Did Noah have help?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The White Fang account, coupled with that word history of the bulldog, is an illustration that conventional wisdom, formed, typically by just assuming we know how the world works today, and then extrapolating backwards, is a poor substitute for actual investigation and research.

The Jared Diamond "worst mistake" article is an illustration of the same thing, incidentally.

Agreed, but who is doing that? It might be the people who write books, but not scientists.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The White Fang account, coupled with that word history of the bulldog, is an illustration that conventional wisdom, formed, typically by just assuming we know how the world works today, and then extrapolating backwards, is a poor substitute for actual investigation and research.

The Jared Diamond "worst mistake" article is an illustration of the same thing, incidentally.

Yes and no. While we did seemingly (if the facts in Diamond's article are true) trade a better diet for mass cheap calories, those mass cheap calories allowed us to achieve a far greater technological level. Coincidentally, watch "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond, he touches on agriculture and such as a reason why some civilizations advanced quickly while others lagged.

Yes, hunter gatherers would never walk on the moon or send rovers to Mars.

They'd never dream of walking on one of their gods.

Originally posted by Robtard
Except of course we do have a history of dog breeding to use as a source. Just as we do have scientific knowledge that paints of a picture that a 6,000k doesn't hold under stress test.

Ultimately, BWR has obfuscated the original point by introducing various sources as if they are relevant to the discussion. Now you feel my pain.

Yes and no. While we did seemingly (if the facts in Diamond's article are true) trade a better diet for mass cheap calories, those mass cheap calories allowed us to achieve a far greater technological level. Coincidentally, watch "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond, he touches on agriculture and such as a reason why some civilizations advanced quickly while others lagged.

Even more to the point, it is accessibility to farm staples like maize and wheat that allowed societies to flourish; on a simple hunter-gatherer diet, society would not have developed as quickly. Diamond, in his "Guns, Germs and Steel" explicitly points out that civilisation began where farming did, as you noted. If not having civilisation is worth better diets, then awesome red herring.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Ultimately, BWR has obfuscated the original point by introducing various sources as if they are relevant to the discussion. Now you feel my pain.

Even more to the point, it is accessibility to farm staples like maize and wheat that allowed societies to flourish; on a simple hunter-gatherer diet, society would not have developed as quickly. Diamond, in his "Guns, Germs and Steel" explicitly points out that civilisation began where farming did, as you noted. If not having civilisation is worth better diets, then awesome red herring.

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how his Jack London bit works into the thread.

👆 I loved that documentary.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how his Jack London bit works into the thread.

👆 I loved that documentary.

I think he is trying to say that sense we (science) was wrong in the past, then we (science) is wrong now.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think he is trying to say that sense we (science) was wrong in the past, then we (science) is wrong now.

That's fine; his White fang examples of dog breeds don't follow that lead though.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's fine; his White fang examples of dog breeds don't follow that lead though.

That is my best guess. I admit that I had to stretch to get that to fit.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I had to stretch to get that to fit.

Are you flirting with me? I am a married man!

Originally posted by Robtard
Are you flirting with me? I am a married man!

I should know better then to use the word stretch around you. 😂

Originally posted by Robtard
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out how his Jack London bit works into the thread.

👆 I loved that documentary.

Don't spend too much time thinking it over; he'll change the herring out for a new one soon.

Drinking game goal: Every time BWR does the following, take a drink -

[list][*] Uses a large block quote or Youtube video to emphasize a point he can't articulate in plain English.
[*] Applies a double standard of proof for religious arguments.
[*] Misunderstands the value of debating fairly.
[*] Cherry picks a large valid post only to focus on something small and ultimately unrelated.
[*] If he references more than three KMC threads using bare URLs, upend the entire bottle.
[*] If he mentions the anonymous millions reading his thread and awed by his arguments, also upend the bottle.
[*] If he addresses a point directly without any of the above, you have drank too much. Stop.[/list]

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Don't spend too much time thinking it over; he'll change the herring out for a new one soon.

Drinking game goal: Every time BWR does the following, take a drink -

[list][*] Uses a large block quote or Youtube video to emphasize a point he can't articulate in plain English.
[*] Applies a double standard of proof for religious arguments.
[*] Misunderstands the value of debating fairly.
[*] Cherry picks a large valid post only to focus on something small and ultimately unrelated.
[*] If he references more than three KMC threads using bare URLs, upend the entire bottle.
[*] If he mentions the anonymous millions reading his thread and awed by his arguments, also upend the bottle.
[*] If he addresses a point directly without any of the above, you have drank too much. Stop.[/list]

😆 drunk

Originally posted by Robtard
That's fine; his White fang examples of dog breeds don't follow that lead though.

Another comment on the "differentness" of bulldogs of today and yesteryear:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In time, the original old English Bulldog was crossed with the pug. The outcome was a shorter, wider dog with a brachycephalic skull. Though today's Bulldog looks tough, he cannot perform the job he was originally created for as he cannot withstand the rigors of running and being thrown by a bull, and also cannot grip with such a short muzzle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog

White Fang and the Webster word history was also a partial answer to your earlier response, Rob:

Originally posted by Robtard

The lion was a cute little story. I was referring to the notion that all animals (including dinosaurs) liv[ed] in harmony in the Garden of Eden before the fall.
Does not follow logic.

As we discussed earlier, one premise of 6K world is that most, if not all, were originally as vegetarian as that lion was.
Arguably, by many 6K models, this remained the case until the environmental stress of Great Flood; some models propose it took place far sooner.

You never explained why you thought harmony didn't make sense to you.
Presumably you are arguing that animals like the "lions and tigers and bears" you mentioned earlier in the thread could not be made to forego killing other animals. Just as likely, you are basing that entirely on what you suppose to be the norm today and extrapolating that to the past.

I showed the video of that tiger eating grass because I'm aware it's extremely difficult for people to even imagine such a thing, let alone envision it.
Yet you can see that tiger quite clearly chowing down on patches of grass.
Similar case of the lion; most would assume a lion could not even survive without meat. Yet the case of that lion seems fairly well documented, and she survived for many years on a vegetarian diet.
Bears? Contrary to popular opinion, the diet of many, if not most, bears today is largely vegetarian already; meat is consumed by them rarely, if at all.

Animals like pandas, who represent white and black Chinese "bears" to your man on the street?
Vegetarian. Subsisting largely on bamboo.

Note that these animals, much like the hunter-gatherer people mentioned by Jared Diamond, have largely been exiled to poor feeding and grazing grounds, too. There is little if any reason to think their environments yield the same kind of diet and diversity once enjoyed by their forefathers. Arguable if the quality of food that DOES exist is comparable to the food of yesteryear, too, much in the way the average mass-produced tomato is in no wise comparable to a garden-grown specimen ...

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Another comment on the "differentness" of bulldogs of today and yesteryear:...

Do you think that bulldogs are evolving before our very eyes?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[list][*] Uses a large block quote or Youtube video to emphasize a point he can't articulate in plain English.
[*] Cherry picks a large valid post only to focus on something small and ultimately unrelated.
[/list]

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Another comment on the "differentness" of bulldogs of today and yesteryear:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In time, the original old English Bulldog was crossed with the pug. The outcome was a shorter, wider dog with a brachycephalic skull. [b]Though today's Bulldog looks tough, he cannot perform the job he was originally created for as he cannot withstand the rigors of running and being thrown by a bull, and also cannot grip with such a short muzzle.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldog
[/B]

Drink count : 2.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
White Fang and the Webster word history was also a partial answer to your earlier response, Rob:

As we discussed earlier, one premise of 6K world is that most, if not all, were originally as vegetarian as that lion was.
Arguably, by many 6K models, this remained the case until the environmental stress of Great Flood; some models propose it took place far sooner.

You never explained why you thought harmony didn't make sense to you.
Presumably you are arguing that animals like the "lions and tigers and bears" you mentioned earlier in the thread could not be made to forego killing other animals. Just as likely, you are basing that entirely on what you suppose to be the norm today and extrapolating that to the past.

I showed the video of that tiger eating grass because I'm aware it's extremely difficult for people to even imagine such a thing, let alone envision it.
Yet you can see that tiger quite clearly chowing down on patches of grass.
Similar case of the lion; most would assume a lion could not even survive without meat. Yet the case of that lion seems fairly well documented, and she survived for many years on a vegetarian diet.
Bears? Contrary to popular opinion, the diet of many, if not most, bears today is largely vegetarian already; meat is consumed by them rarely, if at all.

Animals like pandas, who represent white and black Chinese "bears" to your man on the street?
Vegetarian. Subsisting largely on bamboo.

Note that these animals, much like the hunter-gatherer people mentioned by Jared Diamond, have largely been exiled to poor feeding and grazing grounds, too. There is little if any reason to think their environments yield the same kind of diet and diversity once enjoyed by their forefathers. Arguable if the quality of food that DOES exist is comparable to the food of yesteryear, too, much in the way the average mass-produced tomato is in no wise comparable to a garden-grown specimen ...

IIRC, all animals in the Garden before the fall were vegetarians, ie there was no killing in the Garden, hence "a paradise".

You're ignoring that predators look like predators because they hunt and eat meat.

One thing we do know, animals are generally suited to eat what they eat. So if lions were originally ctreated to "just eat grasses", why the meat specific teeth, the relatively short digestive tract that is ideal for a carnivorous diet, the forward facing eyes and ears that greatlu assist in stalking prey, the powerful build that is well suited in holding onto and taking down larger beast, the fangs that are perfectly suited to pierce/hold on to a neck and suffocate prey? Your one story about a vegetarian lion is at best an outlier, at worst, an outright lie.

I'm going to LoLz if the purpose of your 'bulldog of 1800's not like the bulldog of today' angle is to imply that lions (predators) in the Garden were vastly different than the ones today. Cos we do know why the bulldog changed superficially in appearance and had a180 change in temperament, it was due to human meddling/breeding. In fact, the bulldog is a human creation due to domestication and selective breeding.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
White Fang and the Webster word history was also a partial answer to your earlier response, Rob:

As we discussed earlier, one premise of 6K world is that most, if not all, were originally as vegetarian as that lion was.
Arguably, by many 6K models, this remained the case until the environmental stress of Great Flood; some models propose it took place far sooner.

You never explained why you thought harmony didn't make sense to you.
Presumably you are arguing that animals like the "lions and tigers and bears" you mentioned earlier in the thread could not be made to forego killing other animals. Just as likely, you are basing that entirely on what you suppose to be the norm today and extrapolating that to the past.

I showed the video of that tiger eating grass because I'm aware it's extremely difficult for people to even imagine such a thing, let alone envision it.
Yet you can see that tiger quite clearly chowing down on patches of grass.
Similar case of the lion; most would assume a lion could not even survive without meat. Yet the case of that lion seems fairly well documented, and she survived for many years on a vegetarian diet.
Bears? Contrary to popular opinion, the diet of many, if not most, bears today is largely vegetarian already; meat is consumed by them rarely, if at all.

Animals like pandas, who represent white and black Chinese "bears" to your man on the street?
Vegetarian. Subsisting largely on bamboo.

Note that these animals, much like the hunter-gatherer people mentioned by Jared Diamond, have largely been exiled to poor feeding and grazing grounds, too. There is little if any reason to think their environments yield the same kind of diet and diversity once enjoyed by their forefathers. Arguable if the quality of food that DOES exist is comparable to the food of yesteryear, too, much in the way the average mass-produced tomato is in no wise comparable to a garden-grown specimen ...

😂

Think about this: 100 million years ago, the Earth was populated with completely different animals then today. A 100 million years before that there was again a completely different array of life then today or any other time. When you look at these different life forms you will realized that these animals are related over time.

There was never any time that lions were vegetarian.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Do you think that bulldogs are evolving before our very eyes?

Presumably you're trying to say that significant changes in nature, not being as man-directed as breeding, take eons to affect?

For the kind of changes Rob and I have been discussing, however, that is not true, especially when we're looking at things like diet consumption habits.

That I can illustrate fairly easily, and in a way directly relevant to Rob's "Predator or plant eater" (lions, and tigers, and bears, oh my) proposal:

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As NATURE’s The Body Changers shows, some animals can undergo dramatic transformations when food or living space becomes scarce. The tadpoles of some toads and frogs, for instance, can morph from placid plant eaters to fierce cannibals if their pools threaten to run dry. By becoming meat eaters that snack on other tadpoles, the cannibals speed up their development, hoping to transform into toads before the water runs out.

Spadefoot toads, for example, live in dry areas. Adults wait to lay their eggs until temporary pools are formed by infrequent rainstorms. Though the tadpoles take only two weeks to develop into toads, sometimes the pools don’t last that long. The tadpoles get a tip that the pools are shrinking when they start bumping into each other and fairy shrimp, insect-like animals that also thrive in puddles. If a tadpole eats one of the shrimp, it can spark a transformation into a full-fledged cannibal.

Even the cannibals can be somewhat careful about their diets, however, as researcher David Pfennig of North Carolina State University has shown. In some species, the cannibals generally avoid eating their brothers and sisters, preferring to eat unrelated tadpoles instead. Exactly how they tell the difference between friend and foe isn’t known.

Tadpoles can also undergo other types of changes when conditions change. Some, for instance, change color and start producing a distasteful chemical when one of their friends is munched by a predator. The dying tadpole releases chemicals that warn other tadpoles that a predator is nearby. Within hours or days, nearby tadpoles turn bright colors, which, like a living billboard, warn predators that they don’t taste very good. It’s a change that helps ensure their survival.
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http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/the-body-changers/tadpole-tales/2925/