Ten Reasons Why the PT is Objectively Crap

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Which is unfounded entirely when I am specifically bitching about power creep quite often, expressing my disgust for "older" content like Dark Empire Luke's TK or Simus' head surviving, and ultimately irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I interpret this to mean you concede that the pre-film EU sucks and that Yoda: Dark Rendezvous is better than everything ever.

And I am pleased.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The award winning question was this: "Is Anakin's raw potential relevant to the plot?" The answer is, from this side, no, it is not. It offers no additional facets to the storyline, it doesn't alter our perception of the OT material, and it's largely useless. That it doesn't jive with established EU (even if that EU was stupid) is more to the point.

Anakin's raw potential is absolutely relevant to the plot: it's the very reason why he's of interest to the Jedi and why Palpatine intensely pursues him.

Is it necessary that he be a prophesied messiah figure whose connection to the Force be unsurpassed in all of time? Of course not, but you could apply that argument to pretty much every superwanked character in any Star Wars setting.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Except again, you're misusing the example. I've said before that older Sith and Jedi were on average better than the newer ones because of higher showings and advanced knowledge in the same fields both utilize (the Force, and dueling). Sparta, a Bronze-aged melee-oriented smaller fighting force versus a voluntary modern-aged multi-disciplinary range-oriented US military is a [b]bad analogy.[/b]

And again, you've consistently demonstrated a casual acceptance of EU wankery so long as it pertains to chronologically older characters and settings. Your issue here seems to be that, as far as George Lucas is concerned, the films revolve around a number of enormously powerful figures who aren't total feebs in comparison to their forefathers.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Go get laid.

Believe me, I'm working on it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And I granted both you and DP that some mention was made. That does not change its relevance to the plot.

...Except we've already established that Anakin being a prodigy is directly relevant to the plot of the prequels and commensurate with the storyline of the original trilogy.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So to refute my point, you're restating what I take issue with?

How does this even follow?

Your complaint is that he behaves differently in the PT than in the OT; my response is that he is different in the PT than in the OT. It follows that someone will behave differently at an earlier point in their life (X) than in a later part (Y) when the distance between X and Y is replete with critical events and developments.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm telling you that your assumption is not strongly supported by the source material, and Word of God would be definitive if it were present.

It would be like Thorin Oakenshield being a dick to Bilbo without any greed/Arkenstone context whatsoever; it wouldn't be consistent and it would beg for a proper explanation. If a proper explanation were not provided, it would be an example of bad storytelling. SW is not a series noted for its deep, hidden, or otherwise non-explicit story mechanics; this isn't rocket science.

Except that it is strongly supported by the source material and Word of God has remarked as much in various commentaries and interviews. You're pissy because TPM didn't include a textual explanation for Yoda's character arc in the opening crawl? You've gone to great lengths to establish yourself as someone who prefers darker, subtler works (lol Batman), you seem awfully perturbed that you weren't flat-out told what to think.

Which leads me to believe you're simply butthurt and fabricating a number of transparent reasons to justify it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I've seen it many times, since before you were born. Bro.

Yes, we get it, you're old.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes, but he didn't say "WTF murder the asshat lol". He was not happy with the arrangement, and ultimately it was a lack of killing Vader which had the best end-result. Had he simply killed him, he would have died at the Emperor's hands. The moral message of the OT was that violence is not always the answer, and the Jedi are about preserving life.

A message to which even OT!Yoda only pays lip-service and casually abandons when shit hits the fan. For all his newfound wisdom and restraint, we still see vestiges in the original trilogy of the person he was in the prequels: "Destroy the Sith, we must!"

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The PT largely lacked this message, and Yoda was not the same individual, in practice and in preach.

Because, for the last time, he wasn't the same individual. His experiences and epiphanies changed him between trilogies, though not entirely. There is continuity there; you just have a hard time appreciating the fact that Yoda is a dynamic character and the prequels, by design, depict him as a well-intentioned but deeply flawed leader who utterly fails to prevent a dark virtue thanks, in part, to arrogance, detachment, and ruthlessness.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
YOU: If X comes in later in the series and acts totally different, without appropriate in-story explanation as to why, it is character development.

#wut.

YOU: I NEED WEDGE TO FLY AROUND WITH A BANNER TACKED ON TO HIS X-WING EXPLAINING, IN VIVID DETAIL, WHY A YOUNGER YODA BEHAVES DIFFERENTLY FROM AN OLDER YODA BECAUSE NO ONE EVER CHANGES IN LIFE EVER

?

The PT is alright IMO. I feel like the EU for it really irons out the crinkles.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The PT is alright IMO. I feel like the EU for it really irons out the crinkles.

Yeah but it shouldn't have to.

I adore the EU but I understand that other people may not and these other people should not have to look for additional material to "iron out the crinkles" as you put it. The movies should be able tell their stories without needing supplementary material to provide clarification. That is one of the biggest problems with the PT.

Movie novelisations and EU novels are meant to add depth to the setting, not plug up plot holes.

I did not need to read this to know the PT sucks but good read nonetheless.

Still better than SWTOR. 👆

So bitter.

Glad I'm not the only one who got that impression from Janus's posts.

The PT is nothing compared to KOTOR. Even SWTOR is better

I'll grant you that KotOR is a better executed story than the PT; but the PT's story is better.

But a big fat lol @ SWTOR being better.

Its odd how your main criticism of Swtor is how it rides on the coat-tails of the movies, but ignore the fact that the PT does the exact same to the OT, by shoehorning in stuff like R2, C3PO, Boba Fett etc etc.

Pretty much the whole PT coasts on the success and iconography of the original movies.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its odd how your main criticism of Swtor is how it rides on the coat-tails of the movies, but ignore the fact that the PT does the exact same to the OT, by shoehorning in stuff like R2, C3PO, Boba Fett etc etc.

Shoe-horning in R2, C-3PO, Chewbacca, and Boba were all lackluster ideas, Janus is right on the money there.

But the big difference is that the prequels and the originals are part of the same saga and singular storyline. And both were masterminded by Lucas. It's okay for him to make use of his creations, even if I don't like how he did it.

Meanwhile, SWTOR is set thousands of years in the past and was given an opportunity to tell a unique story and failed spectacularly to do so. And Lucas had nothing to do with it. It rides on the popular imagery of the films because it couldn't stand on its own two feet. At the end of the day, the Star Wars films (even the prequels) will be remembered forever; SWTOR will disperse like dust in the wind. No one cares. 😬

Kinda like how everyone will remember Palpatine and no one will ever remember Vitiate. Or Bane. Or Ragnos. Or anyone other than Vader and Maul.

I look forward to reading this pile of wonder you typed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Shoe-horning in R2, C-3PO, Chewbacca, and Boba were all lackluster ideas, Janus is right on the money there.

But the big difference is that the prequels and the originals are part of the same saga and singular storyline. And both were masterminded by Lucas. It's okay for him to make use of his creations, even if I don't like how he did it.

Meanwhile, SWTOR is set thousands of years in the past and was given an opportunity to tell a unique story and failed spectacularly to do so. And Lucas had nothing to do with it. It rides on the popular imagery of the films because it couldn't stand on its own two feet. At the end of the day, the Star Wars films (even the prequels) will be remembered forever; SWTOR will disperse like dust in the wind. No one cares. 😬

Kinda like how everyone will remember Palpatine and no one will ever remember Vitiate. Or Bane. Or Ragnos. Or anyone other than Vader and Maul.

Man, what a hypocrite. What does is matter if its 'okay' for Lucas to do what he did? I never said it wasn't. It doesn't mean we can't criticise him for it, which you did so evidently you agree. It's 'okay' for Bioware to parallel things from the movies for their game, but you're free to not like how they did it just the same. Its just as lazy and creatively bankrupt in either case.

In Swtor's case though it's perfectly understandable considering they were going up against WoW. You need every ounce of mass appeal you can get when taking a shot at the king.

And L M A O at your pointless little snipes out of nowhere. Trying to start a fight, huh? Yeah, you're not bitter at all. And the prequels can stand on their own two feet? God, hypocrite ahoy! The prequels will be remembered forever as bad. Excuse my while I positively faint of jealousy! And about a million people care last time I checked boyo. Also Bane originated in the prequels so nyeh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Man, what a hypocrite. What does is matter if its 'okay' for Lucas to do what he did? I never said it wasn't. It doesn't mean we can't criticise him for it, which you did so evidently you agree. It's 'okay' for Bioware to parallel things from the movies for their game, but you're free to not like how they did it just the same. Its just as lazy and creatively bankrupt in either case.

You're free to criticize Lucas for the decision to shoe-horn aforementioned OT elements into the PT all you like; I agreed with the criticism. Ultimately, though, the man is merely utilizing his own creations in a chronologically earlier place in the same storyline.

That's far less egregious or reprehensible than SWTOR, far removed from the central Star Wars saga, shamelessly ripping off film elements and tropes in order to bolster their weak story with George's superior and more iconic product.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In Swtor's case though it's perfectly understandable considering they were going up against WoW. You need every ounce of mass appeal you can get when taking a shot at the king.

And they didn't have the talent or fortitude to craft a unique story that could stand on its own feet. KotOR did that just fine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And L M A O at your pointless little snipes out of nowhere. Trying to start a fight, huh? Yeah, you're not bitter at all.

Hey, if I were bitter at all, I wouldn't be criticizing George or the prequels at all. The fact that I have done so for years and continue to do so is proof enough that I'm able to look at both sides of this just fine. You're the one who has historically had a difficult time admitting SWTOR's flaws.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And the prequels can stand on their own two feet? God, hypocrite ahoy! The prequels will be remembered forever as [b]bad. Excuse my while I positively faint of jealousy! And about a million people care last time I checked boyo. Also Bane originated in the prequels so nyeh. [/B]

😂

The prequels, though connected to the OT narratively, tell an entirely different story. The originals depicted a relatively straightforward escapist tale: a band of do-gooders taking down an evil empire with a young man undergoing a hero's journey at the center. The prequels depict a more morally ambiguous story of a Byronic hero's corruption, the moral failures of the galaxy's well-intentioned protectors, and the engrossing success of a villain who manipulates a republic into legitimizing his tyranny. Two very different stories connected by a single, overarching narrative. The prequels, for better or worse, stand up on their own.

You can dislike it all you want; there's plenty about it to dislike. I'm not the one who has a problem acknowledging flaws for a certain era. 😉

but the PT's story is better.

Can't I do both?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're free to criticize Lucas for the decision to shoe-horn aforementioned OT elements into the PT all you like; I agreed with the criticism. Ultimately, though, the man is merely utilizing his own creations in a chronologically earlier place in the same storyline.

That's far less egregious or reprehensible than SWTOR, far removed from the central Star Wars saga, shamelessly ripping off film elements and tropes in order to bolster their weak story with George's superior and more iconic product.

Yeah and ultimately Bioware is just including elements we see in the OT like Star Destroyers and Moffs a bit earlier than we thought they originated. And having Vitiate be similar to Nihilus by utilising virtually the same technique to gain power.

The things Swtor takes are incredibly minor and nitpicky to complain about. Like ship designs and Vitiate wearing a black robe. Oh, the horror! 🙄

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And they didn't have the talent or fortitude to craft a unique story that could stand on its own feet. KotOR did that just fine.

They actually did. Nothing they 'ripped-off' has anything to do with the actual story of the Empire vs Republic conflict. All they did was based the game around some iconic elements, which is something they freely admitted to doing on purpose to give the player a chance to play iconic roles and fight iconic archetypes. They were not JUST being lazy. And the fact that there was a secret Sith Empire was established in Kotor and Kotor 2.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Hey, if I were bitter at all, I wouldn't be criticizing George or the prequels at all. The fact that I have done so for years and continue to do so is proof enough that I'm able to look at both sides of this just fine. You're the one who has historically had a difficult time admitting SWTOR's flaws.

Whaaaat? I JUST agreed with you that copying elements of the movies was creatively bankrupt and lazy. I criticised it as soon as we all saw Moffs and Star Destroyers running around in the early information. Its just that I, unlike you, actually played the game and thought 'you know, this game is actually pretty good and those things are really minor and don't really matter very much.' Which is true btw, this is a really dumb and minor point to get so hung up on. You're being a big baby about this.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
😂

The prequels, though connected to the OT narratively, tell an entirely different story. The originals depicted a relatively straightforward escapist tale: a band of do-gooders taking down an evil empire with a young man undergoing a hero's journey at the center. The prequels depict a more morally ambiguous story of a Byronic hero's corruption, the moral failures of the galaxy's well-intentioned protectors, and the engrossing success of a villain who manipulates a republic into legitimizing his tyranny. Two very different stories connected by a single, overarching narrative. The prequels, for better or worse, stand up on their own.

You can dislike it all you want; there's plenty about it to dislike. I'm not the one who has a problem acknowledging flaws for a certain era. 😉

No, it tells a story entirely reliant on the OT to work. By their very definition the Prequels do not stand on their own two feet. This is something inherent in them, its just that Lucas made it worse than it needed to be by cramming in characters and stuff from the OT in order to go 'Remember these guys? Remember how much fun they are? Yeah, they're here too, so now this film is fun too!' The Prequels are stories that no-one really wanted to be told, told to cash in on the success and love for the OT. The whole point is to cash in on how much of a good character Vader is. Which is much more 'egwegious or wepwehensiwle' than Swtor.

Yeah, neither am I. Unlike you though, I'm not unfairly criticising something without giving it a chance.

It's funny how butthurt you are about all this, bro. Going all the way back to TDK, you can't discuss something you love without being reduced to tears.

And I absolutely love it.

Nephthys
he Prequels are stories that no-one really wanted to be told,

Must explain the poor box office performance. 😂

And all the love for the trilogy.

Also, PUH-lease am I butthurt.

It's funny how butthurt you are about all this, bro. Going all the way back to TDK, you can't discuss something you love without being reduced to tears.

And I absolutely love it.

That's now two people you've accused of being butthurt, and the fact that you claim that you love it sounds like obvious project. You need not be so transparent.