Aizen because he can see ghosts. 👆

IF he couldn't EASILY break them with sheer strength like Aizen did(which he casually could during the Saiyan saga), then he could still blow up the planet, which would break the illusions by killing the casters, and teleport to king kai's planet or something.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, Gremmy had to double his power JUST to summon a SINGLE meteor, a casual Madara level feat. Suggesting that he could create a universal level entity to defeat his enemies, or even worse, CONTROL him, instantly proves you lose. Again.

We both know aizen is a master manipulator he loves to talk trapping goku in kyoka is childs play for him. All he has to do is say the swords name and goku is under it.Kyoka suigetsu doesnt need to take control of goku's energy it doesnt work like that it would take control of his senses. Goku wouldnt even know he was under it if or until aizen told him. Nobody has ever broken kyoka just by sensing where aizen is. Goku would be fighting things he think are there and they really arent. Goku would see hear and feel whatever aizen wanted him too. Plus remember like i said kyoka could be combined along with every other illusion/ mental attack oriented character. Goku would literally be confused and fighting illusions. Just izanami and kyoka are devestating by themselves imagine it in conjuntion with all the mental based techniques within the hst.

Gremmy was just an attempt to show that in fact they could distract him. Plus why cant gremmy multiply him self to a great enough number thats needed to create a being that could hurt goku. Matter of fact even things like the meteor could distract goku because he would try to destroy it because he would be afraid that innocents would get hurt.

We both know its fact that there are tons of characters within the hst smarter than goku. Working together they could use group think to devise a strategy to seal goku or trick him into doing something detrimental to himself. Aizen, mayuri,syzel apporo, urahara, itachi, sage madara shikaku and shikamaru, kakashi,hashirama and the other kage and other smart characters within the hst could come up with something.

Of course like ive been saying it all depends on goku's mind state. The goku we all know and love would never just blow up the planet or a whole country area as soon as a fight starts. If goku were bloodlusted the fight would be over before it even started.

They cant physically kill goku but they surpass goku in other aspects of fighting alone none of them could beat him but together they stand a fighters chance and It wouldnt be easy

The hst is full of an incredible amount of hax techniques