Anakin/Dooku v. Nox/Emperor's Wrath.

Started by Stealth Moose5 pages
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which he does after Dark Rendezvous...or did you miss the whole
"You are no longer my apprentice" bit in TCWs.

Tbh, I didn't watch all of TCW, because I don't care that much for it. In any case "Relevance", because she was not a Sith of years' standing, period.

You are attaching undo importance to his dominance of her in this situation.

Nope. He senses her growing powerful, that's why he orders her dead. Note he didn't do so with Sora Bulq or any of Dooku's other acolytes.

Relevance?

Please, AOTCs Kenobi can't even follow Kit's movements and admitted inferiority to him.

Yet fought on even footing with him in their mock battle. Reread the book.

How about force choking Kenobi and Skywalker?

Savage surprised TK choked Ventress and Dooku. Context is important, unless you think Savage is a top tier Force user.

How does similar in intensity and power to Sidious' translate to inferior to Thanaton?

One word: measurability.

The effects on similar targets details how effectively in turn we can measure a feat for objective analysis.

Sidious' lightning caused Mace and Yoda to both struggle.

Dooku's lightning is almost casually blocked by Obi-Wan, and I think even less casually blocked by Anakin and Ventress.

There's a significant margin in effect. It is therefore reasonable to conclude it is weaker by a significant margin than Sidious'. And Thanaton's lightning is if nothing else quite comparable to Sids'. Go watch some videos on it. Educate yourself.

"This is Anakin Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi of his generation, [B]of perhaps any generation."
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive."[/b]

... Who is not at this point a high level Force user, master, and Sith.

Again, relevance?

Bulq is among the Order's finest.

See above. Relevance.

Obviously Nox's power played a huge part, but to say the Nexus didn't play a part is ridiculous.

To suggest the nexus was instrumental in the feat without any evidence whatsoever is much more ridiculous. Thanaton was also on a nexus, as was every Sith in the academy, the Dark Council, and the five muggles loading at the docks.

Again, relevance?

Example:
Dooku can dominate Ventress on any day with the force, on Vjun however he does it with a finger.

Prior to gathering more than one soul, Thanaton does the same with Nox. He's in another league altogether, and here Nox as a mere apprentice took out Khem with a training saber and outfought several Sith Lords.

Not really. Thanaton gives Nox a pretty good fight on Corellia and yet gets utterly stomped on Korriban. The difference being setting imo.

That's not true at all.

No quite relevant because in the presence of Sidious (who's pretty much a nexus on his own) his lightning is depicted as on par with the Dark Lord's.

1. Proof that Sids is a nexus. This is a new assertion and requires new evidence.

2. Proof that Sids' didn't influence or aid Dooku's lightning. Same criteria.

Nox>Thanaton on neutral ground as shown on Corellia.

Nox>>Thanaton on Korriban.

You're exaggerating the effect of the nexus to downplay the feat because it doesn't fit your bias.

This is quanning.

Thanaton gets his shit pushed in by Tyranus.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Dooku will get in close to him with his Makashi and pwn.

See above.

Also the point wasn't that Dooku destroyed Ventress, its the ease at which he does so; far easier than Nox pwns Thanaton.

That's entirely exaggerated. Ventress has never shown abilities on par with anyone on the Dark Council, so to say that her dominance is greater ignores context.

So here's your argument thus far:

1. Red herrings.
2. Assertions without proof.
3. Downplaying opposition.

You got anything else?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Tbh, I didn't watch all of TCW, because I don't care that much for it. In any case "Relevance", because she was not a Sith of years' standing, period.

Bias confirmed. Actually she would have been a Sith for about 2 years.


You are attaching undo importance to his dominance of her in this situation.

Not his dominance, the manner in which he did it.


Relevance?

She was his proper Sith Apprentice at her peak.


Yet fought on even footing with him in their mock battle. Reread the book.

Prove Kit was going all out in the mock battle. By that logic Saesee Tiin is as powerful as Mace.


Savage surprised TK choked Ventress and Dooku. Context is important, unless you think Savage is a top tier Force user.

Context is important. Its still an important feat for Ventress.


One word: [b]measurability
.

The effects on similar targets details how effectively in turn we can measure a feat for objective analysis.

Agreed.


Sidious' lightning caused Mace and Yoda to both struggle.

Sidious is also the most powerful Sith Lord in history. Thanaton is far from that.


Dooku's lightning is almost casually blocked by Obi-Wan, and I think even less casually blocked by Anakin and Ventress.

Kenobi is a Soresu/ defense specialist. It takes Skwalker and Ventress visible effort to block casual blasts from the Count.


There's a significant margin in effect. It is therefore reasonable to conclude it is weaker by a significant margin than Sidious'. And Thanaton's lightning is if nothing else quite comparable to Sids'. Go watch some videos on it. Educate yourself.

Thanaton's lightning isn't comparable to Sidious'. It is just flashy.


... Who is not at this point a high level Force user, master, and Sith.

Again, relevance?

Who cares? He's one of the most powerful Jedi. You behave as if being a Sith automatically makes one more powerful.


To suggest the nexus was instrumental in the feat without any evidence whatsoever is much more ridiculous. Thanaton was also on a nexus, as was every Sith in the academy, the Dark Council, and the five muggles loading at the docks.

Yes but who do you think is going to benefit more? Thanaton? Or Nox who also has six spirits each also benefiting from a Nexus.


Prior to gathering more than one soul, Thanaton does the same with Nox. He's in another league altogether, and here Nox as a mere apprentice took out Khem with a training saber and outfought several Sith Lords.

Relevance? They are all featless/ cannot hold a candle to Dooku.


That's not true at all.

Yeah right...that's why when Thanaton retreats Nox forces him to the ground with TK...oh wait.


1. Proof that Sids is a nexus. This is a new assertion and requires new evidence.

He is described as a "Black hole of the dark side.",
"he had become a nexus of the dark side capable of tearing apart the fabric of space."- DE Endnotes

2. Proof that Sids' didn't influence or aid Dooku's lightning. Same criteria.

I don't have to prove a negative.


You're exaggerating the effect of the nexus to downplay the feat because it doesn't fit your bias.

I don't really have a bias. I have played TOR and adamantly watched the class quests I haven't played, and have watched TCWs, unlike you who hasn't even scene most of the episodes.


This is quanning.

Is this a word...


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

"Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith"
"Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy"
Also

See above.


That's entirely exaggerated. Ventress has never shown abilities on par with anyone on the Dark Council, so to say that her dominance is greater ignores context.

Wut? You are saying Ventress is inferior to Vowrawn and Xedrix?


So here's your argument thus far:

1. Red herrings.
2. Assertions without proof.
3. Downplaying opposition.

You got anything else?

All yours have been are.
1. Thanaton's lightning is cooler and therefore better.
2. Downplaying of PT high tiers
3. Wrongly shifting the burden of proof.

I have posted quotes and videos contradicting all your claims.

2 years = Sith peak.

👆

You win more internets, Stark.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2 years = Sith peak.

👆

You win more internets, Stark.

I like how you admit that Sidious is stated to be a nexus, and the fact that Dooku has successfully clashed with Yoda in a contest of the force. Sorry but that's above anything Thanaton or Nox has shown.

I'm pretty sure Thanaton and Nox could throw some small objects and shoot lightning at Yoda, which is the extent that he and Dooku "clashed" in AotC.

I actually just picked out that one thing and furiously scrolled down to say something snarky, while going through four goddamn gifs before finding a still that would host. Google image search fails hard.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure Thanaton and Nox could throw some small objects and shoot lightning at Yoda, which is the extent that he and Dooku "clashed" in AotC.

Not referring to that.

"Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force."

I don't see the impressiveness there. That Dooku wasn't instantly overwhelmed? Give him a cookie, he wasn't instantly physically overpowered by a 2 foot tall midget, who was overpowering him anyway. Yoda was going easy on him anyway, considering Yoda overpowered Sidious in a saber lock, the man who held off Savage Opress with one hand.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see the impressiveness there. That Dooku wasn't instantly overwhelmed? Give him a cookie, he wasn't instantly physically overpowered by a 2 foot tall midget, who was overpowering him anyway. Yoda was going easy on him anyway, considering Yoda overpowered Sidious in a saber lock, the man who held off Savage Opress with one hand.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see the impressiveness there. That Dooku wasn't instantly overwhelmed? Give him a cookie, he wasn't instantly physically overpowered by a 2 foot tall midget, who was overpowering him anyway. Yoda was going easy on him anyway, considering Yoda overpowered Sidious in a saber lock, the man who held off Savage Opress with one hand.

Uh, right after that Yoda commends his bladework. And that two foot tall Midget is the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known so yes its impressive. Especially when his equal lol blitzes the Order's finest (and yes Dark Council members wouldn't last any differently against him). Yoda would low-diff most if not all of the Dark Council.

No, he wouldn't, because he wouldn't.

#kmclogic.

I thought we were discussing Dooku's Force abilities, not his lightsaber skills. This discussion is meant to be about whether Nox can overpower Dooku in the Force, not whether he can beat him in a lightsaber fight. Dooku obviously holds the advantage there.

So what I meant was, I don't see how that's impressive in terms of Dooku's Force capabilities.

Plus, as I said Yoda was going easy on him in the saberlock, wanting to quip with him for a bit.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, he wouldn't, because he wouldn't.

#kmclogic.

Vitiate makes it plenty clear that the gap between the Dark Council and himself is sizable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I thought we were discussing Dooku's Force abilities, not his lightsaber skills. This discussion is meant to be about whether Nox can overpower Dooku in the Force, not whether he can beat him in a lightsaber fight. Dooku obviously holds the advantage there.

So what I meant was, I don't see how that's impressive in terms of Dooku's Force capabilities.

Plus, as I said Yoda was going easy on him in the saberlock, wanting to quip with him for a bit.

They are directly correlated. Nox isn't getting through Dooku's defences on force power alone.

Lightsaber-related abilities =/= Force-related abilities.

Nox would overwhelm Dooku with lightning.

Team 1 should win this. As Lord Stark has already pointed out Dooku has stomped characters like Ventress and Sora Bulq, both of whom I'd place on a tier similar to Thanaton. And Anakin seems to have an advantage over the Wrath.

Why would you put Bulq on a similar level to Thanaton? Sure, with lightsabers, but not the Force.

With Ventress, Dooku can't stomp her like he did on Vjun in actual combat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would you put Bulq on a similar level to Thanaton? Sure, with lightsabers, but not the Force.

With Ventress, Dooku can't stomp her like he did on Vjun in actual combat.

Bulq is superior to Thanaton in sabers and inferior in the force. Superior duelist defeats superior force user excellent

Yeah but we're discussing Force abilities still.

Didn't Dooku stomp Bulq with lightning?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would you put Bulq on a similar level to Thanaton? Sure, with lightsabers, but not the Force.

Bulq knows and helped devlop Vaapad. I'd put him well beyond Thanaton is sabers. Overall, I'd say they are a fairly similar level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With Ventress, Dooku can't stomp her like he did on Vjun in actual combat.

He stomped her with lightning in his duel against her and the nightsisters.

She was caught off guard and with her lightsaber above her head and unable to block the lightning. She assumed he was down.