Did Noah have help?

Started by bluewaterrider12 pages
Originally posted by Robtard

If you don't know, why pose the question to someone else?

😕

Are you wording this the way you intended?

1. Asking questions (and getting them answered by people who are kind enough and knowledgeable enough to authoritatively respond)
is one of the primary ways, perhaps THE primary way, people the world over learn.

(What do you do when you don't know the answer to something and want to find it out?)

2. Also, it was you who asked me a question, not the reverse.

Originally posted by Robtard

Pretty sure people being made out of dirt and then a rib of said dirt-man is not held as "fact" or "science" or "scientific fact".

Quite so.

It requires dirt plus water and amino acids to be held as science, IIRC.

Originally posted by Robtard

Bartley is an urban legend and said to have been inside a whale (not a great fish) for 15 hrs. Urban legends are not facts.

The Jonah problem is arguably the same class of problem as Easter Jesus ...

We'll get back to this one.

Even the snopes dot com website gives the verdict of "inconclusive" as to whether you're right about Bartley being a legend, but Bartley's case is different enough from Jonah's that it would warrant discussion regardless.

In the meantime, thank you for reading up on the name I gave.

Originally posted by Robtard

The lion was a cute little story.
I was referring to the notion that all animals (including dinosaurs) liv[ed] in harmony in the Garden of Eden before the fall.
Does not follow logic ...

6,000 year old Earth (also) spits in the face of logic ...

I'm not so certain about this.

Are you actually familiar with any of the theories that propose 6,000 year old Earth? One of the premises of almost all 6K models is a life/growth encouraging environment being stripped of nearly everything that made it so, and, arguably, a great deal of the full variety and richness by a cataclysmic world event.
Comparable, I suppose, to the great asteroid many posit struck Earth some 60 plus million years ago.
Except, of course, in the 6K model, whether that asteroid struck or not, the cataclysmic world event became known as the Great Flood.

None of us were there; presumably we don't have the ability to recreate exactly what happened or did not happen there, assuming that we'd even want to.
So we cannot actually reproduce the type of repeatable controlled experiments science formally calls for. We're rather left with playing detectives, relying on "forensic" evidence.

We theorize what occurred, construct a model of what should and should not have occurred given x and/or y and/or z, and see if we can fit new discoveries to that model, all the while examining whether our model is not so contradicted by what we find that we must change that model.

There are problems, though.

One is that we tend to assume that what we see today is not only the norm for everything we see today, but is ALSO the way things are supposed to run, and the way things were in the past, often without significant variation.

In another thread, for example, we discussed whether or not men in the past were more or less healthy than their modern counterparts.

Or rather, 2 other posters did. I don't remember now weighing in on the debate because I was only then searching for articles like the one I refer to here.

There's no real substitute for reading the article. I hope you'll do so. It is perhaps the equivalent of 2 pages in a book and should take no more than 5 to 7 minutes. Here is a brief excerpt that you might get one of the general drifts of my thought:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... [W]hile farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other nutrients. In one study, the Bushmen's average daily food intake (during a month when food was plentiful) was 2,140 calories and 93 grams of protein, considerably greater than the recommended daily allowance for people of their size. It's almost inconceivable that Bushmen, who eat 75 or so wild plants, could die of starvation the way hundreds of thousands of Irish farmers and their families did during the potato famine of the 1840s ...

... hunter-gatherers enjoyed a varied diet, while early farmers obtained most of their food from one or a few starchy crops. The farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition ... today just three high-carbohydrate plants -- wheat, rice, and corn -- provide the bulk of the calories consumed by the human species, yet each one is deficient in certain vitamins or amino acids essential to life ..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

Source: Jared Diamond, "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race," Discover Magazine, May 1987, pp. 64-66.
Jared Diamond
University of California at Los Angeles Medical School

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
😕

Are you wording this the way you intended?

Yes. You posed the question to Stealth in a manner that spoke of you knowing the answer and him being ignorant of it. It was a condescending question.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm not so certain about this.

Are you actually familiar with any of the theories that propose 6,000 year old Earth? One of the premises of almost all 6K models is a life/growth encouraging environment being stripped of nearly everything that made it so, and, arguably, a great deal of the full variety and richness by a cataclysmic world event.
Comparable, I suppose, to the great asteroid many posit struck Earth some 60 plus million years ago.
Except, of course, in the 6K model, whether that asteroid struck or not, the cataclysmic world event became known as the Great Flood.

None of us were there; presumably we don't have the ability to recreate exactly what happened or did not happen there, assuming that we'd even want to.
So we cannot actually reproduce the type of repeatable controlled experiments science formally calls for. We're rather left with playing detectives, relying on "forensic" evidence.

We theorize what occurred, construct a model of what should and should not have occurred given x and/or y and/or z, and see if we can fit new discoveries to that model, all the while examining whether our model is not so contradicted by what we find that we must change that model.

There are problems, though.

One is that we tend to assume that what we see today is not only the norm for everything we see today, but is ALSO the way things are supposed to run, and the way things were in the past, often without significant variation.

In another thread, for example, we discussed whether or not men in the past were more or less healthy than their modern counterparts.

Or rather, 2 other posters did. I don't remember now weighing in on the debate because I was only then searching for articles like the one I refer to here.

There's no real substitute for reading the article. I hope you'll do so. It is perhaps the equivalent of 2 pages in a book and should take no more than 5 to 7 minutes. Here is a brief excerpt that you might get one of the general drifts of my thought:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" ... [W]hile farmers concentrate on high-carbohydrate crops like rice and potatoes, the mix of wild plants and animals in the diets of surviving hunter-gatherers provides more protein and a better balance of other nutrients. In one study, the Bushmen's average daily food intake (during a month when food was plentiful) was 2,140 calories and 93 grams of protein, considerably greater than the recommended daily allowance for people of their size. It's almost inconceivable that Bushmen, who eat 75 or so wild plants, could die of starvation the way hundreds of thousands of Irish farmers and their families did during the potato famine of the 1840s ...

... hunter-gatherers enjoyed a varied diet, while early farmers obtained most of their food from one or a few starchy crops. The farmers gained cheap calories at the cost of poor nutrition ... [b]today just three high-carbohydrate plants -- wheat, rice, and corn -- provide the bulk of the calories consumed by the human species, yet each one is deficient in certain vitamins or amino acids essential to life ..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

Source: Jared Diamond, "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race," Discover Magazine, May 1987, pp. 64-66.
Jared Diamond
University of California at Los Angeles Medical School [/B]

I am. Cos maybe the Earth isn't 4.5 billions years old, but a 6K model is utterly ridiculous.

And if you're going to use the "who knows, no one was there", you're little more than Haming it (Ken Ham).

I'll check the article out later when I have time. I liked Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel'.

Originally posted by Robtard

I'll check the article out later when I have time. I liked Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel'.

Here's the click-able link for it --

I usually leave web addresses in URL format so that they remain explorable for people once these threads are archived, but, before that time, I like things to be as convenient as possible for current readers, too.

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

Source: "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race," Discover Magazine, May 1987, pp. 64-66.
Jared Diamond, University of California at Los Angeles Medical School

I tried to read it, but it was so bad... I couldn't continue.

Wasn't that bad. There's some great points (if the info is indeed accurate) there, imo. But it does try and force a class warfare angle onto you.

How it relates to the thread though and Blue's points, I have no idea, considering Diamond's talking of over 100,000 years of human history, which clearly doesn't gel with a 6,000 year old earth.

Originally posted by Robtard
Wasn't that bad. There's some great points (if the info is indeed accurate) there, imo. But it does try and force a class warfare angle onto you.

How it relates to the thread though and Blue's points, I have no idea, considering Diamond's talking of over 100,000 years of human history, which clearly doesn't gel with a 6,000 year old earth.

I have a headache today. I will try it later, after the drugs kick in. 😉

In short: We traded a simple healthy life where we had to resort to infanticide at times for Doritos, poor health, rock music and iPhones.

Oh, and class warfare where the rich do little but reap the most rewards.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I tried to read it, but it was so bad ... I couldn't continue.

Jared Diamond, writer of that article, is a Pulitzer prize winner.

More than that, by your own admission, you face a genuine challenge that most people do not:

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
@bluewaterrider
If you really want to spend the time to edit my posts in the quotes, that is fine. But do not blame me when it becomes a burden. I am extremely dyslectic.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583683&pagenumber=14

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

I use the language and the way I write to get my point out in as few words a possible. I'm not a good speller and sometimes I can't spell the word I want to say, so I say the word I can spell. I am extremely dyslexic, if you talked to me in person you would understand that I do not believe that I am better than you.

I have a lot of pain still in my heart, from the days when I HATED Christians. Talking to you and others is helping me understand this pain. I am sorry if, form time to time, you see the pain in me ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=354880&pagenumber=6

I've often wondered about this.

If you have such a degree of difficulty that even spell check does not help, how, in all seriousness, can you ever be confident you've understood what any author has to say to you, let alone one writing on religious themes?

I think of the following nearly every time I read a post from you now, and have for quite a long time ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning.
- Letter to George Bainton, 10/15/1888
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.twainquotes.com/Lightning.html

No less an authority than Mark Twain wrote that.
Yet he was merely speaking of the enormous loss (or gain) in literary power and comprehension to be had by the addition or omission of ONE word.

What must the experience be like of the person who sees five or six words per paragraph in arrangements that make no sense?

Here, Shaky ... you hinted in your post from many years ago that the SPOKEN word gives you far fewer problems ...
Perhaps some information contained where this URL links might be of use to you:

http://ncld.org/students-disabilities/assistive-technology-education/apps-students-ld-dyslexia-reading-difficulties

Originally posted by Robtard
In short: We traded a simple healthy life where we had to resort to infanticide at times for Doritos, poor health, rock music and iPhones.

Oh, and class warfare where the rich do little but reap the most rewards.

I think the term for your summary is "oversimplification", but I appreciate you taking the time to read that article just the same.

A click-able link version of my post with that Twain quote might be more accessible to most, so ...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I tried to read it, but it was so bad ... I couldn't continue.

Jared Diamond is a Pulitzer prize winner.

More than that, by your own admission, you face a genuine challenge that most people do not:

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
@bluewaterrider
If you really want to spend the time to edit my posts in the quotes, that is fine. But do not blame me when it becomes a burden. I am extremely dyslectic.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=583683&pagenumber=14

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

I use the language and the way I write to get my point out in as few words a possible. I'm not a good speller and sometimes I can't spell the word I want to say, so I say the word I can spell. I am extremely dyslexic, if you talked to me in person you would understand that I do not believe that I am better than you.

I have a lot of pain still in my heart, from the days when I HATED Christians. Talking to you and others is helping me understand this pain. I am sorry if, form time to time, you see the pain in me ...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=354880&pagenumber=6

I've often wondered about this.

If you have such a degree of difficulty that even spell check does not help, how, in all seriousness, can you ever be confident you've understood what any author has to say to you, let alone one writing on religious themes?

I think of the following nearly every time I read a post from you now, and have for quite a long time ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The difference between the almost right word & the right word is really a large matter--it's the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning.
- Letter to George Bainton, 10/15/1888
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.twainquotes.com/Lightning.html

No less an authority than Mark Twain wrote that.
And he was merely speaking of the enormous loss (or gain) in literary power and comprehension to be had by the addition or omission of ONE word.

What must the experience be like of the person who sees five or six words per paragraph in arrangements that make no sense?

Here, Shaky ... you hinted in your post from many years ago that the SPOKEN word gives you far fewer problems ...
Perhaps some information contained where this URL links might be of use to you:

http://ncld.org/students-disabilities/assistive-technology-education/apps-students-ld-dyslexia-reading-difficulties

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Jared Diamond, writer of that article, is a Pulitzer prize winner.

More than that, by your own admission, you face a genuine challenge that most people do not:

I've often wondered about this.

If you have such a degree of difficulty that even spell check does not help, how, in all seriousness, can you ever be confident you've understood what [b]any author has to say to you, let alone one writing on religious themes? [/B]

I can't see when a word in misspelled. My ability to understand is not hampered, because I do not have the same problem with reading. If you did a little reading about Dyslexia, you would realize that most people who are Dyslexic are average to genius level of intelligence. Best example is Albert Einstein.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I think of the following nearly every time I read a post from you now, and have for quite a long time ...

Perhaps you should think about other things like answering questions that have been asked of you.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
What must the experience be like of the person who sees five or six words per paragraph in arrangements that make no sense?

I do have that problem when reading your posts, but that has nothing to do with Dyslexia on my part.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Here, Shaky ... you hinted in your post from many years ago that the SPOKEN word gives you far fewer problems ...
Perhaps some information contained where this URL links might be of use to you:

Thanks, but no thanks. I can't help but feel that your sudden concern for my well being is hollow, and self serving.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I think the term for your summary is "oversimplification", but I appreciate you taking the time to read that article just the same.

Over simplifying it for Shaky was the exact purpose of my post. He's dyslectic and has trouble reading lengthy post.

So I won again.

Originally posted by Robtard
Over simplifying it for Shaky was the exact purpose of my post. He's dyslectic and has trouble reading lengthy post.

So I won again.

I didn't think it was OVER simplified. I took it as an encouragement for me to take the time and read it (I am very slow at reading).

Basally you were trying to help me in a nice way, so you win again. 😉

I should try not winning one day; see what that's all about.

Originally posted by Robtard
I should try not winning one day; see what that's all about.

Can I get the lottery numbers from you.pray 😂

Shaky, you perceive attacks from me even where none exist.

A perfect case in point was when you thought I was accusing you of being a sock and protested vehemently.

Originally posted by Robtard
Wasn't that bad. There's some great points (if the info is indeed accurate) there, imo. But it does try and force a class warfare angle onto you.

How it relates to the thread though and Blue's points, I have no idea, considering Diamond's talking of over 100,000 years of human history, which clearly doesn't gel with a 6,000 year old earth.

Jared should prove useful in the very near future; I'm only concerned right now with giving you a context for understanding my point of view.

I must say I'm happy to have discovered (and re-discovered) Jared, though.

Until yesterday, I had no idea he was that celebrated or that heralded across so many disciplines.
There's quite a bit more than that, too, but that's all I'll say concerning him for the present moment ...
(April 15th has quite a few tasks for me to accomplish in the real world.)

In the meanwhile ...

Hopefully you've guessed Jared's article was part of me "supplying things for consideration in the days to come".
Genuinely appreciate that you took the time to actually read through or examine most, if not all, of what I've presented to this point.

Last perceivable request (for this page, at least) ...

Read or re-read the following, please:

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WhiteFang/4chapter3.html

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WhiteFang/4chapter4.html

These are links to two chapters of the Jack London novel "White Fang" that Sonoma University has put online for students.

Need you to read them (~5 minutes each) and tell me, when you're done, or at least think about, the answer to 2 questions:

1. Given what we're told in Chapter 3, does the action of Chapter 4 make actual sense? Is it plausible?
2. Do you think Jack London actually witnessed what he wrote about, or anything like it? Why or why not?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Shaky, you perceive attacks from me even where none exist.

A perfect case in point was when you thought I was accusing you of being a sock and protested vehemently...

Point one: Maybe if you apologized for falsely accusing me of having JIA banned, then things would be better between us.

Point two: Being called a sock can lead to being banned, but I've been here so long that no one would believe you. I don't recall, but I was probably joking around.

I read parts of White Fang in middle school, iirc, not interested in reading excerpts out of it so you can apparently make some point which you've avoided making for pages now.