as a matter of fact here is a way goku would lose. while under kyoka suigetsu or any other genjutsu or psycho based attack yukio or gremmy could just trap him in another dimension.
remember this is base goku hed have no way of breaking out since he cant go to ssj3
and the HST WINS
or reaper death seal, totsuka blade, or any sealing technique from bleach.
hell urahara could even place those cuffs on goku and force goku's energy back on himself thus killing him.
Originally posted by chasedown
We both know aizen is a master manipulator he loves to talk trapping goku in kyoka is childs play for him. All he has to do is say the swords name and goku is under it.Kyoka suigetsu doesnt need to take control of goku's energy it doesnt work like that it would take control of his senses. Goku wouldnt even know he was under it if or until aizen told him. Nobody has ever broken kyoka just by sensing where aizen is. Goku would be fighting things he think are there and they really arent. Goku would see hear and feel whatever aizen wanted him too. Plus remember like i said kyoka could be combined along with every other illusion/ mental attack oriented character. Goku would literally be confused and fighting illusions. Just izanami and kyoka are devestating by themselves imagine it in conjuntion with all the mental based techniques within the hst.Gremmy was just an attempt to show that in fact they could distract him. Plus why cant gremmy multiply him self to a great enough number thats needed to create a being that could hurt goku. Matter of fact even things like the meteor could distract goku because he would try to destroy it because he would be afraid that innocents would get hurt.
We both know its fact that there are tons of characters within the hst smarter than goku. Working together they could use group think to devise a strategy to seal goku or trick him into doing something detrimental to himself. Aizen, mayuri,syzel apporo, urahara, itachi, sage madara shikaku and shikamaru, kakashi,hashirama and the other kage and other smart characters within the hst could come up with something.
Of course like ive been saying it all depends on goku's mind state. The goku we all know and love would never just blow up the planet or a whole country area as soon as a fight starts. If goku were bloodlusted the fight would be over before it even started.
They cant physically kill goku but they surpass goku in other aspects of fighting alone none of them could beat him but together they stand a fighters chance and It wouldnt be easy
1. What does that matter, when Goku can still sense through it casually? Aizen can control five senses, not six. No one in Bleach broke from it because they were all weaker than Aizen. Goku, who is so vastly stronger and faster along with ki sense, could easily grab the sword as Aizen was coming at him, before vaporizing them both with a thought. You're completely neglecting the fact that Goku HAS FOUGHT WITH HIS SOLE KI SENSE BEFORE, AND AGAINST PEOPLE THAT CAN PLANET AND SOLAR SYSTEM BUST.
Izanami wouldn't work on Goku, because he's never doubted himself and accepts who he is, and every other genjutsu, hypnosis, mind control, etc. of the HST can be grunted out of by sheer force. If their characters can do it, or come close to it, then Goku, who can produce universe busting energy levels, could break them all in base form during the Saiyan saga. It doesn't matter if they control his five senses, because again, THEY CANNOT CONTROL KI SENSE. See Babidi controlling Vegeta. He literally changed his personality and controlled his mind, but Vegeta could break it with sheer ki. That feat alone shits on everything the HST can throw at them combined.
2. Uh, because Gremmy was out of breath, winded and sweaty from making one clone and summoning a single meteor. He would die trying to summon Nappa, let alone someone like Kid Buu that throws around galaxy busters and breaks reality by yelling.
3. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. THEY DON'T HAVE PREP TIME HERE. WE CAN'T JUST ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THEY HAVE DEALT WITH THREATS STRONGER THAN THEM BEFORE, THAT THEY CAN DEAL WITH GOKU. Goku is on a COMPLETELY different level than them. The strongest of the HST are country busters. Goku is a LITERAL universe buster/reality buster. It doesn't matter how smart someone is, if the person they're up against is able to LITERALLY tank and destroy everything they throw at them, while blitzing three planets of characters all casually in his weakest form from an early version that's nowhere even comparable to his strongest universe busting form.
You LITERALLY might as well put Batman up against Galactus or The living Tribunal.
4. How could Gremmy's meteor distract Goku when he could vaporize it with a gesture?
5. Again, it doesn't matter. You're pretty much throwing a giant heap of feathers on someone that can smash mountains with his face. The amount of attacks you throw at him doesn't matter if he can simply tank attacks infinitely stronger than them without being even a bit worked. Goku has tanked attacks from people who can planet, solar system, galaxy, universe, multiverse/reality bust before. A hundred mountain busters will do less than nothing to him.
Originally posted by yungz22
as a matter of fact here is a way goku would lose. while under kyoka suigetsu or any other genjutsu or psycho based attack yukio or gremmy could just trap him in another dimension.remember this is base goku hed have no way of breaking out since he cant go to ssj3
and the HST WINSor reaper death seal, totsuka blade, or any sealing technique from bleach.
hell urahara could even place those cuffs on goku and force goku's energy back on himself thus killing him.
What? Gremmy trapped Kenpachi in a patch of outer space. Not another dimension, you idiot bleach wanker.
Any of those seals can be broken out of by simply overpowering them. Goku can casually do so all at once.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What? Gremmy trapped Kenpachi in a patch of outer space. Not another dimension, you idiot bleach wanker.Any of those seals can be broken out of by simply overpowering them. Goku can casually do so all at once.
fine then yukio seals him in another dimension fight over.
Originally posted by yungz22
fine then yukio seals him in another dimension fight over.
Yukio? Is that another character from Bleach?
If so, then you're talking about a giant black box. Ichigo casually broke out of it. Goku breaks out of it as a child.
Again, name-of-an-attack means nothing. Unless it was specified to be a literal other dimension, and no one who was weaker than Goku broke out of it, then your point is moot.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Yukio? Is that another character from Bleach?If so, then you're talking about a giant black box. Ichigo casually broke out of it. Goku breaks out of it as a child.
Again, name-of-an-attack means nothing. Unless it was specified to be a literal other dimension, and no one who was weaker than Goku broke out of it, then your point is moot.
They can trap him in the garganta. Along with yukio' dimension and galaxy room. He cant break out out the garganta nor can he break out of the dangai world
Originally posted by chasedown
They can trap him in the garganta. Along with yukio' dimension and galaxy room. He cant break out out the garganta nor can he break out of the dangai world
His energy feats vastly outweigh any of Ichigo's. Therefor, anything Ichigo can do with raw strength, Goku can do. SSJ3 level's can break through reality itself, to enter separate dimensions. Unless you're also saying that Gremmy can't break out of the Yukio dimension, or dangai/garganta.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
His energy feats vastly outweigh any of Ichigo's. Therefor, anything Ichigo can do with raw strength, Goku can do. SSJ3 level's can break through reality itself, to enter separate dimensions. Unless you're also saying that Gremmy can't break out of the Yukio dimension, or dangai/garganta.
This fight doesnt allow goku to super saiyan he will not be able to break out of demesions like the garganta/dangai or even the kamui world. Goku would lose the fight hed be stuck in there until he dies and the hst wins.
Gremmy and yukio will probably die but every battle has its casualties. There are just too many hax abilities and characters for base goku to fight at once.
Originally posted by chasedown
This fight doesnt allow goku to super saiyan he will not be able to break out of demesions like the garganta/dangai or even the kamui world. Goku would lose the fight hed be stuck in there until he dies and the hst wins.Gremmy and yukio will probably die but every battle has its casualties. There are just too many hax abilities and characters for base goku to fight at once.
Goku could still use Kaioken...but that hurts him as well.
The Yukio dimension isn't a very viable option though since apparently it only requires you to be stronger than Yukio to break out of it: you can check me on this one because I'm not sure.
However thanks to equivalency rule, Aizen's zanpakuto should work just fine on Goku.
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Goku could still use Kaioken...but that hurts him as well.The Yukio dimension isn't a very viable option though since apparently it only requires you to be stronger than Yukio to break out of it: you can check me on this one because I'm not sure.
However thanks to equivalency rule, Aizen's zanpakuto should work just fine on Goku.
Kaioken isnt breaking him out of the garganta/dangai or the kamui world. Hed be stuck in there for the rest of his natural life.
No your right he can break out of yukio's dimension it was just a name i heard someone else use. It lead me to start brainstorming how goku would lose.
Heres another scenario i thought of that could possibly work. Imagine goku falling under a combination between koto amatsukami and kyoka then shisui ordering him to fly into the sun. Matter or fact goku cant survive in space regardless
Or the hat using their illusion and mental attack techniques stunning goku long enough for torune to poison him with his body. Goku dies from illness
Or the illusions and mental attacks stunning him enough for kakashi and obito to decapitate him with kamui goku dies again.
My point is that theres ways for the hst to win it just takes deep though and strategy which im sure shikaku,shikamaru, madara, itachi ,obito , aizen, urahara and other can think up some great ones. Theres too many manipulators within the hst
This is all assuming goku doesnt blow up the earth at the beginning of the fight but that isnt in his character. We all know aizen is a talker it wouldnt be hard for him to get goku under kyoka
Originally posted by chasedown
This fight doesnt allow goku to super saiyan he will not be able to break out of demesions like the garganta/dangai or even the kamui world. Goku would lose the fight hed be stuck in there until he dies and the hst wins.Gremmy and yukio will probably die but every battle has its casualties. There are just too many hax abilities and characters for base goku to fight at once.
There you go, dodging my argument again. Prove that those dimensions are the same as in DBZ, you who argue that ki is so different from Chakra and Reiatsu. Energy equivalence rules. If Ichigo could break out of the dimension just by exerting energy, then anyone who can exert equal or more energy can do so as well. Goku happens to be capable of exerting universe and reality extinguishing levels of energy that dwarf Ichigo's so vastly that his energy is comparable in size to an atom when scaled to Goku's, which would be a solar system in comparison. You don't even fathom the difference in energy it takes to blow up a universe, and the energy it takes to blow up a town. Goku can break those casually. Could Ichigo break the ROSAT dimension though? PHUCK NO.
Again, drop this argument unless you're saying that Kenny, Gremmy, Yamamoto, Aizen, Juha Bach, etc. can't break those "dimensions", or come relatively close for that matter. Oh! Even better, show me a SINGLE feat of destructive or energy capacity even ON PAR with Saiyan saga Vegeta or Goku, and you'll prove that Goku can't break all these illusions, "dimensions", and attacks CASUALLY in base form.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
There you go, dodging my argument again. Prove that those dimensions are the same as in DBZ, you who argue that ki is so different from Chakra and Reiatsu. Energy equivalence rules. If Ichigo could break out of the dimension just by exerting energy, then anyone who can exert equal or more energy can do so as well. Goku happens to be capable of exerting universe and reality extinguishing levels of energy that dwarf Ichigo's so vastly that his energy is comparable in size to an atom when scaled to Goku's, which would be a solar system in comparison. You don't even fathom the difference in energy it takes to blow up a universe, and the energy it takes to blow up a town. Goku can break those casually. Could Ichigo break the ROSAT dimension though? PHUCK NO.Again, drop this argument unless you're saying that Kenny, Gremmy, Yamamoto, Aizen, Juha Bach, etc. can't break those "dimensions", or come relatively close for that matter. Oh! Even better, show me a SINGLE feat of destructive or energy capacity even ON PAR with Saiyan saga Vegeta or Goku, and you'll prove that Goku can't break all these illusions, "dimensions", and attacks CASUALLY in base form.
goku wouldnt even realize hes under these illlusions or genjutsu. kyoka is not something that can just be powered out of because it attacks the senses. it isnt energy based at all. If that were the case yamamoto would have just exerted enough spiritual pressure to get out of it because even aizen said he was not stronger than yamma ji at that point.
ive always said that ki and chakra are very very similar as they are both living energies. so genjutsu from naruto would in fact work.
i already admitted that he can break out out yukio's dimension because yukio is rather weak. but he cant break out of the garganta/dangai or the kamui world Goku might only be able to break out of them if he were ssj3 but this fight has rules and they clearly state he cant go super saiyan.
only those who have the ability or tools to open the senkaimon can get out the garganta/dangai. yes if gremmy were to go inside the garanta/dangai he would be stuck there too. ichigo himself has been stuck in there before.
same for kamui only those who have the kamui ability can control what goes in or out.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
There you go, dodging my argument again. Prove that those dimensions are the same as in DBZ, you who argue that ki is so different from Chakra and Reiatsu. Energy equivalence rules. If Ichigo could break out of the dimension just by exerting energy, then anyone who can exert equal or more energy can do so as well. Goku happens to be capable of exerting universe and reality extinguishing levels of energy that dwarf Ichigo's so vastly that his energy is comparable in size to an atom when scaled to Goku's, which would be a solar system in comparison. You don't even fathom the difference in energy it takes to blow up a universe, and the energy it takes to blow up a town. Goku can break those casually. Could Ichigo break the ROSAT dimension though? PHUCK NO.Again, drop this argument unless you're saying that Kenny, Gremmy, Yamamoto, Aizen, Juha Bach, etc. can't break those "dimensions", or come relatively close for that matter. Oh! Even better, show me a SINGLE feat of destructive or energy capacity even ON PAR with Saiyan saga Vegeta or Goku, and you'll prove that Goku can't break all these illusions, "dimensions", and attacks CASUALLY in base form.
Just face it goku can lose this fight give it up
Me and others within these forums have all said that chakra and ki are similar.
And gokus not breaking dimensions unless he goes ssj3 and he cant do that in this fight
Originally posted by yungz22
goku wouldnt even realize hes under these illlusions or genjutsu. kyoka is not something that can just be powered out of because it attacks the senses. it isnt energy based at all. If that were the case yamamoto would have just exerted enough spiritual pressure to get out of it because even aizen said he was not stronger than yamma ji at that point.ive always said that ki and chakra are very very similar as they are both living energies. so genjutsu from naruto would in fact work.
i already admitted that he can break out out yukio's dimension because yukio is rather weak. but he cant break out of the garganta/dangai or the kamui world Goku might only be able to break out of them if he were ssj3 but this fight has rules and they clearly state he cant go super saiyan.
only those who have the ability or tools to open the senkaimon can get out the garganta/dangai. yes if gremmy were to go inside the garanta/dangai he would be stuck there too. ichigo himself has been stuck in there before.
same for kamui only those who have the kamui ability can control what goes in or out.
1. Show me Kyoka Suigetsu controlling ki sense.
2. Yes, they would, but energy equivalence also works in Goku's favor because he can either sense out of any illusion, or overpower it.
3. So why could so many other espada and other characters in Bleach escape the garganta or dangai world? Ichigo and his dad left it with sheer reiatsu, so Goku could yawn himself out of it in base form.
4. That's not true. Gremmy would open a portal with sheer reiatsu, just like Goku would with a kiai. Ichigo also broke out of it with sheer reiatsu with his dad.
5. Only Kakashi has offensive Kamui, and that can still be sped out of by moving light speed. Tien and Kid Goku could escape it. Same with Obito's touch-kamui, making all Kamui's useless against Goku.
Originally posted by chasedown
Just face it goku can lose this fight give it upMe and others within these forums have all said that chakra and ki are similar.
And gokus not breaking dimensions unless he goes ssj3 and he cant do that in this fight
I already said he can... If we're taking him before fighting Piccolo. 👆
Exactly. Meaning that equivalence rules on their feats still apply here. 👆
He doesn't need to, because no one here that has broken from their series dimensions can exert energy on par with Nappa. This means that even Saiyan saga Goku can break any of those "dimensions", but none of the ones in his series. It's a little different to rip through reality itself, than it is to create portals to other dimensions. Even Kami did that multiple times. All of those "dimensions" have been broken out of with sheer power, by people with vastly lower feats of energy than Goku, meaning he could do so with a yawn.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I already said he can... If we're taking him before fighting Piccolo. 👆Exactly. Meaning that equivalence rules on their feats still apply here. 👆
He doesn't need to, because no one here that has broken from their series dimensions can exert energy on par with Nappa. This means that even Saiyan saga Goku can break any of those "dimensions", but none of the ones in his series. It's a little different to rip through reality itself, than it is to create portals to other dimensions. Even Kami did that multiple times. All of those "dimensions" have been broken out of with sheer power, by people with vastly lower feats of energy than Goku, meaning he could do so with a yawn.
You never said goku could lose you always stated goku stomps them
Dimensions are not stronger than each other the. Yukio's dimensions is like a cage thats only as strong as he is. The dangai and kamui worlds are different in that that they have there own rules one way in one way out just like the hyperbolic time chamber. Only ppl in dragonballz to break a dimension were ssj3 power level and up.
Nappa can break yukio's spiritual pressure made dimensions but he cant break natural dimensions like dangai and kamui world. The hyperbolic time chamber is the same as those.
The point is that goku wouldnt even know he is under kyoka or kotoamatsukami and if he were to start charging up obito and kakashi could just send him to the kamui world.
Ppl from aizens own universe that are stronger than him cant sense their way out of kyoka suigetsu what makes goku's ki sensing any different if we are using the energy equivilance rule.
With the equivalency rule on nobody has ever sensed their way out of kyoka even those stronger than him in his universe so it wouldnt work. With the equivalency rule off aizen has no ki for goku to sense so it wouldnt work.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Show me Kyoka Suigetsu controlling ki sense.2. Yes, they would, but energy equivalence also works in Goku's favor because he can either sense out of any illusion, or overpower it.
3. So why could so many other espada and other characters in Bleach escape the garganta or dangai world? Ichigo and his dad left it with sheer reiatsu, so Goku could yawn himself out of it in base form.
4. That's not true. Gremmy would open a portal with sheer reiatsu, just like Goku would with a kiai. Ichigo also broke out of it with sheer reiatsu with his dad.
5. Only Kakashi has offensive Kamui, and that can still be sped out of by moving light speed. Tien and Kid Goku could escape it. Same with Obito's touch-kamui, making all Kamui's useless against Goku.
1. He doesn't have to. Energy Equivalency covers it. Also Ki doesn't exist in the Bleach verse. That's like asking you to find me a scan of a Dragonball being used in Bleach.
2. That's not how that works. With equivalency rule Goku still has to follow the guidelines of how an ability works in order to break it. If it were simply a matter of being more powerful, Yamamoto would've broken of out Aizen's ability.
3. Espada and Garganta have, in a manner a speaking, keys to get out. Goku does not however you could argue that Instant Transmission eliminates almost every attempt to BFR him.
4. Ichigo broke out of Yukio's dimension because he was stronger than him. With the dangai world, Ichigo already had a way out thanks to his dad.
5. Both Obito and Kakashi can use Kamui offensively just in different forms. Kakashi's is just the safer of the two in this instance. That would be the case if Obito was fighting alone but he's not.
With a combination of hax powers from the HST it is very possible for Goku to loose. However all arguments end up circling back to mindset.
Could we all stop this whole searching for something to stop Goku and the whole Goku is immune to everything thing. Can we please factor in Speed, strength and so on. Because the assumption that characters just stand there and let themselves get attacked needs to stop. That being said. Goku would probably win through having an infinite range of ways to defeat them while they have could probably only win through some special hax strategies that may or may not work. The edge goes to Goku overall. But it isn't a shit stomp like other people are making out. If we played this scenario a few hundred times, GOku wouldn't always win.